6175 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

BY AIMO

[Kisari]

I am NOT telling anyone they should not like Cole (figure I have to get that out of the way first).

 

After reading Asunder, I am going to have to do some serious metagaming not to attack him immediately.

 

He murders mages simply for, well, why exactly?  We know he won't disappear if he doesn't murder them.  We know he's "possibly" drinking in their souls.  We'll have to see what it is exactly he did to Lambert.  Because they: "Want to die." is not a good reason to kill someone and then do "something" to them. 

 

Lambert is completely correct about everything he says about Cole - there's nothing indicating he's not a demon that totally manipulated Rhys.

 

Note:  "IF" he's a manipulative demon - do you think Bioware would write in his Bio.  "I'm Cole, and I'm going to manipulate your Inquisition to my own ends!!! Mwahahahaah." 

 

Seeing as I don't find mindless devotion to the point of murder as a great quality... I cannot see any aspects of Cole in Asunder that were anything BUT demonic.

 

====

 

So why am I posting in the fan thread? 

I'm honestly really baffled and curious what people see in this thing.

 

Note 2: The Cole we meet isn't the Cole that died.  It's a simulacrum.  So the "feels" for the daddy abuse... doesn't apply to this thing for me.

 

Lastly, I repeat, I am not trying to crap on anyone's love for Cole.  Love away.  You're in your own game, so by all means.  I just feel strongly against him and I'd like some differing opinions.

He says why he was murdering them in the book; because he thought he was going to disappear. Hence when he stopped feeling that way, he stopped murdering. I guess you can not believe that if you want to, but it is already stated why. I've noted people that hate him refuse to actually believe what he says in the book.
He's not a human so holding him to human standards of morality is an oversimplification and kind of silly. But I'm not really going to argue about any of your other points because I truly do not care that he murdered people. Our companions and PC murder people all the time.

I guess I think it's silly when people chose not to give a character a chance at all. Considering they are fictional people, and no one has ever really been hurt... and going into the game your Inquisitor wont have known what Cole did or what he is(well, unless he tells us. but we don't know that at this point). So wouldn't it be that you are metagaming if you chose to auto attack him? You are taking outside info your Inquisitor doesn't have to judge him. So go ahead and hate him, I really don't care. But you are meta-gaming if you chose to kill him on sight for what happened in Asunder. Not the other way around.

For me, I like Cole because I like monsters and demons. And I especially love when they are struggling with their "humanity" and existence.
Has nothing to do with the human Cole's memory junk.

 

[Medhia_Nox]

I've never understood the: "Not a human, not bound by human morality thing."

Bacteria aren't bound by human morality either - and we have an entire profession (several actually) devoted to making sure the negative one's are destroyed.

[Thinvesil]

I've never understood the: "Not a human, not bound by human morality thing."

Bacteria aren't bound by human morality either - and we have an entire profession (several actually) devoted to making sure the negative one's are destroyed.

Unlike bacteria It has personality and seems to follow a good goals, or at least It tries to help people. That's a pity if you haven't seen this in the book. That was quietly obvious.

[Kisari]

I've never understood the: "Not a human, not bound by human morality thing."

Bacteria aren't bound by human morality either - and we have an entire profession (several actually) devoted to making sure the negative one's are destroyed.

Do bacteria talk, show emotions and make decisions like a person...? Not really a good comparison to Cole.
Since we are talking about Cole, a creature that has shown free will and the ability to think critically of his own actions and make decisions, this really doesn't apply. How can you expect a demon/spirit that's been living in a pit completely alone for years to have any righteous morals or understanding of humanity? He never went to school, never interacted with people to learn what is "right" and "wrong". In his mind he was doing what he had to survive because he thought he was going to die.

I also didn't say he isn't completely bound by human morality. Cole obviously has his own morals from the description given of him in Inquisition. But to look at him and treat his situation as equal to those of any living person and judge him in the same way, is silly. His entire existence and circumstances are pretty unique.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Kisari:  We're simply two sides of the same coin.  What you see as silly, is that anyone would expect him to have morals, because he's not a person. What I think is silly, is that anyone would treat him like a person, because he's not a person.  

 

To you, he's a being that killed a few people out of total innocence. 

 

To me, he's a being that is incompatible with our world, precisely because killing isn't something beings like it even consider.

 

That he can mimic speech, emotion, and expression is not something I will readily consider if Cole betrays himself as the same being from the books. And given his final seen... this creature has learned nothing.

 

That being said, I did confess that doing anything to Cole before letting the game decide for me, was metagaming (which, as you would say about killing, I don't actually care about).  Still, I prefer not to metagame, and will do everything I can to not let me real opinion of the character change my choices.  I simply expressed having a difficult time not wanting to initially react poorly. 

 

Maybe you're fascinated by this new being in the world.  As you said, entities learning how to be human interests you.  I would never cavort with DA spirits - and the character I'm going to play will be very much against them... still, spirits like what possessed Wynne would give my character reluctant pause.  If they're trying to "be human" - they're at least learning beneficial human traits.

 

Just like a real child that learns corrupted human traits through terrible experiences... Cole has learned how to be human alright... in all the worst ways.  

 

If he acts like he does in the book... in my game... the best we'll have is that he disappears from my Inquisition.  The worst is that I'll imprison him so that he cannot escape to the Fade (my punishment for all Fade entities - as "killing" doesn't work from my understanding).  

 

To me - it is no different than isolating bacteria and destroying them.  Which, btw... if harmful bacteria could speak - I really don't think I still wouldn't try to cure myself by killing them wholesale.

[Uirebhiril]

I am NOT telling anyone they should not like Cole (figure I have to get that out of the way first).

 

After reading Asunder, I am going to have to do some serious metagaming not to attack him immediately.

 

He murders mages simply for, well, why exactly?  We know he won't disappear if he doesn't murder them.  We know he's "possibly" drinking in their souls.  We'll have to see what it is exactly he did to Lambert.  Because they: "Want to die." is not a good reason to kill someone and then do "something" to them. 

 

 

Unless I'm really missing something here, it seems more like wanting to attack him immediately IS the metagaming. While I suppose it's possible that Cole will appear and infodump the whole backstory of Asunder at your Inquisitor, I'm doubting that's what will actually happen. So your character will know he murdered mages how...? It's obvious Cole isn't "one of us," but why and how might not be immediately available knowledge to your character in the game.

 

As for what I see in Cole, well, he's an interesting character and I'm curious where the story goes. Good enough reason for me to want to have him on the team, and I'm sure at least a couple of my characters will be fine with it too. Even if Cole "turns evil" and tries to murder the whole Keep as they sleep, it won't exactly be end of game. You would probably have a fight and be done with it. Or just have to reload. That part is all just whatevs to me.

[Thinvesil]

If he acts like he does in the book... in my game... the best we'll have is that he disappears from my Inquisition.  The worst is that I'll imprison him so that he cannot escape to the Fade (my punishment for all Fade entities - as "killing" doesn't work from my understanding).  
 
To me - it is no different than isolating bacteria and destroying them.  Which, btw... if harmful bacteria could speak - I really don't think I still wouldn't try to cure myself by killing them wholesale.

"You humans are all racist!" ©

[Kisari]

@Kisari:  We're simply two sides of the same coin.  What you see as silly, is that anyone would expect him to have morals, because he's not a person. What I think is silly, is that anyone would treat him like a person, because he's not a person.  

I still treat my pets with respect because they are alive and deserve to live as much as any creature, even if they aren't people. I wouldn't expect them to follow my line of morals(or have any), but that doesn't mean they deserve to be killed on sight for what they might do.
 

To you, he's a being that killed a few people out of total innocence.

Never said he killed out of innocence. He killed out of ignorance.
 

To me, he's a being that is incompatible with our world, precisely because killing isn't something beings like it even consider.

Again, Cole does come to the understanding that his killings were wrong and stops. Is that not "considering"?
Or is that simply not good enough and no matter how much Cole proves himself it wont be good enough?
 

To me - it is no different than isolating bacteria and destroying them.  Which, btw... if harmful bacteria could speak - I really don't think I still wouldn't try to cure myself by killing them wholesale.

It's not just about being able to speak. If bacteria could choose not to do the things it instinctively does, and stop doing it, you wouldn't need to kill them. But they don't because they don't make choices. Cole's default nature may be one that is harmful, but he has already chosen to stop and try to be good.
 

That he can mimic speech, emotion, and expression is not something I will readily consider if Cole betrays himself as the same being from the books. And given his final seen... this creature has learned nothing.

Just as you view killing Cole to be okay I'm sure Cole believes killing Lambert is the same. To him, Lambert is someone that did terrible things, attacked him and hurt his friends. It was no longer about killing to stay alive, so I wouldn't consider him killing Lambert to be the same as his killing in the first chapter. Lambert did attack Rhys and Cole, killed Evangeline(and by extension Wynne), and attacked the gathering of mages. Though technically we don't know that he killed Lambert. It's only assumed.

As the PC we take vigilante justice into our own hands and murder people going against us constantly. I don't see a difference.
 

Even if Cole "turns evil" and tries to murder the whole Keep as they sleep, it won't exactly be end of game. You would probably have a fight and be done with it. Or just have to reload. That part is all just whatevs to me.

Yeah, basically. Unless it turns out like that bug queen thingy in ME3 where if you didn't do something in the first one and you recruit her she goes berserk and murders a bunch of your team, and there is no way to avoid it. But even then, I personally have no problem with the idea of Cole going "evil" or secretly manipulating everyone for his own ends. I don't think he is, as there is no proof for it other than assumptions because he is a demon/spirit.

[Fredward]

I like these threads sooooo much more with a divisive opinion or two thrown in.

 

Right, @medhianox. So Cole as an evil, manipulative entity that played Rhys like a fool. Doesn't really fit. I mean we had Cole PoV's and there was no sense whatsoever of any duplicity in them. Unless David was being extremely meta and writing Cole's thoughts as if Cole was aware of the readers and trying to fool us too, which... yeah. Cole did kill people, I won't try and moralize it, he felt as if his existence depended on this act and killed to survive. This makes him seem pretty human actually, I genuinely can't believe that the majority of people would choose death if there was any kind of out. It's been a while since I read it so I don't remember if he actually does need to kill people to stay or if he just believed that, either way in his mind it was survival. Can't really comment on Lambert since we don't know if Cole did kill him but honestly many of our companion have killed people for much less, why castigate him to a  higher degree? As to his nature, it seems likely that he's something along the lines of the Justice/Anders fusion, it MIGHT have been an evil demon exploiting a dying child to get a foothold in this world but Cole is no longer that and you can't enact retroactive 'justice' without harming this new being, who is innocent. Of that crime.

 

As for him 'not belonging here' and whatever that's just something we're gonna have to disagree on. For me restricting someone's choice on the basis of something like the type of species [for lack of a  better word] they are is problematic to begin with. But I also have a problem with the idea of 'belonging.' I mean what does that entail? What gives someone the right to exist somewhere? Simply being born there? Something totally random and beyond all control? I dunno. Randomness is always a bad basis for passing judgement. It's the kind of black and white decision making that always rustles my jimmies. Declaration rather than reasoning. A good reason for him not being in the real world would be if it turns out that he does need to kill people to continue to exist, obviously this is unlikely to be a problem during the course of the game as there will be plenty of people to kill, but afterwards? Will he need to coax people into attacking him so he can justify self defense on top of self preservation? When does one human/spirit life become too expensive? But since we don't know if that's the case it's unfair/potentially pointless to ask that question.

[Fortlowe]

It's very much up for debate whether the creature has become this friendly ghost or it is still the murderous spirit wallowing in the pain of the desperate.

[Thinvesil]

or it is still the murderous spirit wallowing in the pain of the desperate.

While this creature is trying to do the best it could do, we can except this, I suppose.

[Adaar the Unbound]

If you felt that you had to kill people to live, and you were surrounded in people who (atleast you felt) wanted to die, than you might have done the same thing he did. A lot of people would have. Plus, he doesn't remember his life as a human so he really doesn't know much of how we see murder. Also, Cole has changed a lot and dedicated himself to helping others even if everyone forgets it was him who helped them. I don't see a real reason to hate Cole.

[frostajulie]

Lambert deserved his death and I was ecstatic when Cole finally killed understanding what he was doing.  It was the first kill where he was no longer a victim of his ignorance, anxiety, and innocence.  While he did kill others the narrative in Asunder makes it pretty clear he did not kill with malice but more took advantage of the situation in order to survive as many have pointed out- and the psychology of movies such as SAW- when survival is at stake even if its just the perception that survival is at stake many people would choose to kill in order to live. IMO it is a completely understandable drive.  Cole, once he learns that it is wrong, even if he only stops initially because of his affection for Rhys he does stop and his morality is clearly shown to be progressing.  Whatever he is he is not evil or a monster and he seems to have the instincts that drive him progressively toward a more standard morality of whats right and whats wrong. I am most excited for his character development in the game and have to say of all the characters he is my favorite just because I can see so much story potential for him.

[AresKeith]

Lambert deserved his death and I was ecstatic when Cole finally killed understanding what he was doing.  

 

I don't think his death was confirmed

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think his death was confirmed

It isn't. He is just missing right now. Which makes me suspect he will be alive and show up in DAI. Maybe even as one of the Agents of Chaos. 

[Thinvesil]

I apologize, but why do you refer this as He, nor as It? Does the spirits have a gender?

[Phate Phoenix]

I apologize, but why do you refer this as He, nor as It? Does the spirits have a gender?

 

I refer to Cole as a 'he', because that's how he's referred to in his character profile and in Weekes's interview. I'm just not comfortable referring to characters as 'its' that have used gendered pronouns in the past. Not knocking anyone who does call Cole an 'it', but I won't be. Not unless Cole requests, in game, to be called an 'it'.

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

I apologize, but why do you refer this as He, nor as It? Does the spirits have a gender?

Because its accurate? Coles body is quite obviously male. 

[Elite Midget]

I can't help but get the feeling that Cole, against his will, maybe be forced against the Inquisitor for whatever reason and maybe be quite tragic a fate no matter what you do.

[frostajulie]

I don't think his death was confirmed

True but until I hear otherwise leave me my crumbs of vindictive glee. I totally hated that guy.

[frostajulie]

Also, I refer to Cole as a he because anytime his perspective come up in Asunder or anytime Rhys or Evangeline talked to him Cole was male. Cole very clearly identifies as male.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

True but until I hear otherwise leave me my crumbs of vindictive glee. I totally hated that guy.

Well look on the bright side, if he is alive he'll almost definitely be in DAI. So you can kill him yourself. Or let Cole get another try. 

[Fortlowe]

If you felt that you had to kill people to live, and you were surrounded in people who (atleast you felt) wanted to die, than you might have done the same thing he did. A lot of people would have. Plus, he doesn't remember his life as a human so he really doesn't know much of how we see murder. Also, Cole has changed a lot and dedicated himself to helping others even if everyone forgets it was him who helped them. I don't see a real reason to hate Cole.

That it thought it was dying is also very much up for debate.

[Jigglypuff]

king cole will steal the show mark my words, most threads will be about him over other companions.