6175 réponses à ce sujet

[MissMagi]

You'll hurt his feelings!

[Master Warder Z_]

You'll hurt his feelings!

 

*Puts on best Martin Sheen voice*

 

Ahem

 

"It doesn't have feelings. It's a construct of the Fade."

[Eveangaline]

So if we have another "in the fade" quest and we bring Cole along....what will he look like? Would it be the same form he has when outside the fade? Or something more spirity?

[Fredward]

So did it think it was dying before it started killing people? Also it does in fact lie in its thoughts. It thinks of itself as a boy named Cole that died (possibly by its hands). How did it arrive at that notion if not by self delusion?

 

Ah, and there might be where our little disagreement originates. Lying presumes that you are trying to hide a truth, of if you believe lying by omission is a thing, carefully avoiding a truth. If you yourself do not know this truth it cannot be lying. It's like saying a blind person is lying if they can't describe the sky. Cole/demon-fusion-thingy repressed traumatic experiences like his backstory, the fact that he was left to starve to death in a tiny cell and then quite probably his own possession. As a byproduct of this he forgot his true nature. You can't be lying if you yourself can't recall the truth. Delusional? Sure. Dangerously delusional? Mayhaps. Consciously lying for eeeeevvvvviiiiillllll purposes? No.

 

I can understand disliking something purely because it exists. And by that I mean academically, I understand the mechanics of prejudice. Not something I agree with and it usually goes with reasoning I can never quite wrap my head around but I understand that it exists. What I don't really understand is how people can use it, this internal affective dislike, as if it was a logically sound platform from which to launch judgements. I mean you are actively reinterpreting things in the book to fit your version of events. We have officially departed Reasoning and are now ensconced in the smothering walls of I Feel.

[Icy Magebane]

Does anybody have a guess as to how this guy remains visible or how people remember meeting him?  Any hint from the book, maybe?

[Fredward]

Does anybody have a guess as to how this guy remains visible or how people remember meeting him?  Any hint from the book, maybe?

 

I don't think he's actually invisible [but don't quote me on that he might actually be able to go invisible] he's just supremely forgettable. And people generally don't remember him. Though this is/was probably a subconscious thing he was expressing via his hedge magic. He felt like no one could see him/everyone would forget him so they did.

[Fortlowe]

Ah, and there might be where our little disagreement originates. Lying presumes that you are trying to hide a truth, of if you believe lying by omission is a thing, carefully avoiding a truth. If you yourself do not know this truth it cannot be lying. It's like saying a blind person is lying if they can't describe the sky. Cole/demon-fusion-thingy repressed traumatic experiences like his backstory, the fact that he was left to starve to death in a tiny cell and then quite probably his own possession. As a byproduct of this he forgot his true nature. You can't be lying if you yourself can't recall the truth. Delusional? Sure. Dangerously delusional? Mayhaps. Consciously lying for eeeeevvvvviiiiillllll purposes? No.

I can understand disliking something purely because it exists. And by that I mean academically, I understand the mechanics of prejudice. Not something I agree with and it usually goes with reasoning I can never quite wrap my head around but I understand that it exists. What I don't really understand is how people can use it, this internal affective dislike, as if it was a logically sound platform from which to launch judgements. I mean you are actively reinterpreting things in the book to fit your version of events. We have officially departed Reasoning and are now ensconced in the smothering walls of I Feel.

Not so. Cole is not the child Cole. This is in the book. You say I am rationalizing my own prejudice into the explanation of the creaturestrue nature. I'd like you to point out specifically where in my reasoning diverges with the source material. There is nowhere in the book that says or even implies how the creature came to believe it was the boy.

[Icy Magebane]

I don't think he's actually invisible [but don't quote me on that he might actually be able to go invisible] he's just supremely forgettable. And people generally don't remember him. Though this is/was probably a subconscious thing he was expressing via his hedge magic. He felt like no one could see him/everyone would forget him so they did.

Interesting... thanks for the info.  I heard that rogues may not be getting much in the way of Stealth this time, so maybe that will be part of Cole's specialization.  Now that I think about it, Armistice (threat redirection) from DA2 might be perfect for him... probably most of the Shadow tree as well (not Decoy).  Well, I hope they have something unique planned both combat and story-wise.  Sounds like a tricky character to incorporate.

 

If he had the subconscious power to make people forget him, perhaps time has allowed him to control this somewhat... you never know.

[XMissWooX]

*Puts on best Martin Sheen voice*
 
Ahem
 
"It doesn't have feelings. It's a construct of the Fade."

Could've fooled me - I thought he was going to kill me when I agreed to side with Architect!

[Fredward]

Not so. Cole is not the child Cole. This is in the book. You say I am rationalizing my own prejudice into the explanation of the creaturestrue nature. I'd like you to point out specifically where in my reasoning diverges with the source material. There is nowhere in the book that says or even implies how the creature came to believe it was the boy.

 

I was never denying that. I know Cole isn't the boy, or at least not just the boy anymore. So? You can't punish/kill the spirit doing the possession without killing whatever is left of the boy, and what's more THIS version of Cole is not guilty of the crimes its parts committed. We know spirits/demons can fuse with their human host, this seems to be the case here. It's clearly not an outright possession where the demon completely supplants control of the inhabitant since if it was it wouldn't be so confused as to its nature, which we know it was until recently. It's also not a seamless fusion like with Wynne where the spirit takes a back seat and the human more or less stays in complete control. The only parallel that can be drawn is to Justice who started to change when exposed to Anders' hate of templars. We can imagine that a guilt ridden little boy who is now dying alone and forgotten would have a suitably high level of affect to warp the spirit/demon possessing him.

 

You're hung up on the possession angle and so you assume that the current form of Cole must be malevolent as well. I'm saying he's not malevolent exactly because of the possession. Much like Anders/Justice there's no clear line where the boy begins and the demon/spirit starts. It's a new entity and dismissing/hating it simply for what it is not something I can get behind, judging it by its actions up to this point and the motivations behind them [taking Cole's PoV  at face value and assuming he was sincere in his thought processes] I also do not see how this Cole is inherently malignant and deserving of death.

[Fortlowe]

It is not possession. The boy died and the body disposed was of. The child may have been a bridge to crossover then used as a template to mimic, but Cole is a creature largely of its own making. That design being a predator that feeds on the misery and death of the desperate.

[Kisari]

I don't think he's actually invisible [but don't quote me on that he might actually be able to go invisible] he's just supremely forgettable. And people generally don't remember him. Though this is/was probably a subconscious thing he was expressing via his hedge magic. He felt like no one could see him/everyone would forget him so they did.

It's not hedge magic, it's demon magic. It's stated in his interview with PW that it is spirit/demon powers.

From the interview:

Spoiler

[PW]: Indeed. Dave is great at creating sympathetic characters, and I loved Cole's arc in the novel. I was guessing at his true nature until the climax of the book. But I couldn't just tell that story again. The character has to grow, for one thing… and also, that arc was tied to Cole not knowing what he is. Once Seeker Lambert whips out the Litany of Adralla, that pretty much narrows Cole down to blood mage or demon, and since he wasn't using blood magic…

[DA]: So, Cole is definitely a demon?

[PW]: Welllllllll… he's definitely somewhere on the Demon-or-Spirit Spectrum of Fade Creatures (which I really hope exists somewhere). A lot of people will always see him as a demon. He would rather be a spirit. He's trying.

In The Masked Empire Imshael is able to make Michel invisible in the same way as Cole is and claims it's a common fade trick. It's not actual invisibilty, it's some sort of mind manipulation. I think it's best shown how it works when Cole is taking out the 3 templars with Leliana in the Pit. He spreads his powers to them to make them not even realize what's happening as he slits their throats.

The question is why he isn't able to control his powers despite it being something easily done by spirits/demons. I'm hoping since the ending and his realization that he was never the original Cole and is a spirit/demon that he'll have control of it now.

[Fredward]

It is not possession. The boy died and the body disposed was of. The child may have been a bridge to crossover then used as a template to mimic, but Cole is a creature largely of its own making. That design being a predator that feeds on the misery and death of the desperate.

 

Huh. I think I remember reading something about that. Well anyway what makes you human? Your physical body or your emotions/feelings/memories? Whatever its initial relationship with the boy it seems like it was enough to make some fundamental changes, if it was the predatory creature you sketch it as it would not have to make up subconscious justifications for its need to feed. See I would've been more willing to accept your version of Cole if we had never been in his mind, but we were. And it's inconsistent. Now that he knows his true nature he still seems to want to change, if we go by Weekes' quote, and since we know the demon/spirit spectrum isn't fixed he can.

 

The question is why he isn't able to control his powers despite it being something easily done by spirits/demons. I'm hoping since the ending and his realization that he was never the original Cole and is a spirit/demon that he'll have control of it now.

 

I imagine that he will, if not full control all the time at least some. He'll be kinda useless otherwise. Imagine having to reintroduced every other day. Still I think making people forget him will almost be his default way of being. Assuming his brush with boyCole changed him/it enough and he's not just gonna betray everyone and turn out to be the big bad MUAHAHAHAHAHA. ~ahem~ If that initial imprint of humanity still plays a role boyCole's feelings of being forgotten and of wanting to disappear it'll be a significant hurdle to overcome.

[Jigglypuff]

I wonder how we will recruit him, In my head scenario we investigate lamberts murder and meet him there, the inquisitor being the only person to see him and so he follows him/her.

[Thinvesil]

I wonder how we will recruit him, In my head scenario we investigate lamberts murder and meet him there, the inquisitor being the only person to see him and so he follows him/her.

And would he stay waiting until the investigator will come? I doubt. Beside, who'd care about Lambert's death?

[Gervaise]

To be honest I think how you refer to Cole is entirely up to you.   Some of us are more comfortable with what we perceive as the more friendly "he", others prefer the (probably) more honest "it", because spirits do not really have a gender.    There is also the problem with the English language in that many things are generic neutral, whereas in other languages the word for something may be either masculine or feminine.    To give an example, take the word for wisdom in Greek, which is Sophia.   This is feminine and the name for it is actually used as a female name but it is an attribute with no gender whatsoever.     In some languages the word for spirit is masculine, in others feminine and as a consequence people may tend to think of and refer to spirits as either "he" or "she" accordingly.   If they are not aware of the gender of an animal, people tend to refer to them as either "he" (dogs) or "she" (cats).   It is just habit and does not mean they necessarily think of them as furry people but we just have this deep down aversion to referring to a living being that we have personal interaction with as "it".

 

We know at least one companion in game, Sera, refuses to call Cole anything but "it", probably because she is a very matter of fact, down to earth sort of person, he calls things exactly as she sees them.    However, other characters might feel this is too impersonal or even "rude" because Cole has adopted the persona of a human male and is interacting with the group on a personal level.     Presumably we too may be allowed to choose how we refer to him/it.

[hyperionic]

Isn't it because the veil was ripped open? It's implied that once the rifts are close people will go back to forgetting him.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Jigglypuff:  If that scenario happens - I will likely attack and destroy it on the spot. 

 

Not because I support templars... at all, I disagree with Lambert a great deal (far more than I disagree with Gaspard) - but because I will, even if only in headcanon, follow the trail back to the murders of those mages.  If I'm investigating Lambert's death... that's what I'd do in a real RPG, even if DA doesn't let me due to CRPG limitations.

[Gervaise]

Well the entry on the Timeline only says that Lambert is missing (presumed dead), so it might well be that we are asked to investigate.   He was the head of the Templar organisation and had sent the official letter splitting from the Chantry.   If he was not at the peace conference, people would want to know why, if only to rule him out as the cause of the big explosion.   We were left hanging at the end of Asunder; we assumed that "look into my eyes" meant that Cole killed him but without a body, where is the proof?   And since it occurred after dark in Lambert's room, no one except Cole knows the truth.   At the very least, if the Inquisitor is asked to investigate, I would wish to question Cole because I presume that Lambert would have left some record of his dealings with Cole.   Unless, of course, Cole destroyed them.

 

I also think that calling Cole "he" reminds you that he has moral responsibility for his actions, unlike an "it" which suggests more of a creature rather than a person and thus acting out of instinct.

[Master Warder Z_]

Could've fooled me - I thought he was going to kill me when I agreed to side with Architect!

 

You mean Justice?

 

Fade Demons and Spirits have facsimiles of emotion, Imitations, just like everything else.

[MissMagi]

*Puts on best Martin Sheen voice*

 

Ahem

 

"It doesn't have feelings. It's a construct of the Fade."

 

Hey, who knows... he may become a "real boy" by the end.

 

Cole- the Pinocchio of Dragon Age.

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

Wow, this thread scared off Kelgrid o3o

[Master Warder Z_]

Hey, who knows... he may become a "real boy" by the end.

 

Pfft, at best it's an abomination, at worst it's what I've always assumed it to be, a demon.

 

It didn't end well with Anders, i doubt it will end well here.

[Eveangaline]

Hey, who knows... he may become a "real boy" by the end.

 

Cole- the Pinocchio of Dragon Age.

 

.....There's got to be some joke about fenris or anders being the blue fairy because they both have glowing blue problems, but I can't find it.

[Kisari]

Wow, this thread scared off Kelgrid o3o

Did something happen that I missed?

edit: nvm i used google yay me

That's kind of to be expected with a character that is a spirit/demon. I don't expect it to ever get better in the Cole thread.