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[raging_monkey]

My maker thats excatly what i thought

[Master Warder Z_]

The consensus of these forums tend to lean towards a spirit of compassion or a demon of despair. I prefer despair, or at least a demon because... well Paarthurnax says it best: "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" 

 

Good comparison.

 

Dragons need to die for what they are just like spirits need to be banished from the world for what they are!

[Yggdrasil]

I don't really see Justice tarnishing the name of spirits.  He became warped into Vengeance by Anders' rage at the plight of mages.  Most Thedosians would distrust spirits no matter what anyway, I would imagine.  Spirits seem very simplistic in their thinking to me, very black & white, off & on.  They try to understand life outside of the Fade by pouring their entire identity into one aspect of emotion.  Thedosians call some of them demons because something like unmitigated Rage can't help but be destructive.  But then Justice untempered by Mercy can be just as horrible.  Cole is so different because he seems shaded and subtle in his make up.

 

I don't agree that all spirits are "bad" and need to be destroyed simply because they're spirits.

[Dust]

Welcome! And it's happier I suppose, as long as you don't mind the occasional moral and anthropological debate. 

Moral and anthropological debate! That's the reason why I am here. 

[Dust]

There are no certainties?

 

How about this certainty.

 

The things beyond the veil are dangerous and should be trusted, tolerated or allowed to exist in the waking world.

Fade is the “primordial soup” of our world, the source of our anger, fear and desperation, also the source of virtue, conscience and hope. It holds our subconscious, our dreams, the essence of life, a place that you would rather die than losing the connection of it. Our purpose is not about destroying the fade (we can't), is about destroying the "big bad" who intentionally manipulate it, who wants to break the balance and leading the world to chaos. We are the people who aim to restore the order and protect innocent lives, we can be human, elf, qunari, dwarf, templars, seeker, circle mage, gray warden, from Tevinter, Antivan, wild and fade.

 

That is what I meant, and I believe what BioWare meant.

[raging_monkey]

+500. Dust

[Dust]

Gaider once said they are not fundamentally different

 

There are no fundamental differences. They are like quantum reality, observer decide what they are.

[raging_monkey]

Which mean vengence was when he was bound to anders?

[Dust]

Which mean vengence was when he was bound to anders?

They effected each other, all have good intentions, but just like wrong people in wrong time, tragic combination.

[raging_monkey]

They affected each other, all have good intentions, but just like wrong people in wrong time, tragic combination.

oh maker i just assumed anders went batty cause he had axe to grind and justice helped.... this is something to ponder.. so if a rage demon possed me but i had a just cause that was morally good the rage demon would be a spirit of rightiousness?

[Dust]

"We effected each other." is what Anders said, something like my rage against templars become the reason of Justice.

 

From what I've suspected, pure intension can hardly exist, if a demon is possessing you, you might have something consider to be very attempting. But if you fight against it hard enough, whether it can transform that demon is still unknown, but I believe the absent knowledge will soon be added by Solas and Cole and all the things we will meet in DAI.

 

[raging_monkey]

"We affected each other." is what Anders said, something like my rage against templars become the reason of Justice. From what I suspected, pure intension can hardly exist, if a demon possessed you, you might have something consider to be very attempting. But if you fight against it hard enough, whether it can transform that demon is still unknown, but I believe the absent knowledge will soon be added by Solas and Cole and all the things we will meet in DAI.

as a moderate ive been wary of spirits in general(with work and be friendly with) so i never though of it like that perhaps possession wouldnt be so bad

[Lulupab]

Usually when a demon possesses you all you are is gone, replaced by the demon. But Spirits don't do that as its such a "demony" thing to do. So in demonic abominations the host is just flesh so it does not affect the demon. This is also why its speculated spirit abominations are stronger than demonic ones. Because the host and spirit work together and can think, plan like anyone else.

Also Anders is not a good example as he was tainted, its quite possible the taint caused all that. We know that demons REALLY hate the taint and grey warden mages are almost immune to be possessed as demons won't even go after them. Why? We don't know. Avernus also used taint magic on demons and it was very effective.

[Dust]

Kad tumblr

[Natarsi]

T^T *out of likes* AGAIN!

 

 

I like how interesting the discussion has become.

 

Personally, I'm a person of 'Actions speak louder than words'. So what if Cole's a spirit? My character will judge him by his actions and choices. As will I, thought I'm pro-biased thanks to Asunder.

 

If we go by 'they should be destroyed for what they are' then all mages must be killed, because they can become abominations. Human must be killed, because apparently there is always someone who can't get enough and starts another war or just gets rid of any competition standing in his way.

 

To demand someone must be killed for what they are, is to demand someone to be put down by 'what he or she could potentionally end up doing' rather than to judge them for 'what they have done'.

 

 

Would you have killed Loghain in Dragon Age Origins from the start? Nope. Because he hadn't done anything yet. Would you or have you killed him later? Possibly, possibly not. He had 'good intentions' but the way he executed them were perhaps not the right way. If I could have recruited him into the Wardens, without loosing Alastair, I would have done so. I'd have done the same to the guy who betrayed my family in the first walkthrough as a human noble.

Loghain because I can understand his reasoning, even if I do not agree with his ways and because as a Grey Warden he could have actually done what he wished most - protect Ferelden. Thought without the addition 'from the Orleasions'.
The other guy, because I'd have left it up for fate. He had great ambitions and I'd rather see him live and watch them crumble and actually work off his crimes in service to the country. Additionally with the knowledge that he might not survive the joining and even if he did, he'd pay for his crimes one way or another.

 

 

Similar with Cole, thought with some certain circumstances.

Cole might have killed before. Maybe with the right intention (easing suffering), but perhaps not the right way. In his case he didn't knew better. His past experiences had lead him to belive that this way was the best way and he didn't have a sense of some sort of moral code because he never was thought. Or if he was, his memories of that were gone.

With the description given of Cole as of now and what little I've gotten to see of him in gameplay vids and trailers, I totally consider him a reliable ally.

I'll give the chance to prove themselves to all those I encounter.

Sera I'm biased against, because she - like apparently Master Warden Z_ - judges others (in this case Cole) for what they are and doesn't even give them a chance (refusing to even speak with him).

Hence also why I like the Iron Bull better. He is obviously warry of mages and such (this includes spirits) but gives them a chance and see how it goes from there.

[Dust]

@ Natasi, I think Sera doesn't really mean it，she shoots from the hip (and little bit naive indeed XD), but she has a pure intention to help just like Cole. I hope they may end up being BFF

 

I just wandering what if the inquisitor himself is "an abomination"? What if he is or about to be dead in that blast? But after being rescued by a fade existence which "should never exist", he emerges from the fade with the power to save the world?

 

Then he is facing the same situation with Cole, fighting so hard with his inner darkness. (the evil twin in The enemy of Thedas?) Because it is not about be the spirit or the demon, it's only about the constant debate of being a human, with all the brightness and darkness inside, and what will you choose when the world drowned in choas, lead them or fall?

[Lalwen]

hello im monkey and this is only of the happier threads(well all the character threads are happy lol)

 

 

Welcome! Come talk about silly hats with us

 

 

Welcome! And it's happier I suppose, as long as you don't mind the occasional moral and anthropological debate. 

Thanks everyone ! 

I really enjoy reading the debates here and the silly hat ! I wonder if we'll get a chance to know where it comes from .. maybe he made it ?

The little comic strip is perfect

 

I love the idea that he might be a Spirit of empathy, that suits him rather well. I won't participate much, in fear of saying things already told haha .. but I feel like Cole is somewhere between Demons and Spirits, and what Cole is is going to change our perception and our understanding of the Fade and the beings that live there. Like Dust said, the Inquisitor is changed by the Fade, he/she might also be a new being, somewhere between the Fade and the human's world.

 

*happy sigh* can't wait to meet Cole ...

[raging_monkey]

@ Natasi, I think Sera doesn't really mean it，she shoots from the hip (and little bit naive indeed XD), but she has a pure intention to help just like Cole. I hope they may end up being BFF
 
I just wandering what if the inquisitor himself is "an abomination"? What if he is or about to be dead in that blast? But after being rescued by a fade existence which "should never exist", he emerges from the fade with the power to save the world?
 
Then he is facing the same situation with Cole, fighting so hard with his inner darkness. (the evil twin in The enemy of Thedas?) Because it is not about be the spirit or the demon, it's only about the constant debate of being a human, with all the brightness and darkness inside, and what will you choose when the world drowned in choas, lead them or fall?

if so that will change everything

[Master Warder Z_]

Fade is the “primordial soup” of our world, the source of our anger, fear and desperation, also the source of virtue, conscience and hope. It holds our subconscious, our dreams, the essence of live, a place that you would rather die than losing the connection of it. Our purpose is not about destroying the fade (we can't), is about destroying the "big bad" who intentionally manipulate it, who wants to break the balance and leading the world to chaos. We are the people who aim to restore the order and protect innocent lives, we can be human, elf, qunari, dwarf, templars, seeker, circle mage, gray warden, from Tevinter, Antivan, wild and fade.

 

That is what I meant, and I believe what BioWare meant.

 

There is nothing indicating that the Fade is the source of emotion: That's an assumption based on the effects of the rite of tranquility, which results in a side effect that neuters emotion.

 

It holds dreams, but it did not always exist, so am i to assume that i should ascribe importance to the beings there? When in all likelihood all they did was hijack the collective dreams of Mankind.

 

If you buy into the belief of the Maker, He created the Fade, and the spirits that dwelt within, but nowhere within that mythos was the task he gave them to create the dreams for his favored creations, so where did such a appointment come from?

 

We have no answers.

 

But we do know however is that the Fade is a dangerous realm, filled with dangerous creatures that are alien to anything living.

 

Beyond that, assuming the allegiance of any construct of the fade is a fools errand as has been demonstrated repeatedly.

 

 

like apparently Master Warden Z_ - judges others (in this case Cole) for what they are and doesn't even give them a chance 

 

Spirits aren't people and therefore shouldn't be treated like them.

 

Treating that which is not your own kind, the same as your own kind is benign anthropomorphism: A concept i don't buy into in reality, so i wouldn't apply to fiction.

 

Beyond that, this is a serial killer demon that kills to "exist" its a classical narcissistic delusion, or it would be if the spirit in question was a person, it isn't.

 

As Lambert so eloquently put.

 

"Stupid spirit didn't you really think you were alive?"

 

So its a dangerous little spirit, that i acknowledge as such.

 

Beyond that, its actions will determine our relationship, though i do acknowledge that i will likely disagree with the pathetic wisp just because it's ideals, notions and thoughts are alien, they will likely be presented in such a way. Abomination or no, The desires and beliefs of such a thing are unknowable.

[Exaltation]

[Eveangaline]

Kad tumblr

 

 Is this based on the dev comment that was like "now to try for a run where I'm so bloodthirsty both Cole and Solas walk out on me"?

[Dust]

Spirits aren't people and therefore shouldn't be treated like them.

 

Treating that which is not your own kind, the same as your own kind is benign anthropomorphism: A concept i don't buy into in reality, so i wouldn't apply to fiction.

 

Beyond that, this is a serial killer demon that kills to "exist" its a classical narcissistic delusion, or it would be if the spirit in question was a person, it isn't.

 

As Lambert so eloquently put.

 

"Stupid spirit didn't you really think you were alive?"

 

So its a dangerous little spirit, that i acknowledge as such.

 

Lambert is awesome, the way he manipulate the mind, if it wasn't the fact that we can read from Cole's perspective throughout the book and know it wasn't true, I would buy it.

 

You may certain that spirit won't change, they won't learn, they won't grow, but why Cole is still changed? He stopped after Rhys told him the consequence of his actions. He changed from a selfish killer to a selfless protector. In fact, he doesn't need to kill to exist, the killing started after he met Rhys, before that, he was just a harmless ghost wandering in the Spire, but always exist.

 

So why? 8 years of peace was broken by a kind visit? Now let me remind you about Fenris (a character you might actually like), what did he say when you romance him? He pushed you away because the happiness you gave him is killing him... But this is exactly the kind of complicated character that David always so good at.

 

This lonely soul, never prayed never hoped, never tasted the sweet of companionship so he won't have to bear the ache of losing it. As to Cole, it is not only the pain of memories, but also the pain of his fate. The friendship is like a poppy flower to Cole, no matter how wonderful the taste is, you still can't ignore the fact that death is waiting in the end.

 

He once prayed to the Maker for deliverance, for the ruthless world to forget he even existed, now he finally start wanting, wanting to be remembered, to be seen, only when he finds out he was no longer be able to. So when Rhys's visit become infrequent, he started to be afraid, he started to make mistakes. For the death seems to be a comforting choice now, and walking in a lonely hell is far worse than that.

 

That is the reason Rhys think that his visit were making Cole feel worse rather than better. That is why the words "Leave me alone." sound so unconvincing.

 

I don't need people swinging their boards of demon or spirit in front of him to make a judgment. I only make judgments from his actions, and his actions are full of human touch.

[Dust]

 

But we do know however is that the Fade is a dangerous realm, filled with dangerous creatures that are alien to anything living.

 

Beyond that, assuming the allegiance of any construct of the fade is a fools errand as has been demonstrated repeatedly.

 

 

I've read the description about fade in The World of Thedas (The fade is an otherworldly realm of great power and mystery, a wellspring of magic, and, to some, the source of creation), I also know it's clearly not sufficient, and we are going to need a Volume 2 after we know about what happened in DAI (April 21, 2015). However, dreams are more than just dreams, I don't need to quote from Bergson or Freud, it's just... a common sense.

 

It's a fiction story after all, and a game always needs some pure evil enemies to stab to, but good games are constantly trying to blur the boundaries, force you make choices between complicated contexts, because this is what reality is.

 

It's like we fight against those synthetic machines throughout the ME1&2, then finally, there is a Legion in your group, talking about these Cyber Space Statements that can turn your world upside-down, and in the end, if you choose to destroy, you may destroy them now, but the cycle never ends.

 

I'm not really into these Buddhist philosophies, but I do believe it's a good thing for developers to encourage game players to think deeper, think wider, think on both side without pre-judgments. Beyond that, I hope IF, IF the inquisitor is jumping into the same sort of debate again, you wouldn't just quit the game and come back to this forum whining about how BioWare r*ped your brain.

[Dust]

 Is this based on the dev comment that was like "now to try for a run where I'm so bloodthirsty both Cole and Solas walk out on me"?

I don't think so, but hey, Team Awesome Cheekbones, totally my taste 

[Fortlowe]

I'm one to grant more weight to actions than words as well. I still don't see how the creatures actions can be sympathetic. It killed trapped innocents to feel good. Just because it's also a bit of a sad sac doesn't change that it is a serial murderer.