The more I learn about Cole the more I want the option to hug him...in a platonic way. (a hug option for others would be great too, I only got to hug Varric so far)
(it is quiet in this topic, isn't it?)
I guess we missed the fun 235 pages in haha. I would romance him in a next game or something if his mind were more stable whilst keeping the compassionate side. Hugs are always good too.
I guess we missed the fun 235 pages in haha. I would romance him in a next game or something if his mind were more stable whilst keeping the compassionate side. Hugs are always good too.
I read all pages before, even wrote and drew some stuff. 
Maybe, I would only romance him if the writers, David Gaider and Patrick Weekes (and the others on the team) would think it where a good idea. And even then I would feel uncomfortable (as with all romances actually, I play as myself mostly, which means I avoid romances, lol)
But yes, hugs and cuddles are great. (and Cole deserves a lot of hugs)
I read all pages before, even wrote and drew some stuff.
Maybe, I would only romance him if the writers, David Gaider and Patrick Weekes would think it where a good idea. And even then I would feel uncomfortable (as with all romances actually, I play as myself mostly, which means I avoid romances, lol)
But yes, hugs and cuddles are great.
I am pretty sure Gaider is opposed to it entirely, although I cannot speak for him. I just get that vibe based off of the things he has said. Still a great character.
Ha! So Cole does appear in the background in Therinfal before Envy grabs you? When he first talked to me in my mind, there was an option to ask if I've seen him before, which made me wonder if I overlooked him in the "real world". Gotta keep an eye out the next time I play that mission.
I'm pretty sure someone's already mentioned and/or posted screenshots, but I just felt like sharing Cole's bad hair day (and bonus glowing crow buddy) with everyone:
Wow. That's unfortunate.
Question for more knowledgeable Cole fans. During his personal quest, my IQ encouraged Cole to be more spirit-like. And I was quite satisfied with that choice, right up to the point where...
Did I do something wrong in a past conversation, or is this just the inevitable result of taking the spirit option?
Thinking about it now, it does seem like a logical next step, and not necessarily as terrible I had originally thought. At the time, though, I was so bothered by the thought of losing one of my favorite characters that I had to take a break.
It's painful to watch, yes, and I too was afraid to lose him -- but what bothered me much more than him doing this is that the Inquisitor just walks away. WTF? Even, no especially if they're a bit freaked out they should talk to him and not just leave him with it. More spirit or more mortal, he's a very dear friend damnit. The scene also clashes with earlier dialog. After his quest, he says he let go of what happened then and doesn't remember it anymore, so why is he agonizing over it again? Asking that should be part of talking to him, if nothing else.
I prefer the spirit path, anyway, so eh. Making himself forget is an act of self-care in a moment of deep grief, and if anyone has the right to look after his own well-being for a change, it's Cole.
Hah, yes, my other thought was, "That's it?! Don't I have anything to say?" I guess the IQ was just at a loss for words. I ran straight to the inn afterwards in hope of a follow-up, only to be disappointed. Oh well. I hope he'll continue to be the Cole I know and love, as that's why I went with the spirit choice in the first place. (That, and my canon IQ's a mage who considers Solas her advisor in all spirit-related matters. She was not going to act against his advice.)
I agree entirely about his actions being an act of self-care, and as I said, I was content with the spirit choice. And yet I found the idea of him just hand-waving away discomfort and sorrow unsettling. What he did to himself was so much more invasive than what I'd seen him do before -- not that he's not got every right to do so, as he was doing it to himself, but still... unsettling. Which is probably why I love his character so much. He can be so lovely, and also make me so uneasy.
Someday I'll see where the human path takes him, but as I'm still working slowly through my first playthrough, that won't happen for quite some time.
Unsettling is a good word. It was a bit like watching someone dear to my character mutilate himself. I suppose those of us who choose and prefer the more-a-spirit path need to accept that there will always be a part that is unsettling because he is so clearly not human. While the purity of his kindness and selflessness is awe-inspiring, the same otherworldliness that gives him that also makes him hard to understand at times. That's the price to pay for encouraging him down that path -- just as the loss some of that stark otherwordliness is the price for the more-human path. You gain some and lose some either way, even if the core of the character remains the same. Like two sides of a coin. And more whole either way than he was before.
Varric and Solas are both undeniably biased and want Cole to be more like what they prefer to see in him while downplaying the other part. In the end, though, I feel that pushing him towards becoming more human is the bigger, more "selfish" demand on him because it feels like saying "you should be more like us" instead of "you are fine as you are even if few will truly understand".
As often as Cole speaks so highly of nugs, why haven't any of you drawn him playing with Shmooples?
Someone did draw Cole with nugs! Link
I won't post it here since I haven't asked the artist. But it's cute! It's too bad we can't give him one in the game. I kind of want him to look after Schmooples II. He could carry it around in his hat. If Anders could keep a cat in his robes, I'm sure Cole can manage a nug in a hat.
"You’ve done odd things." didn’t trigger at right time right place might due to the discontinuous loading glitch of skyhold, just stand there, save and load. You need to went to the kitchen three times to complete this invisible quest btw. Then you will get an additional dialogue and a greatly approve after that, very touching.
@JessicaRangel: Always happy to hear from another fan of the character, regardless of which aspect of him they're the fondest of! I certainly wouldn't call making him more human "wrong". Both choices are very well written and poignant, just in different ways. What I meant was simply that to me, it potentially has a element of "we're human, you're not, you're weird and should change to make us more comfortable". Most people prefer what they know, and we have a tendency to think that "more like me" equals "better". It seems to me that the spirit path can -- again, potentially -- be more respectful of the fact that "different" does not mean "inferior" or "wrong". Cole already gives so much and asks for so little that to me, it simply feels better to attempt to to my best to understand and acknowledge that otherworldly part of him and give it room to breathe and be and flourish.
In particular, I don't want to push a painful change on him in what already is a deeply traumatic situation. Pain can be a very effective teacher, but in the end it's not a kind one even if the lesson is important.
I think it's a little simplistic when people say that spirits don't remember, don't learn, don't grow. In their basic state of "peaceful semi-existence" as Solas put it if memory serves, that is correct -- but when they gain a sense of self, that changes, and likewise the more they interact with reality. One couldn't befriend spirits if they were incapable of interest, affection or memory. It wouldn't be like with a person, but again ... it shouldn't have to be, because exploring differences can be just as big a part of what makes interaction fascinating as discovering similarities is.
At any rate, regardless of what we choose, we deny Cole what he wants in that moment: revenge. Varric tricks him, Solas talks him out of it. And that is good, because I think that killing that man might make Cole's own worst fear come true and twist him into a demon. Hate and vengeance just go so utterly against the core of what he is. And even if it wouldn't have made him a demon, even if he was a spirit of something other than compassion, it would've been a horribly inauspicious beginning to becoming more human.
I definitely understand and respect your opinion, because you eloquently express a concern for the character and his nature that doesn't show any of the potential issues mentioned above. We're just looking at the opposite sides of this very loveable coin. Both sides have utterly touching moments and lines (my favourite from the more-human path is his little laugh at himself during the Val Royeaux scene), and others that are painful to watch. Either way, he finally learns that he has true friends who will stand by him, protect him and value him without flinching away.
I think it's a little simplistic when people say that spirits don't remember, don't learn, don't grow. In their basic state of "peaceful semi-existence" as Solas put it if memory serves, that is correct -- but when they gain a sense of self, that changes, and likewise the more they interact with reality. One couldn't befriend spirits if they were incapable of interest, affection or memory. It wouldn't be like with a person, but again ... it shouldn't have to be, because exploring differences can be just as big a part of what makes interaction fascinating as discovering similarities is.
It's not what people said, it's what human Cole said. Solas also said: "A spirit dose not work through emotions, they embodies them." Which was proven wrong by human Cole. Even Solas himself admitted that he did not see this coming.
Besides, what the templar did to the real Cole in Asunder was a horrible horrible crime, if wasn't for Cole's sake and his sincere regrets, I will definitely chop that man. Regardless, human Cole will forgive this huge pain, by taking time and thoughts to truly understand. Yet spirit Cole didn't forgive, he just forgot it by simple magic.
In addition to this, here is a banter between Solas & Cole.
Cole: If it helps enough people, it becomes more... wandering, wishing, touched by them, Maker loves you, and it grows.
Cole: But I am me. Will I be more one day, if I help enough? Is this a task, timed, temporary?
Solas: No. It is a mistake to ascribe human motivations to them.
Cole: So I am always this?
Solas: You are always you.
I agree with Solas' last answer but not the first, Cole should always be himself. However, spirit Cole is who he was, not who he is. He changed and grows, he made himself unique and different than other spirits, he achieved the things that normal spirits can't even imagine. Which force me to think on the subject other than labels that Solas has put on him, and open my mind for more potentials. I never meant to make him fit us, and I miss that "How do you know?" greatly. But I know he has to hold on his original purpose, to be more brave, cz that's what made him.
Modifié par Dust, 30 décembre 2014 - 10:10 .
It's not what people said, it's what human Cole said. Solas also said: "A spirit dose not work through emotions, they embodies them." Which was proven wrong by human Cole. Even Solas himself admitted that he did not see this coming.
Yep, Solas isn't always right. Much as he'd hate to admit it. 
But, again: it wouldn't be possible to interact with spirits and befriend them if they were only static and impersonal. They are, in their original state, but they can gain a sense of self and personality, like that poor spirit of wisdom we meet in Solas' quest. Crossing into the real world of their own will as the spirit that became Cole did requires a sense of self and thus growth, change. Not in a way that's like us ... but they shouldn't have to be to be respected for what they are.
Besides, what the templar did to the real Cole in Asunder was a horrible horrible crime, if wasn't for Cole's sake and his sincere regrets, I will definitely chop that man. Regardless, human Cole will forgive this huge pain, by taking time and thoughts to truly understand. Yet spirit Cole never forgave, he just forgot it by simple magic.
The templar is undeniably guilty, yes. He knows it, too. Whether his own regret is reason enough to spare him is up to personal opinion -- preventing Cole from following his vengeful impulses isn't really about the templar, it's about not letting a friend make a huge mistake.
Regardless, human Cole will forgive this huge pain, by taking time and thoughts to truly understand. Yet spirit Cole never forgave, he just forgot it by simple magic.
See, this has a bit of that "human = superior" feel that I mentioned before, and I disagree. On the spirit path, Cole empathizes with his "killer", realizes that theirs is a shared anguish that shackles them both, and lets it go, freeing himself as well as the templar. To me, there's nothing "simple" in that, it's awe-inspiring. He is compassion, and that forgiveness is real. (Blackwall has problems wrapping his head around it, for obvious reasons.)
Both paths are valid and touching.
The templar is undeniably guilty, yes. He knows it, too. Whether his own regret is reason enough to spare him is up to personal opinion -- preventing Cole from following his vengeful impulses isn't really about the templar, it's about not letting a friend make a huge mistake.
Yes, fully agree, like why I didn't allow Solas kill those mages even I was pretty angry about their foolishness.
See, this has a bit of that "human = superior" feel that I mentioned before, and I disagree. On the spirit path, Cole empathizes with his "killer", realizes that theirs is a shared anguish that shackles them both, and lets it go, freeing himself as well as the templar. To me, there's nothing "simple" in that, it's awe-inspiring. He is compassion, and that forgiveness is real. (Blackwall has problems wrapping his head around it, for obvious reasons.)
Perhaps I didn't explain it well, I love spirits in a different way, even more than humans somehow. But this is not about classification, it's more like a decision based on individual cases and respect their true wishes even they do not know how to properly express it. I won't say human Cole will better fitting his job than spirit Cole dose, they heal in different ways (as you know the blackwall case). But what about Cole himself? Is this truly what you want? Are you truly happier now? After all this fight, all you've become, you just gave up and changed back? "If I see a way to protect Cole without taking away... what ever he is, I'll use it." is the right reason why my inquisitors make this choice every time. Even Solas admit (againXD) that "it is good that he is not entirely changed."
Yes, fully agree, like why I didn't allow Solas kill those mages even I was pretty angry about their foolishness.
Same, though I was surprised that a quiet "Solas ..." is enough to stop him despite how utterly livid he is. I'm chalking it up to the respect and friendship that has developed between him and the Inquisitor -- a good way to demonstrate that in a "show don't tell" manner.
Perhaps I didn't explain it well,
I know the feeling. Not always easy to find proper words for deep issues.
But this is not about classification, it's more like a decision based on individual cases and respect their true wishes even they do not know how to properly express it. I won't say human Cole will better fitting his job than spirit Cole dose, they heal in different ways (as you know the blackwall case). But what about Cole himself? Is this truly what you want? Are you truly happier now? After all this fight, all you've become, you just gave up and changed back?
Ahh, I see. That does explain your perspective, yes. Where we disagree is that I do not see it as "giving up" at all, I see it as a reclamation of his deepest self. He is more than your average spirit, or even any other spirit with a full sense of self. He's also more than human. Regardless of which way he goes, I think that will always be true. But at the heart of it all, to me, is that pure, unfettered compassion. Reaffirming that strikes me as a triumph over what hurt and shackled him -- the shock and grief over the real Cole's death that broke the spirit and alienated it from its nature, the confusion of not knowing what he was after he made himself real, the loss of Rhys and Evangeline, the further confusion of existing in a world that is so different from his "home", a world where most people fear him because they only know of demons. Even making himself forget the real Cole, as sad as it is (and I'd never claim that scene is anything but heartbreaking, even if the Inquisitor didn't run off like an idiot, which is utterly character-breaking and wrong for mine), is an expression of compassion -- touching because it's directed at himself for once.
Cole is happier afterwards, no matter what. Both paths suit him, and I think that's a testament to the quality of the writing and voice acting.
Cole is happier afterwards, no matter what. Both paths suit him, and I think that's a testament to the quality of the writing and voice acting.
Well, I understand your point, I’ve carefully read enough points on this matter to know how clever plot they've designed for him. But personally, my decision is actually not about the differences between Spirit and Human. As to their essence, I believe they are the same to the level that even Solas won’t agree. And whether he is a spirit or human, he is aways so pure, always knows how to heal the others and what is right to believe: "Believe it to become it." "We can change, if we want it enough."...
Blackwall: Cole, if you knew what I am, what I'd done, why didn't you tell the others?
Cole: Everyone hides dead things. Everyone pretends. You wanted to fix it.
Blackwall: I'm a murderer.
Cole: You don't want to be. You made a new you. You are Blackwall. You killed Rainier.
Blackwall: If only that were possible.
Cole: You would stand between Rainier and the carriage. But you can't. It doesn't work like that.
Cole: So you carry the bodies to remember.
Blackwall: I suppose I do.
So my point is actually about the way he was dealing with his own pain. He heal the pain of others gently, thoughtfully, but when he was facing his own pain, he flinched, he avoided, he denied, he made the killer to forget even made himself to forget. It’s not a long term solution for him, it never was.
Blackwall: Taking away a bad memory is one thing. Taking away guilt is another. Without that guilt, it's as though he never killed you.
Cole: Isn't the world better that way?
No, it isn’t. It’s a lie, it’s self-deny. We remembered, all the pain and darkness from before, so we can be stronger and determent to do the right thing and never fall to what we were. Cole died, so you carried his wishes to exist. I thought you knew it all along and actually you are the person who told me this, by your very actions. And now you are saying this? No, It’s not you, who are you?
What human Cole talks about Cole (calm and peaceful):
Inquisitor: Why can’t you make people forget you anymore?
Cole: Because I’m real. The forgetting was for both sides. They weren’t frightened by me, and I wasn’t hurt by them.
Cole’s pray before he died in Asunder:
Now it's all clear, where his ability to make people forget and made himself unseen came from. He isolate himself and pushed every people away is not because he is a spirit purer than humans, on the contrary, it’s because he is a person who has emotional weakness. It’s a defence mechanism and to keep it is like armed yourself with your pain so it won’t hanging in front of your eyes. He didn't solve it, he kept it, and his denying can only make it worse.
Also, what spirit Cole talks about Cole (amazingly short):
"What happened in the spire?"
“I don’t remember. I let that go. It isn’t part of me anymore."
What? Then why are you still using these power that channels to him? Why are you still here and look like this? Are you truly like what you've said that you are free with no regrets? No pain, no wanders anymore? Then why you cared about whether Crazyfish is dead or not?
Sorry, that Cole in the final cut, just made me want to punch his face to wake him up.
On the spirit path, Cole empathizes with his "killer", realizes that theirs is a shared anguish that shackles them both, and lets it go, freeing himself as well as the templar. To me, there's nothing "simple" in that, it's awe-inspiring. He is compassion, and that forgiveness is real.
Tbh, I was very very pleased until he raised his hand, and then...
"Forget."
Wha...What?
Edit: Just to clear a thing.
He was twisted into a demon not by the pain of Cole’s death, it's about an unfulfilled wish of be alive and be real. He didn’t even know he died and he was actually, not Cole until the end of the book. He was quite, shy, and sensitive. His eager to make friends among livings, to be loved and be remembered was shattered by his lonely fate, this “curse” caged him from what he wants. Maybe that's the reason he turned into a despair so those desperate mages could see him, and their death marked him in his eyes, at that moment, he felt so connected, so real, so he killed them to feel more.
Well, my poor English always tricks me when I want to recommend something, I hope this poor introduction won’t make you have some bad feelings about Cole. Just remember, he was never evil, he was always the kind young man we loved. It was a sadly mistake though, a mistake that he should remember. Besides, his friendship with Rhys and Evangeline are both sweet and heartbreaking and that part should be remembered as well.
It seems you truly cared about our adorable spirit friend, thus I highly recommend you to read this amazing art-piece, it’s so worthwhile;D
@Dust: I can see why you feel that way, yes. And I fully agree that it is sad to see the one who deals so carefully with the pain of others to essentially mutilate himself, even if it is done as self-care. (Though as I said, my only real -- but huge! -- huge gripe with that scene is the totally out-of-character way the Inquisitor just leaves instead of talking to him.) But maybe that is a too-human perspective, and even then there are people who would choose to forget traumatic experiences. I wouldn't deny them, or him, that choice because it's not mine to make.
What I can't agree with is that letting go of his identification with the real Cole makes "our" Cole stop being himself. He isn't that poor kid who starved to death, and he never was. More-human or more-spirit, he is entirely his own unique being. Again, it is his choice and his alone to either hold on to the real Cole's memory or move beyond it. Either way, he stays himself -- a changed self, but the same at the core. He does not give up his sense of self, his personality, his motivations or his other memories. That is why he remains and cares and wants to stop Corypheus (and other evils).
Strictly speaking for myself, choosing the more-spirit path means affirming that "human" does not automatically equal "better", that "what I would do" does not even apply to all humans, nevermind a spirit embodied in human form. It means trying to understand and respect the differences, even if they feel sad and confusing at times. Also, becoming more human is a pretty big deal and if he decides to take that step, I'd rather see it happen in circumstances that are not all about deep personal trauma.
One small observation, even when Cole makes someone forget, he says he never takes all of the pain away- only just enough so that it loses some of its destructiveness over a person.
Yes, that is definitely what he does for the templar. For himself, it's rather more unclear -- as I said, it's strange that he says "I don't remember" after his quest, but later agonizes over it again. An oversight? Seems to me that the "I don't remember" should come only after that scene on the battlements. I think he does truly make himself forget the situation with the real Cole there, and acknowledges the name either because that's what the worried Inquisitor calls him, or because he remembers that's what he used to go by even if he no longer knows the reason. Or both.
One small observation, even when Cole makes someone forget, he says he never takes all of the pain away- only just enough so that it loses some of its destructiveness over a person. He can only make people entirely forget his presence. So that's how I interpret his "forget" both for himself and for the templar. He hasn't really forgotten. He knows who Cole is, because he tells you that you can still use that name. What's gone is the power it had over him.
Ture, when it’s not about himself, he can always see things clear, spirit or human. But that’s not how I interpret from his almost non explanation about his own past. He should remember. He shouldn’t just let that go. It is a part of him, and to be specific, what made him. Cole might be poor and tragic, but he is the boy who touched him to achieve this unbelievable miracle, to prove that we can chose to be who we are, to change even our nature if we want it enough. Rhys might be wrong about Cole, hurt him deeply at the end, but he was also the person who saved him from the life of loneliness and helped him rectified his mistakes.
@Korva: The pain and sweetness are tight together, defined each other and made everything so memorable, when he chose to become, so he can learn and grow, so he can finally bound with livings is nothing about the dead Cole's trauma, it’s all on his own. His calm and sense when he deciphered the real Cole’s problem was truly sincere, he knows he was not that boy, and he truly let that go by stop these traumatised self-defence abilities.
"Cole?"
“You may still use that name.”
If you feel convenient to. But that guy was long dead, and I don’t even remember that anymore.
Who doesn't want a powerful Spirit friend, like a guardian angle, who can only be seen by you and be understand by you? Only when it wasn’t true. It’s not what he wanted, it's just a self lying substitute, and kinda curl. He is pure, but holds the most complicated existence that no one can say for sure. Simplify that may sounds so dreaming at the beginning, so swift so clean. But when time goes by, when the latent issues were no longer be suppressed, you will feel something was not right, and when he doesn't know how to express his trouble, maybe it’s time for me to step away, map it out and figure out why.
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