6175 réponses à ce sujet

[MWImexico]

...

Fair enough, sorry if I misconstrued what you were saying. I imagine it's been part of Cole's learning process that he's figured out when he can help and when his intervention does more harm than good.

 

Actually I should thank you for answering my question, I think you are right, if Cole doesn't remove people's memories (except of himself), what he does is different than what Justinia is talking about. I had a problem with the analogy of the body healing itself though, because we are talking about minds and they are not supposed to work the same way, but perhaps if we think that what Cole does is some sort of accelerated therapy and that he heal the minds by helping the people to understand the reasons of their suffering, the process seems more constructive in my opinion since he doesn't deprive the person he wishes to help from the key of his/her healing, this person still remember that (s)he suffered but also remember why (s)he feels better now.

[DanteYoda]

Of all the Characters Cole is the most ... wrong in my opinion. He just feels tacked on at the end of Haven and is very dis-likable, i've not once added him to my party and feel if he disappeared (pun intended) it would make zero difference..

 

Hes (to me) incredibly ugly, for me his face bugs out in my game (goes all pointed and freaky) I don't get how anyone can like this guy/thing all he ever likes is murder and tries to pass it off as hes helping people...

 

Here is my bugged Cole (which sums up my opinion on this terrible Character)

 

[Addai]

Actually I should thank you for answering my question, I think you are right, if Cole doesn't remove people's memories (except of himself), what he does is different than what Justinia is talking about. I had a problem with the analogy of the body healing itself though, because we are talking about minds and they are not supposed to work the same way, but perhaps if we think that what Cole does is some sort of accelerated therapy and that he heal the minds by helping the people to understand the reasons of their suffering, the process seems more constructive in my opinion since he doesn't deprive the person he wishes to help from the key of his/her healing, this person still remember that (s)he suffered but also remember why (s)he feels better now.

Minds don't heal themselves? I wouldn't agree with that. Most people don't need therapy to work through their problems, they learn coping strategies on their own or from parents and role models.

I do think a lot of people mis-hear/ misunderstand what Cole says about "forgetting." The writer even clarified that when he says he's forgotten the real Cole (on the spirit path), what he really means is that he's let it go. He doesn't fixate on it. Not that he actually can't remember the person and events.

Example- my grandma has dementia, and sadly she will seize on certain events or impressions she gets and fixates on them, turning them over and over in her head. It makes her terribly fearful, and resentful because she'll take an imagined slight and chew on it over and over and over again. I really wish she had a Cole who could loosen her hold on some of those painful, destructive things so that they aren't as huge in her mind and other things can occupy her.
 

Of all the Characters Cole is the most ... wrong in my opinion. He just feels tacked on at the end of Haven and is very dis-likable, i've not once added him to my party and feel if he disappeared (pun intended) it would make zero difference..
 
Hes (to me) incredibly ugly, for me his face bugs out in my game (goes all pointed and freaky) I don't get how anyone can like this guy/thing all he ever likes is murder and tries to pass it off as hes helping people...
 
Here is my bugged Cole (which sums up my opinion on this terrible Character)

Well, thanks for sharing, but since Cole was a character in the novel Asunder he's not only not "tacked on," he's been in works probably longer than other companions. He's also vying with Flemeth, Loghain and Solas for my spot as most interesting character in Dragon Age.

You don't get how we could like a character that gives us insight into the motivations and hidden inner lives of companions and quest NPCs, and who up-ends the conventional understanding of spirits and the Fade? I guess you play the game for much different reasons than I do, then.

[DanteYoda]

Well, thanks for sharing, but since Cole was a character in the novel Asunder he's not only not "tacked on," he's been in works probably longer than other companions. He's also vying with Flemeth, Loghain and Solas for my spot as most interesting character in Dragon Age.

You don't get how we could like a character that gives us insight into the motivations and hidden inner lives of companions and quest NPCs, and who up-ends the conventional understanding of spirits and the Fade? I guess you play the game for much different reasons than I do, then.

It would very much seem so, i have not read any canon so i did not know he is in books, honestly i did not even know there were books on DA.

 

I've only played the three games. I very much like Blackwall and Sera as characters.

[Addai]

It would very much seem so, i have not read any canon so i did not know he is in books, honestly i did not even know there were books on DA.

 

I've only played the three games. I very much like Blackwall and Sera as characters.

Okay, well the events Cole describes in his back story are events from the novel Asunder which sets up the mage-templar war. The characters he mentions like Rhys and Evangeline and Seeker Lambert are characters in Asunder. In the novel, you don't really know what Cole is. He seems to be a ghost of some sort. Seeker Lambert uses the Litany of Adralla to expose him as a spirit/ demon. Rhys is horrified, so Cole runs away and as he tells you in DAI, he went to the templars so that if he ever started hurting people they would kill him.

 

So, he's got a longer development arc than most of the companions. But even if you didn't know that, you must not have had him in the party much if you don't think he adds anything. His dialogue is often cryptic but he does give insight into NPCs that you otherwise would only be able to get from diaries and the like. Plus he's funny. He's not a dashing pinup, but that's because he's a spirit emulating the body of a pimply, abused, starving teenager.

 

Do you have any reasons for disliking the character beyond the perception that he's "tacked on" or because of how he looks?

[Antergaton]

I'm not a fan of Cole, he just randomly popped in my first game, no explanation to who he was and was the same powerset as my character so didn't use him much but on the second playthrough I went down the Templar path and I chose the Solas side of Cole's personal quest. The final scene after The Temple with him

Spoiler

forgetting what made him... well him. It was heart breaking. One word 'Forget' then stood there silently, no personality, no mind of his own.

 

More proof that Solas really doesn't care.

[BraveVesperia]

I'm not a fan of Cole, he just randomly popped in my first game, no explanation to who he was and was the same powerset as my character so didn't use him much but on the second playthrough I went down the Templar path and I chose the Solas side of Cole's personal quest. The final scene after The Temple with him

Spoiler

forgetting what made him... well him. It was heart breaking. One word 'Forget' then stood there silently, no personality, no mind of his own.

 

More proof that Solas really doesn't care.

If you speak to him during the celebration after the final battle, it becomes quite clear that he hasn't forgotten who he is or lost all his personality. He even makes a joke about it all.

 

I don't think that scene plays out as well as it does on the human path (partly because the Inquisitor seems so distant), but it's definitely still Cole afterwards. Just with his spirit side more emphasised.

[Addai]

I'm not a fan of Cole, he just randomly popped in my first game, no explanation to who he was and was the same powerset as my character so didn't use him much but on the second playthrough I went down the Templar path and I chose the Solas side of Cole's personal quest. The final scene after The Temple with him [spoil]forgetting what made him... well him. It was heart breaking. One word 'Forget' then stood there silently, no personality, no mind of his own.[/spoil]

 

More proof that Solas really doesn't care.

Well, people are being very wrong on the internet today. lol

 

Solas does care very much about Cole, but doesn't care about (as he sees it) making him something he's not. The last thing Solas does before departing is wipe Cole's mind of his purpose so that Cole won't follow him to what he sees as a fate he wouldn't wish on an enemy. They're probably the closest of any two companions except Dorian and IB if they hook up.

 

I very much disagree with your perception of Cole on the spirit path, as well. He still has personality and a mind of his own. Cole has more sheer willpower than most mortals do, because he willed himself into the form he is now, he wasn't just born into it. He doesn't forget the events of the Spire, he just lets them go so that he can stay truer to the spirit side of him. As Solas says, there are very few spirits of compassion in the world. Letting him remain close to that identity, with his unique abilities to help the most vulnerable and hurting of society, is hardly a negative thing to do. He's also happy no matter which way you choose in his personal quest.

[Antergaton]

If you speak to him during the celebration after the final battle, it becomes quite clear that he hasn't forgotten who he is or lost all his personality. He even makes a joke about it all.

 

I don't think that scene plays out as well as it does on the human path (partly because the Inquisitor seems so distant), but it's definitely still Cole afterwards. Just with his spirit side more emphasised.

 

That scene seemed odd to me, specially as Cole wouldn't be like that. It felt out of place. Especially after that in end-game. I went round and spoke to everyone to see what they'd say to me one last time. Everyone said something. Cole didn't even have the 'X' prompt.

 

Well, people are being very wrong on the internet today. lol

 

Solas does care very much about Cole, but doesn't care about (as he sees it) making him something he's not. The last thing Solas does before departing is wipe Cole's mind of his purpose so that Cole won't follow him to what he sees as a fate he wouldn't wish on an enemy. They're probably the closest of any two companions except Dorian and IB if they hook up.

 

I very much disagree with your perception of Cole on the spirit path, as well. He still has personality and a mind of his own. Cole has more sheer willpower than most mortals do, because he willed himself into the form he is now, he wasn't just born into it. He doesn't forget the events of the Spire, he just lets them go so that he can stay truer to the spirit side of him. As Solas says, there are very few spirits of compassion in the world. Letting him remain close to that identity, with his unique abilities to help the most vulnerable and hurting of society, is hardly a negative thing to do. He's also happy no matter which way you choose in his personal quest.

 

My view is my view, not wrong. Spirit Cole is not his path, how anyone can choose that and think it's okay is beyond me, this isn't from a narrative point but from human nature point. The spirit of compassion that becomes Cole is no longer that spirit, they are Cole. The Spirit path removes that which made this character, while the human path embraces it. He is happy because he 'forgets' the other version, how can the spirit know happiness if he is just a spirit of compassion now? That's not progression or growth. Cole the person is lost, I'd say because of Solas.

[Addai]

That scene seemed odd to me, specially as Cole wouldn't be like that. It felt out of place. Especially after that in end-game. I went round and spoke to everyone to see what they'd say to me one last time. Everyone said something. Cole didn't even have the 'X' prompt.

Wouldn't be like what?
 

My view is my view, not wrong. Spirit Cole is not his path, how anyone can choose that and think it's okay is beyond me, this isn't from a narrative point but from human nature point. The spirit of compassion that becomes Cole is no longer that spirit, they are Cole. The Spirit path removes that which made this character, while the human path embraces it. He is happy because he 'forgets' the other version, how can the spirit know happiness if he is just a spirit of compassion now? That's not progression or growth. Cole the person is lost, I'd say because of Solas.

He's still a unique being. You don't change him fundamentally, you just emphasize one or the other of his aspects. To me it feels wrong to deprive him of what makes him truly unique, and make him less able to do what only he can do. It's also more demon-like which I find uncomfortable,considering what he was like when he actually was a demon. Not saying that he's demon-like on the human path, but my associations with that and with how Varric describes his motivation remind me of demons. I also dislike the "Little Mermaid" assumption that becoming a human is superior to existence as a spirit.

Spirits experience some degree of emotions. Wisdom is tormented by what the mages do to her, and happy when Solas releases her. Cole is happy on either side of his personal quest. If you're saying that's not the case, then you are objectively wrong. The writer has even said that they structured the quest so that it would be a positive outcome either way. What you prefer, that does depend on your perception of the character.

[BraveVesperia]

That scene seemed odd to me, specially as Cole wouldn't be like that. It felt out of place. Especially after that in end-game. I went round and spoke to everyone to see what they'd say to me one last time. Everyone said something. Cole didn't even have the 'X' prompt..

That sounds like a bug. I know when I load the post-game, I have to leave Skyhold and come back to make Cole's dialogue trigger.

[Antergaton]

Wouldn't be like what?
 
He's still a unique being. You don't change him fundamentally, you just emphasize one or the other of his aspects. To me it feels wrong to deprive him of what makes him truly unique, and make him less able to do what only he can do. It's also more demon-like which I find uncomfortable,considering what he was like when he actually was a demon. Not saying that he's demon-like on the human path, but my associations with that and with how Varric describes his motivation reminds me of demons. I also dislike the "Little Mermaid" assumption that becoming a human is superior to existence as a spirit.

Spirits experience some degree of emotions. Wisdom is tormented by what the mages do to her, and happy when Solas releases her. Cole is happy on either side of his personal quest. If you're saying that's not the case, then you are objectively wrong. The writer has even said that they structured the quest so that it would be a positive outcome either way. What you prefer, that does depend on your perception of the character.

 

He reacted the same at the end of my first playthrough (human Cole) as he did on 2nd playthrough (Spirit Cole) in the last dinner party scene, same words and dialog practically. The difference in people from Cole to Spirit of Compassion should be evident.

 

Hardly unique when there are other Spirits of Compassion in the fade. I guess, he is unique because he's not in the fade. He's a being out of place. Not once did I think his signs of humanity to be demon like. Being human is better than being a spiri, The Maker's tail admits this, spirits are of one mind, they are of Wisdom, Compassion, Justice, Pride, Desire, whatever. Cole had every emotion, not just a main one, the Cole that feared someone would bind him, the Cole that took cheese for the mouse or crushed mint for cats, with Spirit Cole, he's gone.

[Addai]

He reacted the same at the end of my first playthrough (human Cole) as he did on 2nd playthrough (Spirit Cole) in the last dinner party scene, same words and dialog practically. The difference in people from Cole to Spirit of Compassion should be evident.
 
Hardly unique when there are other Spirits of Compassion in the fade. I guess, he is unique because he's not in the fade. He's a being out of place. Not once did I think his signs of humanity to be demon like. Being human is better than being a spiri, The Maker's tail admits this, spirits are of one mind, they are of Wisdom, Compassion, Justice, Pride, Desire, whatever. Cole had every emotion, not just a main one, the Cole that feared someone would bind him, the Cole that took cheese for the mouse or crushed mint for cats, with Spirit Cole, he's gone.

No, that is a matter of opinion. As Solas says, spirits of compassion are very rare, as are spirits of faith, love, etc. Even more rare are those who can survive encounter with mortals with their positive natures intact.

The way Varric describes his motivation, of wanting to become a person, reminds me of why demons are attracted to the mortal world. It's also wrong. He didn't come through to become a person, he came through to help. That's what he does no matter which direction you go in his quest. I emphasize again that I'm not saying he becomes a demon on the human path, rather that I have uncomfortable associations from that path which makes me prefer the other one.

It is simply not true that with spirit Cole, those actions are gone. The opposite, in fact. He's more able to do those types of things because he's more able to hear what people need, and respond without them seeing or remembering him, which can hinder his ability to help them. OTOH, you could argue that he has more insight into human motivations so he needs less coaching on the human path, but again, this is simply a matter of degree. You don't fundamentally change Cole no matter which path you choose. The idea that you do is simply wrong.

[Antergaton]

The idea that you do is simply wrong.

 

Matter of perspective. You say you don't like the idea of how the Spirit of Compassion is becoming human, well I don't like the idea that Cole's humanity can so easily be removed/forgotten.

[Addai]

Matter of perspective. You say you don't like the idea of how the Spirit of Compassion is becoming human, well I don't like the idea that Cole's humanity can so easily be removed/forgotten.

I understand, but you're stating things about the spirit path as facts which aren't facts at all. Nor is his unique hybrid nature removed completely. He still stays, still looks like Cole, and the writer confirmed that he doesn't forget what happened in the Spire, he just lets it go so that it can't affect him to the degree that it was before. On the spirit path he says he could "almost" slip through back to the Fade, but it's a matter of perspective as to whether you see that as a good thing or not.

[Prince of Keys]

I understand, but you're stating things about the spirit path as facts which aren't facts at all. Nor is his unique hybrid nature removed completely. He still stays, still looks like Cole, and the writer confirmed that he doesn't forget what happened in the Spire, he just lets it go so that it can't affect him to the degree that it was before. On the spirit path he says he could "almost" slip through back to the Fade, but it's a matter of perspective as to whether you see that as a good thing or not.

 

He tells Solas in some banter he could go back to the Fade, actually, but he's staying where he is for now because he can help people. Which is one of the reasons I like the Spirit path--if he wants to go back to the Fade in the future, he can, but he's also free to stay as long as he likes. It's completely up to him.

[BraveVesperia]

I do think a lot of people mis-hear/ misunderstand what Cole says about "forgetting." The writer even clarified that when he says he's forgotten the real Cole (on the spirit path), what he really means is that he's let it go. He doesn't fixate on it. Not that he actually can't remember the person and events.

 

I'm definitely guilty of this. One reason I worried about encouraging Cole to embrace his spirit nature was because I feared the events at the White Spire could repeat themselves if he couldn't remember and learn from them. It's a serious relief to know that isn't the case!

 

He tells Solas in some banter he could go back to the Fade, actually, but he's staying where he is for now because he can help people. Which is one of the reasons I like the Spirit path--if he wants to go back to the Fade in the future, he can, but he's also free to stay as long as he likes. It's completely up to him.

 

That's something I really love about the spirit path! Although I love the human one too, I always felt bad about basically anchoring him to the mundane world, with only the Inquisition and it's members really as a home. On the spirit path, he has the option to return to the Fade if he wants to. His future is more in his hands.

[Korva]

He does talk about giving people food, a blanket or sleep, and you see him give a soldier water.

 

Mm, water or a blanket are "external" objects, what I was wondering was if maybe he can do something "internal" about physical hurt/need, like dampering pain or making someone fall asleep -- but yes, I'd forgotten he specifically mentions sleep, so that answers that.

 

I do think a lot of people mis-hear/ misunderstand what Cole says about "forgetting." The writer even clarified that when he says he's forgotten the real Cole (on the spirit path), what he really means is that he's let it go. He doesn't fixate on it. Not that he actually can't remember the person and events.

 

Weekes said that? Interesting, do you remember when and where?

 

As much as I love the spirit path (*), some of Cole's words feel a bit contradictory. When you talk to him in the tavern and ask about the real Cole, he says, "I don't remember. I let that go. It isn't part of me anymore." Yet if he'd really forgotten, he wouldn't agonize over it during the battlements cutscene.

 

(*) Aside from the Inquisitor just walking off with a "whatever, weirdo" look on her face after that cutscene -- it really feels like the scene was meant for a game state in which you never did Cole's quest and never tried to get close to him or understand him.

 

Also, I'm having to order a new bag of "likes" just for your posts on this thread today, heh.

 

That's something I really love about the spirit path! Although I love the human one too, I always felt bad about basically anchoring him to the mundane world, with only the Inquisition and it's members really as a home. On the spirit path, he has the option to return to the Fade if he wants to. His future is more in his hands.

 

Full agreement. There's a sad twinge that says "He could vanish on us just like that" ... but it's a testament to him as someone who cares and as a friend that he chooses to stay. He's no fickle thing that will disappear the moment it's no longer forced to remain (and Solas would probably have an aggravated lecture ready for anyone who thinks/fears that).

[Addai]

Mm, water or a blanket are "external" objects, what I was wondering was if maybe he can do something "internal" about physical hurt/need, like dampering pain or making someone fall asleep -- but yes, I'd forgotten he specifically mentions sleep, so that answers that.

The mental side of pain is an interesting area, but he seems limited there. Something like that might be too invasive hence demony.

 

Weekes said that? Interesting, do you remember when and where?

I believe it was in the Nerd Appropriate interview.

[MWImexico]

Minds don't heal themselves? I wouldn't agree with that. Most people don't need therapy to work through their problems, they learn coping strategies on their own or from parents and role models.
...

 

I think that the key words here are that "they learn".

I'm sorry for your Grandma, I hope you won't mind if I answer about what you explained about her... my point is that I don't think that Cole is capable of physically healing people so, since some illness like dementia are caused by a (physical) brain dysfonctionnement, I' not sure he could do anything to completely cure a person with a similar problem.

[Addai]

I think that the key words here are that "they learn".

I'm sorry for your Grandma, I hope you won't mind if I answer about what you explained about her... my point is that I don't think that Cole is capable of physically healing people so, since some illness like dementia are caused by a (physical) brain dysfonctionnement, I' not sure he could do anything to completely cure a person with a similar problem.

I meant that it's an extreme example of what people do mentally when they fixate on a trauma, building a story around it in their minds that can leave them trapped. Building a "ball of wrong," as Cole says. Harm from a trauma comes not just from the experience itself, but what people tell themselves about it. They can even begin to remember the experience differently based on their emotional perception of events. This is where I see Cole intervening, to give people a better footing so they can "hope and heal" as he says.

[Dust]

I just made a new desktop background. hope I didn't cut in some important discussions.

A close up version is still slowly rendering. 

 

 

Cole model extracted by Padme4000

Song of Sorrows extracted by Berserker79

Pose in XNALara, render in Blender Cycles

 

DL:

2880x1800

Spoiler

3600x2025

Spoiler

[Pasta]

I just made a new desktop background. hope I didn't cut in some important discussions.

A close up version is still slowly rendering. 

 

 

 

Cole model extracted by Padme4000

Song of Sorrows extracted by Berserker79

Pose in XNALara, render in Blender Cycles

 

-snip-

Spoiler

 

Oh my God. I need that. Like desperately /dies 

 

I wish I know how to use Blender. I'll just have to settle with painting him, lots and lots of painting.

[MWImexico]

I meant that it's an extreme example of what people do mentally when they fixate on a trauma, building a story around it in their minds that can leave them trapped. Building a "ball of wrong," as Cole says. Harm from a trauma comes not just from the experience itself, but what people tell themselves about it. They can even begin to remember the experience differently based on their emotional perception of events. This is where I see Cole intervening, to give people a better footing so they can "hope and heal" as he says.

 

Well that doesn't enter in contradiction with what I was saying

[Dust]

Oh my God. I need that. Like desperately /dies 

 

I wish I know how to use Blender. I'll just have to settle with painting him, lots and lots of painting.

I've never use XNALara before, it's very friendly, you can learn it in a second.

Blender Cycles is however, a little bit tricky. I found a tutorial for you, but it's written in Brazilian.

XNALara is enough as making some references for fan arts though.