Aller au contenu

Photo

Cole discussion, speculation, and fan thread: "How do you know?"


6175 réponses à ce sujet

#876
Gwydden

Gwydden
  • Members
  • 2 815 messages

On him stopping the killing though, I talked a bit about this in the other Cole thread. I do believe a big part of him stopping was because it was Rhys who told him to stop. I don't think he'd do it for just anyone. I think he did it more because he didn't want to lose Rhys (who he's practically living for at that point) and end up all alone again. I don't think he stopped murdering people because he learned it was wrong. Iirc, he even goes on to murder again, slitting templars throats to break Rhys out of his cell.

Sure. But morality is for the most part taught, and you wouldn't listen to just anyone who tried to teach you, right? And the event with the templars seems to be a different situation for me. Killing armed military men to save a loved one (something I think most people would do) is different from killing random desperate civilians to save yourself. The latter is what he was taught was wrong, and I somehow don't think Rhys would have a problem with the former.



#877
Former_Fiend

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

I think perhaps a part of it is that some men and women think that men should be masculine. They should never cry or be sad or scared, they should only ever be aggressive and stoic. Any male who doesn't fit this ideal is a 'Wuss'. Others are strongly drawn towards sympathetic characters, and the former don't like popular characters for some reason.

 
 

 

I think that's an overstatement. Emotion is fine. The problem is that Cole is literally, as per his writer, a child. And thus when he whines, he does so in the manner of a child, and that's annoying.



#878
Gwydden

Gwydden
  • Members
  • 2 815 messages

I think that's an overstatement. Emotion is fine. The problem is that Cole is literally, as per his writer, a child. And thus when he whines, he does so in the manner of a child, and that's annoying.

I'm not sure that is an accurate assessment. Cole didn't really strike me as a child, at all. Yes, I know Gaider said otherwise, but this may just come from a different perception of what childlike means. I, for once, can't stand children yet somehow I liked Cole.



#879
XMissWooX

XMissWooX
  • Members
  • 732 messages

I think that's an overstatement. Emotion is fine. The problem is that Cole is literally, as per his writer, a child. And thus when he whines, he does so in the manner of a child, and that's annoying.


Except I see this with characters other than Cole.
Some people were very critical of Fenris because he's a 'whiner'.
I personally felt that Fenris had plenty of reason to whine.

Edit: it also applies to Anders and Alistair. Zevran seemed to get a free pass because he hid behind a wall of humour. I don't think any of the women have been accused of 'whining'.
  • Fryun aime ceci

#880
SnakeCode

SnakeCode
  • Members
  • 2 675 messages

Sure. But morality is for the most part taught, and you wouldn't listen to just anyone who tried to teach you, right? And the event with the templars seems to be a different situation for me. Killing armed military men to save a loved one (something I think most people would do) is different from killing random desperate civilians to save yourself. The latter is what he was taught was wrong, and I somehow don't think Rhys would have a problem with the former.

But when those armed military men are just standing guard, and Cole was invisible?  He could just as easily knocked them out as kill them. What of their families? Their loved ones?



#881
Former_Fiend

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

I'm not sure that is an accurate assessment. Cole didn't really strike me as a child, at all. Yes, I know Gaider said otherwise, but this may just come from a different perception of what childlike means. I, for once, can't stand children yet somehow I liked Cole.

 

I don't dislike Cole, but he always struck me as obviously child like. His first scene with Rhys where Rhys is trying to convince him to show himself to the templars to clear Rhys' name, the way he refused was just like a child throwing a tantrum. 

 

Except I see this with characters other than Cole.
Some people were very critical of Fenris because he's a 'whiner'.
I personally felt that Fenris had plenty of reason to whine.

Edit: it also applies to Anders and Alistair. Zevran seemed to get a free pass because he hid behind a wall of humour. I don't think any of the women have been accused of 'whining'.

 

I'm not saying that the mentality doesn't exist, I'm saying that it's not the direct cause of any dislike towards Cole; or perhaps, rather, it's a fully justified accusation towards Cole since Cole has the mentality of a child.



#882
Gwydden

Gwydden
  • Members
  • 2 815 messages

But when those armed military men are just standing guard, and Cole was invisible?  He could just as easily knocked them out as kill them. What of their families? Their loved ones?

Did Leliana think about it? She was the one who wanted to kill them in the first place. For some strange reason, NO ONE thought that was an option, even if the thought did cross my mind.



#883
SnakeCode

SnakeCode
  • Members
  • 2 675 messages

Except I see this with characters other than Cole.
Some people were very critical of Fenris because he's a 'whiner'.
I personally felt that Fenris had plenty of reason to whine.

It always makes me laugh how people defend Anders because of all the "abuse" he received in the circle (escaped seven times and the worst punishment he got was solitary confinement) and in the same breath dismiss Fenris for whining.



#884
SnakeCode

SnakeCode
  • Members
  • 2 675 messages

Did Leliana think about it? She was the one who wanted to kill them in the first place. For some strange reason, NO ONE thought that was an option, even if the thought did cross my mind.

No one ever does. I think that's a large problem of these games/novels. Nothing ever gets to be resolved non-violently. Diplomacy is something i'd like to see far more of in DA:I.


  • Gwydden aime ceci

#885
Gwydden

Gwydden
  • Members
  • 2 815 messages

It always makes me laugh how people defend Anders because of all the "abuse" he received in the circle (escaped seven times and the worst punishment he got was solitary confinement) and in the same breat dismiss Fenris for whining.

Didn't you get the memo? "Whining" is code for "had a crappy life, and dares actually talk about it when you ask him"  :D


  • Ammonite et SnakeCode aiment ceci

#886
XMissWooX

XMissWooX
  • Members
  • 732 messages

I'm not saying that the mentality doesn't exist, I'm saying that it's not the direct cause of any dislike towards Cole; or perhaps, rather, it's a fully justified accusation towards Cole since Cole has the mentality of a child.

 

That's definitely a possibly. I'm personally not fond of children and I'm not very patient, but I saw Cole as more confused and desperate than childish so that didn't bother me. He did shown signs of maturing towards the end of the book, and I hope this is a direction we can move him in for DAI.

 

It always makes me laugh how people defend Anders because of all the "abuse" he received in the circle (escaped seven times and the worst punishment he got was solitary confinement) and in the same breat dismiss Fenris for whining.


I have to roll to my eyes at people who call victims of serious abuse 'whiners'. Particularly when said people have quite possibly never experienced serious abuse at all.
  • Ammonite et CuriousArtemis aiment ceci

#887
Gwydden

Gwydden
  • Members
  • 2 815 messages

No one ever does. I think that's a large problem of these games/novels. Nothing ever gets to be resolved non-violently. Diplomacy is something i'd like to see far more of in DA:I.

Agreed. All I'm pointing out is that it is unfair to call Cole (pun not intended) out on it when our PCs and their companions, when faced with a horde of random mooks standing in their way, immediately resort to casually killing them, ignoring the fact that these random mooks no doubt had lives and loved ones of their own.

 

I actually like games that give you the option to go through them while keeping killing to a minimum, like Deus Ex or Assassin's Creed. In those games I actually make it a rule to avoid killing anyone I don't absolutely have to.


  • SnakeCode aime ceci

#888
Former_Fiend

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

A lot of our companions have been murderers, but I don't think we've had an out and out serial killer before, with the possible exception of Zevran(there's some debate over whether or not killers for hire count). 

 

And a lot of people didn't like having Zevran or Sten on the team specifically because they were murderers, so it's not as if these complaints are out of no where and no one has ever spoken against having a cold blooded killer on the team before.


  • SnakeCode aime ceci

#889
SnakeCode

SnakeCode
  • Members
  • 2 675 messages

Agreed. All I'm pointing out is that it is unfair to call Cole (pun not intended) out on it when our PCs and their companions, when faced with a horde of random mooks standing in their way, immediately resort to casually kill them, ignoring the fact that these random mooks no doubt had lives and loved ones of their own.

 

I actually like games that give you the option to go through them while keeping killing to a minimum, like Deus Ex or Assassin's Creed. In those games I actually make it a rule to avoid killing anyone I don't absolutely have to.

I agree allthough to be fair, in game (at least as far as Dragon Age goes) We generally don't murder guards who are just doing their jobs (who don't attack us first.) As a party we are generally the ones being attacked, often for little to no reason.

 

The only times I can think of our companions killing Guards just doing their job is certain instances at Fort Drakon, when the Warden is beingheld captive. Such as the part where you can kill some unsuspecting guards with the crossbow (something I personally never do.)

 

I believe Mark of the Assassin is the only part of either game where we can sneak past Guards without killing them.



#890
Gwydden

Gwydden
  • Members
  • 2 815 messages

I agree allthough to be fair, in game (at least as far as Dragon Age goes) We generally don't murder guards who are just doing their jobs (who don't attack us first.) As a party we are generally the ones being attacked, often for little to no reason.

 

The only times I can think of our companions killing Guards just doing their job is certain instances at Fort Drakon, when the Warden is beingheld captive. Such as the part where you can kill some unsuspecting guards with the crossbow (something I personally never do.)

 

I believe Mark of the Assassin is the only part of either game where we can sneak past Guards without killing them.

Well, if you wanted to recover Martin's cargo, you had to kill the guards near the warehouse, unless you had a sarcastic Hawke and could bullshit your way in xD



#891
XMissWooX

XMissWooX
  • Members
  • 732 messages

I believe Mark of the Assassin is the only part of either game where we can sneak past Guards without killing them.


In Arl Howe's estate and when the Warden is escaping Fort Drakon, you can wear disguises which allow you to walk around unchallenged. In the estate, you can also avoid killing some guards once your disguise is gone by not checking that area of the estate, thus not antagonising them.

I'm a fan of those sections not only because I don't have to kill everyone, but also because it makes a nice change of pace from constant combat. Hopefully we can get some more sections like this in DAI. In fact, if Cole still has his powers he could prove to be useful at stealth approaches.

#892
KirstyLionheart

KirstyLionheart
  • Members
  • 428 messages

Hm, lets see. Isabela killed at least one boatful of slaves to save herself from Orlesian authority. Sten killed villagers, including Bethany's friend. Zevran was an assassin. Anders killed whatever clergy was in the chantry. All these characters killed innocents, and I'm probably forgetting a few companions that also killed innocents. In my opinion Cole isn't that bad in the scale of very morally questionable acts companions have done. lol

 

I'm so glad you pointed this out, as this was my point on another thread regarding Cole.

And I'm almost certain a handful of our DAI companions will admit to some sort of atrocities too. Poor Cole. <3



#893
CENIC

CENIC
  • Members
  • 1 714 messages
It won't affect me one way or another if Cole becomes as polarizing of a character as Anders. There are plenty of people who love Anders anyway, and some who even condone his actions.
As long as I have a thread to gush about how much I like Cole (without people trying to convince me I'm wrong) I'll be just fine! :D
  • KirstyLionheart et AddieTheElf aiment ceci

#894
Former_Fiend

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

I don't think anyone's wrong for liking Cole. I rather like Cole, though not nearly as much as some here.

 

My only thing is I find any desire to romance him to be creepy, for reasons already stated. 

 

Aside from that, while I personally don't want him on the team, I don't mind it too much and more power to his fans for getting him. As it stands Sera's looking pretty likeable and if not I've always got Varric to fall back on, so I'm not going to be feeling the loss too much.



#895
KirstyLionheart

KirstyLionheart
  • Members
  • 428 messages

It won't affect me one way or another if Cole becomes as polarizing of a character as Anders. There are plenty of people who love Anders anyway, and some who even condone his actions.
As long as I have a thread to gush about how much I like Cole (without people trying to convince me I'm wrong) I'll be just fine! :D

This (:

We all like different characters for different reasons, and we all have characters we dislike/hate.

And as you said, as long as I can come here with like-minded people and talk about our lovely Cole without being scrutinized , I'm happy. (:


  • CENIC aime ceci

#896
CENIC

CENIC
  • Members
  • 1 714 messages

My only thing is I find any desire to romance him to be creepy, for reasons already stated.


We've both made our cases on this. Agree to disagree? ;)

Aside from that, while I personally don't want him on the team, I don't mind it too much and more power to his fans for getting him.


I can sympathize with feeling like a certain character is "taking up" a slot you'd much rather see someone different in. It's how I feel about Varric and Sera, actually! I'm trying to remain positive about the party roster by reminding myself that I wasn't particularly enthused about DA2's cast, but after a couple playthroughs I found myself more attached to them than most of Origins'.

#897
Former_Fiend

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

This (:

We all like different characters for different reasons, and we all have characters we dislike/hate.

And as you said, as long as I can come here with like-minded people and talk about our lovely Cole without being scrutinized , I'm happy. (:

 

I would like to point out that this is not a Cole fan thread, it's a Cole discussion thread. While I certainly don't want to turn it into a Cole hate thread or anything of the sort, I also don't think anyone should be precluded from posting a negative opinion regarding Cole.

 

 

We've both made our cases on this. Agree to disagree? ;)


I can sympathize with feeling like a certain character is "taking up" a slot you'd much rather see someone different in. It's how I feel about Varric and Sera, actually! I'm trying to remain positive about the party roster by reminding myself that I wasn't particularly enthused about DA2's cast, but after a couple playthroughs I found myself more attached to them than most of Origins'.

 

Absolutely; not starting that discussion again.

 

And honestly I kind of feel the same way about Varric; I've said this I don't know how many times, but I have this thing in my mind where the Warden's team should be the Warden's team, Hawke's team should be Hawke's team, and the Inquisitor's team should be the Inquisitor's team, with as little overlap as possible. I was against Anders' inclusion in DA2 and I'm not thrilled about Varric in DAI, either. Though I'm a little more comfortable with him because I'm pretty sure I'll at least be able to get along with him, where as most everyone else is a questionmark. 


  • SnakeCode aime ceci

#898
phyreblade74

phyreblade74
  • Members
  • 951 messages

So I just finished reading through Asunder.  Had me thinking about Cole, of course.  So I ventured to the forums to better refine my considerations.  I figured I'd throw up my thoughts, as they are, even before I read through all 30-some-odd posts from others who're just as fascinated.

 

What he is is probably a paramount question, in any case.  I thought on whether he was anything like Wynne, a poor boy who was brought back to life by a benevolent spirit.  But I can't wrap my head around that, and the way he was effected by the Litany.  That, and at the very end of Asunder, he remarks that the Templars eventually "found Cole and removed all evidence of what they'd done".  That means, to me, that Cole's body was "removed", even if no means of it is ever described.

 

Neither do I think he's anything of a "good" spirit, like Justice was when he's first thrust into the real world back in Awakenings.  The fact he uses the spilling of blood so that he can persist means, to me, that he's far more likely a spirit on the other end of spectrum.  In simple DA terms, he's a demon.

 

Here's the thing: I think this is Bioware's way of more fully examining the real nature of the Fade and the spirits that inhabit it.  We've been given two examples of "good" spirits in our companions already.  It makes sense that the story will allow a greater depth of understanding, will explore an aspect of the Fade's spirits that we haven't truly experienced yet.  Except in the most superficial of ways, of course.  This will be our chance to really "get to know" a true demonic spirit.

 

So I think Cole is a demon.  Which had me wondering what sort of demon he is, and I went by the process of elimination to figure out what we're dealing with, here.  Pride?  Heck, no.  Cole is as far from prideful as anyone I've considered.  He struggles with feelings of self-hatred, more like.  Not sure a pride demon would've been attracted at all to a dying figure of Cole in that dungeon, if he was self-flagellating himself so completely as he surely was after his sister's death. 

 

Not desire, either.  Cole isn't at all some seeker of pleasures, isn't throwing himself into lust or passions of some kind.  He tends to be pretty angry, justifiably, but he doesn't lack control enough that I'd consider him a rage demon.  Not really hungry, either.  He avoids people and their notice too much for me to think he's a hunger demon.  He doesn't try eating people, at least, shrug.

 

To me, there are a few possibilities:

(1)  Cole's a sloth demon.  Sloth demons derive power from those off on their own, alone and unwilling to fight or move.  The way Cole seeks out those who want to die, lost alone, and he convinces them to give up -- that could be indicative of a sloth demon's machinations.  However, sloth demons typically take on a physical form through actual possession.  And Cole doesn't seem, to me, to be a possessed abomination of some kind.

(2) Or Cole is a Shade.  A shade doesn't have to possess anyone, they persist in their very own demonic form.  That, and they feed off the minds' energy of those around them.  They are shadow creatures, often barely noticed.  Think Gaxkang, as one example.  It's very likely this describes Cole exactly.  What with his ability to go unseen and even be forgotten.

(3)  There is one last chance, though.  David Gaider has remarked we'd see a brand new demon type in Inquisition, a major demon type that we've never encountered in lore before.  There are several types that fit that description, including despair, fear and guilt.  I also find it interesting that HE is the writer that mentions this particular note, if only because he's the author who's made Cole.

 

I'm very nearly positive that Cole's a demon.  The real kicker, for me, however, is that the story is probably challenging us in our considerations of such questions and natures.  It's easy to hear "he's a demon" and instantly jump to the conclusion that Cole is "bad" and "needs to be destroyed".  Heck, chances are some of the companions will probably try to kill Cole out of hand, once his nature is really understood.  Maybe the Inquisitor will, even.  Wouldn't be the first time we were given leave to destroy a possible party member, after all.

 

But this could be taken as a prime opportunity to better understand the overall nature of the Fade itself, what it is and what sort of creatures inhabit it.  That they take on such mirrors of our own emotions and experiences is worth noting, mind you.  If we're to take our own emotional experiences and judge them as "good" and "bad" and seek to destroy them out of hand, what does it say about how we view ourselves and each other?  Although that waxes dangerously philosophical, too, doesn't it?

 

I only think Cole is going to be a purely fascinating edition to our game experience.  And I am desperately looking forward to "meeting" him, hehe.


  • Solas aime ceci

#899
CENIC

CENIC
  • Members
  • 1 714 messages

I would like to point out that this is not a Cole fan thread, it's a Cole discussion thread. While I certainly don't want to turn it into a Cole hate thread or anything of the sort, I also don't think anyone should be precluded from posting a negative opinion regarding Cole.


To be fair, if anyone tried to make a fan thread for Cole at this point they would probably be directed to post here instead, so there isn't a non-judgemental hugbox thread available for those of us who might like one.
Once the game launches, we should try making one, though! I vote Mort for thread creator. :P
  • KirstyLionheart aime ceci

#900
KirstyLionheart

KirstyLionheart
  • Members
  • 428 messages

I would like to point out that this is not a Cole fan thread, it's a Cole discussion thread. While I certainly don't want to turn it into a Cole hate thread or anything of the sort, I also don't think anyone should be precluded from posting a negative opinion regarding Cole.

Oh no, I'm certainly not saying all opinions aren't welcome. It's just nice to talk about Cole with other people that don't have negative opinions about him or want to change simple character appreciation/discussion into debate. That's all. Cole is a controversial character, and always will be. I expect differing opinions and respect them but also like my opinions to be respected too. ^^


  • CENIC aime ceci