1323 réponses à ce sujet

[ahellbornlady]

Explicitly define which schools you mean (I think I know, but I want it stated simply because people may take what I say out of context).  The DA2 all bisexual model is one thing, while I'm assuming you mean 2/2/2 with 2 hetero/gay/bisexual?

 

That's right. 2 hetero/gay/bisexual, preferably with an even split between genders.

[Maria Caliban]

Bioware never makes the butch stereotypes the lesbian options though, which makes me extremely nervous...

BioWare doesn't make butch women, period.

[Spectre slayer]

Man this thread got really heated, anyway I saw some people talking about some of the things Gaider talked about and that he would prefer varied sexualitys as opposed to playersexual romances.

Totally okay with this, actually.The issue with the “all-bisexual” romances, as I see it (or the issue for which I can see at least some merit, anyhow), is one of perception—that the followers in Dragon Age are simply vehicles for romances as opposed to characters in their own right with their own motivations.

A player simply selects a follower— “I want you!”— and that follower immediately surrenders all agency to the player’s will.It’s not really true, but I think it’s a perception fueled by an overreaction to the fact that there are fans who do like the romances a great deal (and talk about it extensively, whereas there are fans who vehemently oppose the romances being the most important element in the game… not that they are or ever have been, but clearly if they do not actively oppose the idea we BioWare developers will succumb to the notion that it’s so).

I imagine there are also fans who don’t mind the idea of the romances working that way—just pick whoever you want and they will reciprocate. Why? Because the player wants it, and isn’t this game about fantasy fulfillment?It’s not, though there’s nothing wrong with somebody wanting that—and it’s completely excusable that there are those who think that’s what the game is or should be. We’ve always been more interested in establishing a believable world and believable characters, and the romances—to us—are an extension of that rather than the purpose for it.

Having equal opportunities for romance plots is a point of fairness and not indicative of a shift in the purpose of those plots, and I’d be fine with having more restrictions rather than less—of having some romances simply not working out, or less romances in total (even if they’re equally distributed in number).

Ah. So that’s what all the anonymous tweets shouting “biphobic” at me this past weekend have been about.For those who’ve decided the “playersexual” comment is something I came up with, I’ll just say it’s not.

There are a group of DA fans who insist on calling the DA2 romances that, however— hence why I said “whatever you want to call them” and put it in quotes. I don’t agree with the term, but there you have it. In terms of bisexuality and our romances, I’ve discussed them numerous times before. Here, or here, for instance.

My saying that I don’t think players have the right to romance any character no matter who they’re playing is not the same as saying that bisexuality doesn’t exist or that BioWare will suddenly remove bisexual romances from our games.

As I’ve said before, my ideal would be to have an array of sexualities— including bisexuality— if there were enough romance plots to go around. Failing that, having bisexual romances is still the fairest way to go.

So I hear what you’re saying (as in the plural “you”), and I see I also typo’d “playersexual” in my original post— sorry about that— but the anger here is misdirected. Plain and simple.

http://social.biowar...ndex/17572518/1

Actually, I would not. Surprising? Perhaps. If we had more resources, I suppose I wouldn’t mind allowing the player to try romancing every follower, but to allow them to successfully do so? No, I can’t say that appeals to me very much for two main reasons:

1) Romances are a side show, not the main game. Yes, some people like them a lot, and I have absolutely no beef with them doing so. In fact, it’s very gratifying. While I suppose a game could be made where the romantic plot takes a level of importance equal to that of the critical path, that has never been the case with the games BioWare makes. These plots are tertiary, optional content… something to add to your enjoyment, and add to your level of emotional investment in the characters… and that seems to get forgotten when people discuss it at length.

Such is the case whenever any piece of content gets discussed online. Under a microscope, whatever you’re discussing seems like all there is… and thus is clearly the most important thing ever. I cannot do that. I always have to keep my eye on the bigger picture, and there is an entire rest of the game that needs to be contended with… which includes a lot of elements that have much more pertinence to the game than who someone does or doesn’t get to have sex with. Romances are a nice extra, and naturally we’re always going to struggle with how to do them right, but they’re well down the list on things I need to concern myself with. I could, in fact, happily have a game without any romances at all… or spend an equal amount of time developing relationships with followers that are non-romantic.
Occasionally the focus on romances reaches such a fever pitch that idea seems rather attractive, actually. But only occasionally.

2) I dislike the idea of every character being sexually available to the player. Not that it cheapens them, necessarily, but it would lend itself towards their objectification. Take the first Witcher game, for instance— I enjoyed many things about that game, but the collectible sex card mechanic? Ultimately it rendered every female character in the game into a puzzle to be solved. What do I do to sleep with them? How do I get their card? Yes, you can ignore the mechanic (I certainly tried, even though I ended up sleeping with several characters purely by accident) but having the mechanic in the first place necessitates a difference in how they are approached, both from a writing and implementation standpoint.

As soon as the player is aware it’s possible, you are in fact encouraging them towards a certain type of behavior. Even ignoring the awkwardness of doing that solely to female characters, doing it to all characters equally would still make them be viewed as potential romances and thus change how the player related to them.
————
I don’t put a lot of stock in the fans who get upset at the amount of discourse regarding the romances, and who are very vocal about how it should be eliminated completely. Yes, some of the discussion can indeed be juvenile… but much of the complaining seems to be centered on the idea this is something only female gamers do. Fangirls. And whatever the fangirls are squeeing excitedly about is obviously diluting the “serious” nature of RPG’s… ignoring just how juvenile other gamers can be about the myriad of obsessions they have in these games as well as the fact that the fixation on romances is hardly exclusive to females at all (as the angst over the Morrigan romance back in the day would clearly attest).

I would, however, resist making the romance elements of our games more prominent without also changing the nature of that content. Adding an element of failure, for instance, or by having not all characters be available to all player characters (they’re attracted only to certain types, for instance). Adding different types of romance: tragic romances, romances where your partner cheats on you, romances where the character is already involved in another relationship, characters that don’t know how to relate to someone else on a romantic level or aren’t interested in such. It needn’t all be unhappy, of course, but were I to cross the threshold of making all followers possible to romance I’d at least want to change the approach into something more plausible. To me, the idea that a player should get their followers and then simply select one or more companions to be their romance, and that romance is their cuddly bunny for the entirety of the game and plays out exactly as they wish, would be the worst of both worlds. It would be wish fulfillment on a level that reduced the characters into romantic playthings— sex dolls, really. And I have no interest in creating that, even if there are people who think it’d be grand.

Would doing romances in that way actually be popular? Probably not. Take the resolution of the Thane romance arc in ME3, for instance. There are people who did (and still do) think that, having selected Thane as their romance, they should have been able to cure him of his illness and make everything better. Why? Because he’s their romance, and they’re entitled to have it be a happy one. Regardless of whether you think they are justified in feeling so, they do. I don’t think plausibility is really what they’re looking for.

So that would leave us at an impasse… some might appreciate such an approach, and some might even enjoy the stories, but I suspect many who are looking for romance in their story are hoping for something more fulfilling… and would likely be put out if their choice ended up getting the short end of the stick (from their point of view) compared to some of the other romances. The discussion would change from “oh! I get to romance this character?” to comparisons with other romances and assurances that, because their character didn’t work out as they envisioned it, that must be because they’re not “legitimate” choices.

Just thinking about that makes my brain ache a little, actually.
So, no, I’m quite fine with selecting a few characters and having them be romantic options and letting the rest be simply what they are.

My preference is that the romances cover a range of styles and sexualities as evenly as we can, and that they have comparable levels of content, and leave it at that. If someone doesn’t find something to their liking in that particular game, chances are we’ll have a whole different batch in the next game (I do find it rather amusing how people always assume we’ll write exactly the same characters in the next game as the current one— even though we never have, the assumption is the same after every game).

In the meantime, there are hopefully friendships and rivalries among the followers that you can develop, and reasons to appreciate each of them beyond whether they can be sexed to your liking, as well as that whole other thing we wrote.
You know. The plot.

http://dgaider.tumbl...mances-in-games

Iprobably have more links but, yeah he prefers set and varied sexualitys with a fairly even spread.

[DreGregoire]

Where you rivals? Maybe I got hit with a bug =/

 

More than likely not. I'm a fan of humoring the dwarf.

[PinkDiamondstl]

BioWare doesn't make butch women, period.

 Aveline was quite butch 

[ohmyashlee]

I love this idea. I think it will definitely make the characters feel more fleshed out. I'm going to replay the hell out of the game so this will present more of a variety with each new character I play. Naturally, being a woman I like to play as a female character when I'm actually given the choice, but mixing things up playing as a character of a different sex or race seems fun. I just hope the variation doesn't end with who you can likely romance.

[Mes]

 sexual orientation is a typically a detail that varies from person to person.  It is almost never a defining characteristic.

 

 

BINGO.

 

Which is part of the reason why this limitation irritates me - they are limiting player choices by trying to enforce a very small character detail, so what's the point?

[Grieving Natashina]

I think it's safe to say I'm a masochist as I've only *almost* reached the end despite starting hours ago....

As a moderator on a fan site, as well as a former guild leader in an end game raiding guild (Wrath of the Lich King, and I got to raid lead too) I salute you.  

[Maria Caliban]

Aveline was quite butch

Pfft.

Hollywood butch. Like like gorgeous women with glasses are supposed to be 'plain janes.'

[Lady Nuggins]

I have absolutely no evidence to back this up, but I think there may be an equal number of straight, gay, and bi LIs.

 

See, the thing is, Bioware just doesn't have the best track record for this.  They have made efforts, and the DA team, in particular, is very conscious of these issues, but honestly even Origins was unsatisfactory for me.  Two straight characters who have direct impact on the plot and two non-straight ones who don't?  Zevran implying that he only slept with men because it helped with his job as an assassin?  Zevran being the cliche flirty oversexed bisexual?  

 

I want to hope they'll handle this well.  I do.  I put a lot of faith in the DA team.  But Bioware's history, coupled with how this news was presented, makes me worried.

[Zjarcal]

If your Inquisitor doesn't die, the ending cinematic is a giant Orlesan ball with Cullen served naked on a silver platter and everyone, um, digging in.

So all of them.

At once.

 

I can already see the Fox News article about this.

[Ryzaki]

BINGO.

 

Which is part of the reason why this limitation irritates me - they are limiting player choices by trying to enforce a very small character detail, so what's the point?

 

I'm with you.

 

I rather have fewer LIs with them all having more content than spread out and restrictive. But that's what they're gonna do so *shrugs* I just really hope this doesn't mean a return to straight males getting the lion's share of the pie and everyone else has to make due with the scraps because that blew.

[Lenimph]

Pfft.

Hollywood butch. Like like gorgeous women with glasses are supposed to be 'plain janes.'

Jack was pretty butch... 

[Grieving Natashina]

Pfft.

Hollywood butch. Like like gorgeous women with glasses are supposed to be 'plain janes.'

I agree and I also think she's lovely.  As I've stated in the past, the only reason why I was never attracted to Aveline (nor ever tried to flirt with her) is because she looks almost uncannily like my sister-in-law.

 

The "Plain Jane" point kind of reminds me of the "glasses, ponytail and paint covered overalls" joke.  Take off the glasses, take down the hair, put on a dress and POOF!  Instant hottie.  

[Maria Caliban]

I can already see the Fox News article about this.

Cameron said we'd be seeing different and complex sexual orientations. That's certainly different, and it's logistically and ergonomically complex.

[Ryzaki]

Jack was pretty butch... 

 

Jack had the most attractive and feminine face in the game though.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Pfft.

Hollywood butch. Like like gorgeous women with glasses are supposed to be 'plain janes.'

 

Sure butch is looks but its definitely deeper then that (this is also relevant to Jack comments)...and also butch does not mean not pretty.

[Phate Phoenix]

If your Inquisitor doesn't die, the ending cinematic is a giant Orlesan ball with Cullen served naked on a silver platter and everyone, um, digging in.

So all of them.

At once.

 

[BLINKS] [RUBS EYES] [BLINKS AGAIN]

 

All I can think of is vore. Do not google that, children.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm with you.

 

I rather have fewer LIs with them all having more content than spread out and restrictive. But that's what they're gonna do so *shrugs* I just really hope this doesn't mean a return to straight males getting the lion's share of the pie and everyone else has to make due with the scraps because that blew.

 

Personally I was hoping for six bisexual LI's. 

 

I think if there was a real flaw with the DA2 system it was that the LI's ended up being very extreme ends of their respective spectrums. I think having six LI's, ala ME2, offered more well rounded characters.

[Milana]

Juat give Cullen and Dorian for my male inquisitor   dont care about the rest

[PinkDiamondstl]

All of this moaning and groaning won't change a single thing it's done .So why continue on like this?

[Ryzaki]

Sure butch is looks but its definitely deeper then that (this is also relevant to Jack comments)...and also butch does not mean not pretty.

 

True.

[Ryzaki]

Personally I was hoping for six bisexual LI's. 

 

I think if there was a real flaw with the DA2 system it was that the LI's ended up being very extreme ends of their respective spectrums. I think having six LI's, ala ME2, offered more well rounded characters.

 

Six LIs for me at least is where BW romances start getting skimpy and screwing up with the friendship tracks. At that point for me the amount of content isn't worth it.

 

DAO did fine with four LIs. DA2's problem was...well to be frank it wasn't very good. And being extremists in that asinine plot wasn't helpful.