99 réponses à ce sujet

[Althix]

 I don't know what is.

some noise on the background? it hardly matters really. Let assume that Cursed one will save billions by feeding himself to a First Flame. Will it make game more "world interactive"? Because otherwise guys like Magnus will be jumping around all day long. Billions of lives at stake in DS game. Feels better? OK, now kill more bosses.

 

Save Thedas from the Blight by killing these guys, fetching this thing. Billions lives at stake as well. No go and fetch me... i don't know.... Urn of Sacred Ashes... or close some barrels in some god forsaken alley.

 

Point is, that whatever you do in souls games and da/me games hardly matters in a long run. Because plot is set long before, and so called different outcomes is just some extra spice. Difference between these games, that BW products depends on characters, when FromSoftware products depends on combat and hidden lore.

 

p.s. i have no idea what gamerscore is because i don't have a console and never will have one.

[Rawgrim]

Bottlenecking and kiting worked just fine in DAO. Hell, whenever I hear someone talking about "tactical" combat being impossible in DA2 it usually turns out that he's complaining about the enemy reinforcements making bottlenecking difficult.

 

And friendly fire being turned off. No need for tactics in that one.

[Boss Fog]

I know the dev team has stated in the past that they really admire the Souls games for their level cohesion.  Keep in mind Dark Souls and Dragon Age worlds are so completely different that Bioware could only try to emulate it in theory.  Also, in my personal opinion some of the greatsword animations we've seen look like they were taken right out of the Claymore move set from Dark Souls.  

 

The inclusion of the new dodge roll system seems that it might stem from the Souls series as well since dodge rolling is a huge part of those games.  If anything is similar between the two series, it will most likely be only cosmetic since the games are so different.

[In Exile]

Bottlenecking and kiting worked just fine in DAO. Hell, whenever I hear someone talking about "tactical" combat being impossible in DA2 it usually turns out that he's complaining about the enemy reinforcements making bottlenecking difficult.

 

Which confuses me because bottlenecks were super easy to create in DA:2. Everything was a corridor. You literally had to walk to one end of the corridor and then you just created a kill zone. I personally think it's the MMO mentality of using aggro-drawing abilities that creates this problem because everyone just grounds around the player in a melee. 

[Deflagratio]

some noise on the background? it hardly matters really. Let assume that Cursed one will save billions by feeding himself to a First Flame. Will it make game more "world interactive"? Because otherwise guys like Magnus will be jumping around all day long. Billions of lives at stake in DS game. Feels better? OK, now kill more bosses.

 

Save Thedas from the Blight by killing these guys, fetching this thing. Billions lives at stake as well. No go and fetch me... i don't know.... Urn of Sacred Ashes... or close some barrels in some god forsaken alley.

 

Point is, that whatever you do in souls games and da/me games hardly matters in a long run. Because plot is set long before, and so called different outcomes is just some extra spice. Difference between these games, that BW products depends on characters, when FromSoftware products depends on combat and hidden lore.

 

p.s. i have no idea what gamerscore is because i don't have a console and never will have one.

 

Can anyone else make sense of this? It sounds to me like Althnix hasn't played either game.

 

Also, Plot is not set "Long Before". Game Development is not linear in that way.

[hallfing]

Please don't copy anything from common grinders.

Thanks.

"Common Ginders" Are you even aware of what type of a game Dark Souls is? And to be completely honest Dark Souls and Dark Souls II got better reviews than "Dragon Age II"

As for copying - No. BioWare is essentially an RPG studio (though lately I don't see many "RPG" eleemnts holding on.) and they are better off not copying anything.

[TurretSyndrome]

Regardless of what people want, they did mention recently that they are not looking into Dark Souls combat much. It's evident that Bioware has their own plans for crafting the combat system in DA:I and I'm sure it will be quite different from Dark Souls series, for better or worse.

[philippe willaume]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Player skill has always been able to overcome Character skill. Even in the P&P realm.

 

Looking at player skill and character skill as different things, rather than two sides of the same coin invalidates the idea of gaming as a whole. Interactivity necessitates player involvement, and thus some measurement of personal skill investment.

 

That said, in a Class-based game like Dragon Age: Inquisition, how much investment should yield a return? I think the combat realm is perhaps the limitation of where this return should come from, which actually lends itself to the tactical focus of the game.

 

In games like Skyrim, where you can literally have zero Lockpicking skill, and break master locks open with minimal effort (If you're good at that sort of thing like I am), it makes a little less sense. The idea of player skill trumping character skill in this case can create that sense of cognitive dissonance.

 

My general feeling is, Character Skill tells you want you can do. Player skill determines how well you can do it, though there's certainly some overlap between the two.

 

Remember that Dark Souls is a game just about combat. There is no world agency besides killing things, which makes it a poor example to compare to with games that focus much more on world interactions like Dragon Age.

 

hello deflagratio

is it not same argument as talking about accuracy and opposing riffle accuracy vs shooter accuracy without looking at how the gun is used or is intended for ?

basically teh crux of the argument is the context in which it is applied.

 

So sure, at a high level i fundamentally agree with you. Ie even in a tactical round based game, the player skill, by maximizing the conditions for the game system, can have a character perform above the character skill level, but that is what that type of game is designed for.

In some FSP/action, you could chose a character which Would translate in how much leeway you would have as the timing of key press. Again this is what the game is designed for and it is all good

Basically, it is like using vectored roll with FW 190 to "out turn" Spitfire in a flight simulator. (ie using the high roll rate instead of the not so grate low speed turn rate, which turns out to be historically accurate).

 

now if your game is about charterer development, and even more so class and level, we are not really in the same case as the case above.Having the ability to perform a skill to more than a basic level without spending character point is a fundamental flow in that type of game, Because this is what the game is about and my mouse-dexterity and/or sheer number of lockpick should not trump my char not having the lock pick skills.

it is exactly as daft has getting a head shot in tactical turn based game for no other reason that you holding the mouse on the head of the target

 

it does not matter if is FPS, action, RPG, tactical turn based, if the game system is based on skill for tool usage and performance, The result of player skills  should be constrained by that to the same extend.

 

Phil

[philippe willaume]

Can anyone else make sense of this? It sounds to me like Althnix hasn't played either game.

 

Also, Plot is not set "Long Before". Game Development is not linear in that way.

 

I believe that his point is that DA:0 you will end up fighting the old god regardless. and that like in DS you can go or not go to certain location(side and part of the main quest you chose to do or not to do in DA:0) you will end up fighting the same monster-level-boss for that section.

 

Thus alluding that  the "world interaction" in DA/ME is purely cosmetic and that you could had similar fluff to DS without fundamentally changing the game.

 

whilst technically true, you can basically reduce any game to that level.

I.e. if you play a WWI flight simulator in campaign mode you will eventually end up at the end of the war regardless of witch side, units, or part of the front you chose to play.

 

@ Althix

It is true that DA:2 act III will play out the same regardless but ACT2 will play and result with large degree of variance according to the decision the player made.

 

 

phil

[CybAnt1]

You know, there is a difference between "borrow this one combat feature from Dark Souls" (have weapon use be constrained by environment) and "copy their combat as much as possible". I could have responded to this message if the first thing was what the OP/title SAID ..., but the latter was in fact what they asked for. Thus was how I responded to it.

 

BTW, I get why you would need to switch weapons in narrow corridors, but how often in DA are you fighting in such constrained environments. 

[Wulfram]

BTW, I get why you would need to switch weapons in narrow corridors, but how often in DA are you fighting in such constrained environments. 

 

I hope we get less in the way of wide open arenas as battle sites.  They contribute to making every fight feel similar.

[DaySeeker]

I play Bioware games for story, the characters and the world.  Dark Souls is exactly what I don't want to play.  I found the combat punishing, the world bland, and any text esoteric at best, nonsensical at worst.  If the team is going to spend their time on something I would rather it be making the game interesting not making the game challenging.

[Realmzmaster]

You know, there is a difference between "borrow this one combat feature from Dark Souls" (have weapon use be constrained by environment) and "copy their combat as much as possible". I could have responded to this message if the first thing was what the OP/title SAID ..., but the latter was in fact what they asked for. Thus was how I responded to it.

 

BTW, I get why you would need to switch weapons in narrow corridors, but how often in DA are you fighting in such constrained environments. 

 

Rarely does a warrior change weapons unless it is to a ranged weapon. The warrior is usually proficient in the main weapon in all environments. Rarely does a warrior carry more than one main weapon and a ranged weapon. A backup smaller weapon may be carried in case the warrior is disarmed of the main weapon.

[Tajerio]

The main problem with using Dark Souls style combat in DA:I is that, as many people have said, it's a party-based game.  My companions don't have any player skill to employ when I'm not playing them, and Dark Souls style combat is not friendly to frantic pause-and-switch between four party members.

 

Could some things, like extensive weapon differentiation, work well in DA:I?  Absolutely.  But the combat system for DS belongs in DS.

[slimgrin]

DS is an action RPG and DA is not. Apples and oranges.

[Uccio]

For the love of Maker, please don´t copy it!

[Tremere]

What Dragon Age needs is finishing moves... Like these...

 

Would give "Cross Class Combos" a whole new meaning!

[iggy4566]

Dark souls in a very different beast and its gameplay  and does not fit DA , but I love how people here hate it and call it grinder oh lordie  not a big surprise that  this group hates it. 

[Tremere]

I play Bioware games for story, the characters and the world.  Dark Souls is exactly what I don't want to play.  I found the combat punishing, the world bland, and any text esoteric at best, nonsensical at worst.  If the team is going to spend their time on something I would rather it be making the game interesting not making the game challenging.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[JCFR]

Because dark souls 1 melee was amazing. Having each weapon defined by their reach, speed and move set is a million times more interesting than having a whole bunch of weapons +stat, -stat. To give you an example, in dark souls combat it is usually a really bad idea for a character to be swinging a great sword around in close quarter areas like narrow ledges and stairways, because the sword would just keep on staggering the weilder and tire them out with each swing of the sword swinging into the wall. In that type of envirnoment, the character would do a whole lot better by weilding some sort of thrusting weapon like a spear, or a rapeir which is shorter than a spear but lighter and faster.

 

Dragon Age isn't supposed to be a hard core realistic combat simulator, I get that, but regardless of realism I think that DA should look at how dark souls did weapons because they were really well done.

You may or may nnot know but, not everyone enjoyed that kind of game.

I mean, i bought it on budget and deinstalled it right after losing seven times in a row to the second boss. If i want to torture myself, i take a whip. And asking something like that for a BIOWARE PARTY-RPG-GAME is just beyond my ability to comprehend. To me, it's like asking some MMO-developers to add an offline-mode... defeats the purpose.

Just go and play for once Baldur's gate 2 and then you might get, what i whish  Inquisition to be like.

 

It's not my intention to defame dark souls or your love for this series, but please don't go around everywhere and ask other RPGs to be like that. 

[General TSAR]

I love Dark Souls to death but......

 

Though we could use more collision detection.

[Spectre slayer]

No, as much as I like dark souls that typee of combat wouldn't work in a dragon age game for numerous reasons that a lot of people mentioned.

If anything the combat in DAI will be like a mix of Dragons Dogma and DAO but with a lot of different additional elements and a completely new enemy AI system that is sophisticated and will use and change their tactics based on numerous factors like your location, your companions location, your party's health, your party's cooldown time, the environment, etc.

They will be working in conjunction with each other for example the Venatori faction would be the best to explain right now considering we seen a number of their forces.

Say you're fighting them and see a drudge and a prowler ( the one with the big shield) with archers behind him and around the area at higher elevations attacking you, while the enchanter is buffing them, debuffing and attacking you, while a.couple of bruisers are advancing on you with a giant axe ( they're the enemies from the recent trailer with the pointed helmet, giant axe, and tevinter symbol on their armor) while a prowler ( extremely agile, very fast, kinda looks like a shriek on steroids mixed with a rogue mixed with a dancer when fighting) is moving very quickly and doing hit and run tactics and likes to use it's agility and stealth to get behind you and backstab you.

Another layer to this is that your enemies can use things in the environment aswell and attack you with them, not to mention here should be a larger enemy variety this time around and use all of those thing's to attack you.

Another reason why it's closer to dragon's dogma is that when we're fighting larger enemies like dragons and giants, other thing's we haven't seen yet is that we can target different parts of their bodies and different classes can do a few different thing's like warriors can break enemy armor down, rogues can poison and wound enemies. We can also jump now which means we can use the higher elevations to attack them, and some other thing's.

Reasons why it's like DAO the tactical camera is back, you can stealth out of combat again and spilt and or leave your party to a certain degree, as someone mentioned traps are back, we have complete control over our our party unlike dragons dogma and can use tons of different strategies and tactics, we can order them to move to different locations, que up abilities or potions, can switch over to all auto attacks and use that and the tactical camera to play just like you did in DAO. With a bunch of additional elements, we can break or restore parts of the environment, use a cover system, create walls of ice, use certain thing's in the environment, we have unique class abilities for combat and evasion, I think we may be able to use our shield, amoung numerous other things.

Combat is much improved from the previous games and much different than dark souls.

[In Exile]

I hope we get less in the way of wide open arenas as battle sites.  They contribute to making every fight feel similar.

 

They do, but the difficulty is that corridor fights are far easier for the player, since they negate number advantages for the enemies. 

[Bond]

Lock his topic. I dont like OP suggestion one bit.