8 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

I love games with pacifist options, whether it's avoiding combat via conversation or via stealth.  Given past DA games, I am particularly interested in how DA:I will handle stealth.  While DA2 gave one the option to have an four-rogue party (Rogue!Hawke, Varric, Isabela, and Sebastian), the fact that stealth was an activated ability rather than a mode made it difficult (honestly, next to impossible) to have your whole party stealth along.  Even having one rogue handle something stealthily while getting the rest of the party to hide further back around a corner didn't usually work, in my experience.  Now, we've learned that some DA:I quests can be completed in ways other than "kill all the things!!1!"  I am curious as to how this might be achieved.  Is the option only open to rogues, or do all classes have non-lethal abilities?  If stealth plays a large part in it, will stealth be less painful than in DA2?  If non-lethal options apart from stealth are present, are they restricted to conversation options, or are they talents that non-rogues can spec into?  Possibly a combination of both, as persuasion was in DA:O?

 

If there is already a discussion of this topic, then apologies for the duplication and please point me towards it.  Thanks.

[CybAnt1]

There has been discussion on this topic, mostly raised in Feedback & Suggestions.

 

The big reason why games like DA are combat-heavy, without alternatives, is because killing is usually the main source of XP, which everyone needs to level their characters. 

 

There is no way to innovate out of that problem until games start awarding XP for non-combat activities. 

[Endurium]

I could see it working if XP was removed from killing things and we leveled up entirely by completing quests. That would open the door to various ways to complete the quests, lethal and non. As it stands now, most RPGs are designed with leveling being based on XP from both kills and quests, so that if we do stealth past a bunch of enemies, we stand to possibly gimp our character by missing out on XP and subsequent level-ups.

 

I've tried numerous times to play a sneaky character through DAO, but auto-start conversations, scripts and traps I can't disarm always manage to get in the way.

 

To date the only non-Adventure game I have that allows a fully non-lethal run is Dishonored. All the RPGs in my library are essentially combat simulators of one degree or another that have me killing most things for the sake of quests and leveling.

[L. Han]

The idea of giving players multiple ways to achieve goals is really great on paper, but often fails in practice.

 

Yes, this may be due to poor execution or implementation. But what I think it really boils down to is the philosophy behind the different gameplay styles. 

 

If the players are provided with a small company of Thedas' best warriors/skirmisher/mage (just like all Dragon Age games) players will more often than not prefer to charge in head first and kill everyone who appears to have a health bar and a red name, which is obviously the opposite to stealth.

 

Stealth relies a lot on planning, memorizing the opponents' patterns, and most importantly, patience. The only patient thing in our current format is waiting for skills to recharge or regenerating the mana/stamina pool (not to mention you can cut down this with potions).

 

Avoiding conflicts through dialog presents another issue: it could get tedious if the requirement to persuade people is just to level up a stat (Fallout, Mass Effect are guilty of this) or to collect enough points via a binary personality check. This easily becomes too 'gamey' and really just annoy players into smashing through encounters rather than talking.

 

In short: You can't offer stealth or pacifist game styles when an easier option is always present. Unless of course, BioWare designs encounters very well that varies up the circumstances (being outnumbered, etc) or give enough incentive to the players.

[CybAnt1]

I didn't play it, but I note Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines is often heralded as a system like that; so is Deus Ex, although Deus is not strictly speaking an RPG. 

 

Dialogue and stealth are two approaches to avoiding encounters. There also should be options for trickery. For example, since it seems monsters in DAI may be hostile to each other, tricking another creature into clearing out the other monsters in a room ... 

 

There's lots of room for creative thinking here. It's weird that people say people like me don't want innovation, where here is a place where I desperately crave it. 

[Estelindis]

There has been discussion on this topic, mostly raised in Feedback & Suggestions.

 

Thanks!  I'll have a look there.    I personally didn't think to try that, because I assume that whatever approach is being taken as been decided a long time ago, and thus feedback and suggestions would mostly apply to DA4... at which stage they'll probably want feedback to incorporate DA:I as well.

 

The way I see it, a gateway conversation to any quest that has the option to decide things lethally or peacefully could allow one to choose one option or the other, whereafter xp could be allocated mostly to combat or mostly to overall mission success, depending on what you originally chose.  Just as xp would be particularly high for very tough combat foes, in the non-lethal route bonuses could be given for not killing those who might be particularly useful to the Inquisition later, if not killed.

[Estelindis]

 

In short: You can't offer stealth or pacifist game styles when an easier option is always present. Unless of course, BioWare designs encounters very well that varies up the circumstances (being outnumbered, etc) or give enough incentive to the players.

 I disagree with you there.  I relish the challenge of pacifist playthroughs being tougher than a kill-all approach.  I know that I'm not alone in this.  I maintain that you absolutely can offer a stealth/pacifist approach, especially when it is harder than other options.  I almost feel that it needs to be harder, so that you can earn whatever extra benefits the pacifist approach might give you, e.g. particular NPCs being alive who would otherwise die.

[L. Han]

 I disagree with you there.  I relish the challenge of pacifist playthroughs being tougher than a kill-all approach.  I know that I'm not alone in this.  I maintain that you absolutely can offer a stealth/pacifist approach, especially when it is harder than other options.  I almost feel that it needs to be harder, so that you can earn whatever extra benefits the pacifist approach might give you, e.g. particular NPCs being alive who would otherwise die.

 

Yes, but that does not go against my argument. What I argued is that; if there is a lack of incentive, there is no reason to do stealth. I understand that you were trying to argue for stealth being viable, but what I merely am suggesting is that they should make sure they lay out the ground work properly before adding alternative paths/styles.

[Rawgrim]

I`d like it if they introduced a garotte attack, for stealth kills. Success based on strength, or something.