546 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

For me, it was the "No City Elf Backstory for Elven Inquisitors". 

 

It stings every time I see that. 

[NoForgiveness]

I like it. Though I seriously hope its 6 options(2/2/2) and not 4(2/2/0)

[stuffystuffs]

 

I know that there are wording issues, as detailed in the previous thread, that are particularly sore spots for some LGBTQ people.  For example, some feel that Cameron's statement comes across as suggesting that bisexuality isn't a set sexuality (and the problematic aspects that comes with that).  I feel I can understand those concerns.  But in terms of feeling betrayed, is it beyond just the messaging?  For example, if you feel that Dragon Age 2 is excellent because there are bisexual persons that you can romance, is there a concern that with this direction there will be less bisexual representation?  And since you had 4 in the previous game, having less than 4 bisexual love interests would represent a loss?  (This is a valid perception, by the way, if it's the way you feel).

 

My problems are:

 

1)  Why is gender the only limiting factor when trying to make 'realistic' romances?  There could be many other things used (or multiple ones).  It seems like, of all the criteria people consider when choosing a partner, gender is the one we should make the biggest issue out of (or the only one).

 

2)  When gender limits have been imposed in the past, the options for those wanting to do a same-sex romance are the ones that get limited the most.  DA:O is an example.  In ME3, there were many limits to same-sex romance but our exclusive romances were with non-party members (and not as in depth).  Traynor lacked an extra scene that others had, for example.  Is it a big deal that Male Shep can't hook up with Traynor considering he gets all the female romances people tend to consider as better?  Basically, it seems as if we have to give up more (either quality, quantity, or both) for the sake of having gender limits than those that do opposite-sex romance.  I think this concerns a lot of people here at least.

[David Gaider]

The perception is that Bioware is backing away from supporting queer gamers.

 

Categorically not true.

 

I understand there are some people who prefer the idea of being able to romance any character who is able to be romanced, with any PC. That may have been a happy by-product of the system in DA2, for them, but that was not its purpose. Its purpose was to allow more than one option for every type of player, no matter who they were. That remains our goal.

 

As Mark Darrah tweeted earlier today, we have characters that are gay as well as bisexual and straight. I'm not going to discuss numbers or any further details at this point, so you can make of that what you will, but that allows us to tell more types of character stories without having to resort to ambiguity. Those stories exist for players who don't romance the characters as well, and that's also important. The rest will come as we discuss this aspect of the game in detail, but I'd hope the Dragon Age's team's expressed interest in inclusivity would provide us some benefit of the doubt until that happens.

[ahellbornlady]

The Maker has spoken.

[HiroVoid]

Those stories exist for players who don't romance the characters as well, and that's also important.

Not exactly the point of the topic, but this in particular's always been the more important part to me where you can still get discussion with the character or miss important part because you're not romancing them like in ME2.  It also allowed for some interesting dialogue to me from DA:O where Morrigan basically mentions she didn't think it was possible for a male and female to be close friends if I remember right.  Also the time she goes something along the lines of 'You like Leliana? ......well, okay then.'

[In Exile]

Those stories exist for players who don't romance the characters as well, and that's also important. 

Does that mean that the character's sexuality will feature in the friendship path for the characters? 

[Phate Phoenix]

As Mark Darrah tweeted earlier today, we have characters that are gay as well as bisexual and straight. I'm not going to discuss numbers or any further details at this point, so you can make of that what you will, but that allows us to tell more types of character stories without having to resort to ambiguity. Those stories exist for players who don't romance the characters as well, and that's also important. 

 

I never thought of it like that before. That's cool.

[Veriond]

RE: Allan

 

Part of it is messaging issues that have already been brought up. Part of it is lack of clear information, which with further details will likely either lay to rest or confirm quite a few of worries. I would say in general what I have seen of the queer community is that yes we are very supportive of what queer content has been given. That said, and not to take away for my love of the queer characters we have, there has been a trend to them either being sidelined with straight LI's being plot essentual or fitting in with some hurtful stereotypes. The all bi LIs of DA2 by their nature of all being bi avoided that. Part of the worry is that the return of straight LI's to Dragon Age means that the queer content will be shuffled off to the metaphoical corner where it can be safely ignored by the "dudebro" gamers who so loudly objected to DA2's LIs all being bi as "unrealistic".

 

That is the place where the betrayal feelings are coming from. A perception that, rather that increasing queer inclusivity Bioware is caving to complaints that DA2 was too queer. Now I personally am hopeful that that is not, in fact, the rational behind this LI decision. But the general vagueness about LI sexuallity, number, and follower vs non follower status is definitely causing a great deal of worry among many queer gamers.

[David Gaider]

Why is gender the only limiting factor when trying to make 'realistic' romances?

 

Who says it's the only limiting factor? We've not said how the romances will work at all, so that's quite the assumption.

 

I understand the concern about possibly ending up with the "short end of the stick", but I'm not sure where the DA team has yet given the impression that will be so. I'm not going to tell you that your concerns don't have validity—I'm actually quite familiar with how it feels to have my interests treated as a secondary concern when it comes to popular entertainment—but I'm hoping that concern need not equate with panic at this point. We've got a lot of time yet to discuss this.

 

Personally, I'd rather the conversation didn't start with a discussion of what is "realistic". That's not a bar the DA team uses to judge any of our content—not in a fantasy game. There's an argument that can be made about internal plausibility within the setting, but the realism that Cam was trying to talk about in that interview was with regards to character depictions and the variety of viewpoints that can be touched on depending on the approach. I hope that's clear. If not, it's something we'll certainly be discussing more in the months to come.

[In Exile]

 

That is the place where the betrayal feelings are coming from. A perception that, rather that increasing queer inclusivity Bioware is caving to complaints that DA2 was too queer. Now I personally am hopeful that that is not, in fact, the rational behind this LI decision. But the general vagueness about LI sexuallity, number, and follower vs non follower status is definitely causing a great deal of worry among many queer gamers.

 

Doesn't that depend on how prominent character's sexuality is in the story itself? To take the Masked Empire example, Celene is (to me) quite clearly a lesbian (as opposed to bi) protagonist. Her S/S relationship is an important part of her character. If something like that featured in DA:I, to me that would increase visibility because the content would no longer be limited to just player-initiated romances. 

[jellobell]

I feel that the problem with a 2/2/2 format is the fear that the most popular companions or NPC's will be straight.  if Cassandra and Cullen end up being straight it will be very disappointing for many gays. 

 

I doubt Cullen will be a "main" romance, given that he's most likely not a companion.

 

And I'd be fine with 2/2/2 as long as all of the romances are companions. Having to choose between a companion romance and an NPC romance isn't an equal choice.

[daveliam]

Well, I have to say that even just a few comforting words from the devs (thank you Allan and David) do a little something to ease my concerns.  It's hard not to get worked up after reading an unfortunately worded interview about this somewhat sensitive aspect of the game.  I'm happy to place my trust in the devs that they will continue to offer all players equitable options when it comes to the romances.  Having been marginalized in the past, it's still a sore subject, so sometimes we might jump the gun with our concerns.  I'm glad to hear that there will be discussion about romances upcoming.  That's something to look forward to.

[AddieTheElf]

Though I can't speak for all, only myself. I don't really take it as Bioware backing away from supporting us (gay gamers). I understand that the adding different sexualities is actually to add representations for those sexualities - yes this could also be done using those outside of the LI (that was my preferred way). So that we know for sure we're getting the same exact content and typically quality as straight gamers.

 

Technically we do get the same amount of options as they do, as them us, we just have to be willing to go outside of our preferred types of romances - like I did for Alistair (but that was mostly because I just couldn't resist at the time though I was determined to romance Leliana... but ahh Alistair was a sweetie, my lady elf couldn't resist). I think most of us are upset because it seems like we're getting less and a lot are expecting to be shafted - because we just don't know as of now what content we're getting and a lot of us had different types of who we wanted to romances - from those wanting Cullen to those who wanted Solas or DHMG and someone's gonna miss out on one based on preference unless they switch up genders and not everyone wants to do that.

 

I myself am starting to warm up to the idea, I'll miss the old DA2 style but I've never had an issue playing as a male or the occasional straight romance.

 

I hope we can at least get to flirt with companions even if we get turned out - my male warden never even had the chance to let Alistair know his feelings to have that closure. I don't mind companions turning me down.

[Maria Caliban]

1)  Why is gender the only limiting factor when trying to make 'realistic' romances?  There could be many other things used (or multiple ones).  It seems like, of all the criteria people consider when choosing a partner, gender is the one we should make the biggest issue out of (or the only one).

I'll point out here that gender being the only factor or the biggest factor is a fan assumption.

There may be bisexual teammates who won't date qunari. Cassandra may only be interested in men who support the Chantry and Templars. Sera might prefer women and is only willing to date a man who's an elf as elves need to reproduce.

Edit: And David already said this. Quickly moving thread here.

[Deviija]

Bleh.  I really don't care for this.  Though it is the "realistic" bit that rubbed me the wrong way the most.  Right, in a world where dragons roam, demons rain from the sky, and people hurl fireballs from their fingertips.  Not to mention it's not earth and does not need to follow any arbitrary means of orientation distribution we have here.  

 

Edited to Add:  Goodness, so many posts happening while I was typing this.  

[Veriond]

Doesn't that depend on how prominent character's sexuality is in the story itself? To take the Masked Empire example, Celene is (to me) quite clearly a lesbian (as opposed to bi) protagonist. Her S/S relationship is an important part of her character. If something like that featured in DA:I, to me that would increase visibility because the content would no longer be limited to just player-initiated romances. 

I generally agree and am cautiously optimistic that DAI will have greater queer inclusivity. I'm largely trying to offer perspecive on why so many queer gamers reacted to this announcement with worry/hurt. For many queer gamers there isn't a lot of trust that any developer "has our back" so to speak and that results in a lot of quick defensive reactions. There is also a little bit of hope that if the worst had been true then there was still time in the developement cycle for changes to be made after righteous anger was expressed.

[Maria Caliban]

I feel that the problem with a 2/2/2 format is the fear that the most popular companions or NPC's will be straight.  if Cassandra and Cullen end up being straight it will be very disappointing for many gays.

Well yeah. The fear is not that a companion will be straight, it's that a companion I really want to romance will be straight.

It just sounds so much better when I phrase that in terms of inclusivity and equal access.

[Cyonan]

Bleh.  I really don't care for this.  Though it is the "realistic" bit that rubbed me the wrong way the most.  Right, in a world where dragons roam, demons rain from the sky, and people hurl fireballs from their fingertips.  Not to mention it's not earth and does not need to follow any arbitrary means of orientation distribution we have here.  

 

I can only hope it is not back to the way of Origins with 2 het/2 bi, leaving no choices for non-hetero folks.  

 

non-hetero people still have the bi companions as romance options, but either way Gaider already said in this thread there are some of each type of sexual orientation.

 

Also, "realism" is not exactly the correct word for it. Immersion would probably be a better one to use.

[daveliam]

non-hetero people still have the bi companions as romance options,

 

Gay and lesbian characters in DA: O didn't have a choice in their romance option.  Zevran was the only option for gay males and Leliana was the only option for lesbians.  It's not that there wasn't any option; it was that there was no choice in options where straight and bisexual characters had multiple choices.

[Ryzaki]

Well yeah. The fear is not that a companion will be straight, it's that a companion I really want to romance will be straight.

It just sounds so much better when I phrase that in terms of inclusivity and equal access.

 

Yep.

 

As it is one of my m/f options is taken up by Cullen :X

[devSin]

I understand the concern about possibly ending up with the "short end of the stick", but I'm not sure where the DA team has yet given the impression that will be so. I'm not going to tell you that your concerns don't have validity—I'm actually quite familiar with how it feels to have my interests treated as a secondary concern when it comes to popular entertainment—but I'm hoping that concern need not equate with panic at this point. We've got a lot of time yet to discuss this.

I think your messaging could use improvement. Not your fault, but these things didn't have to come out this way. (And the team is not so perfect in the things they say that you get some blanket "benefit of the doubt", especially for those who don't distinguish between your team and the others within your company, or those who only have your history to judge by.)

I can only speak for myself, but reading Cameron's statement was disheartening, so I was already on defense when digesting the news. It's not a leap to jump from feeling insulted to being fearful about what is being suggested (and it's only because of your words in the past—and the fact that Mike's a spectacular guy—that I'm not actually concerned). It may not be logical, but I think it's understandable.

Hopefully you can establish equity, and then in the future you won't even have to reveal companions' romance status and availability (though I still think you should be revealing eligibility at the same time you confirm a character can be romanced, but I'd rather this be an interim situation). But we're clearly not at that point yet.

In any event, I'm quite looking forward to experiencing what you have planned for us in Inquisition.
 

I feel that the problem with a 2/2/2 format is the fear that the most popular companions or NPC's will be straight.  if Cassandra and Cullen end up being straight it will be very disappointing for many gays.

But if some of them are gay, won't there also be disappointed straight people?

I've always favored bisexuality as an approach, but if there's equal access to choice (of equivalent content), I think this sort of disappointment is just going to be a normal thing. The possibility exists for all of us that the one character we want to romance is the one who's not going to be available to the character we most want to play.

[In Exile]

I generally agree and am cautiously optimistic that DAI will have greater queer inclusivity. I'm largely trying to offer perspecive on why so many queer gamers reacted to this announcement with worry/hurt. For many queer gamers there isn't a lot of trust that any developer "has our back" so to speak and that results in a lot of quick defensive reactions. There is also a little bit of hope that if the worst had been true then there was still time in the developement cycle for changes to be made after righteous anger was expressed.

 

It's not my intent to suggest that fixed sexuality is somehow better; I was genuinely curious if you saw featuring queer NPCs more prominently to be a substitute for providing options for a queer protagonist. I personally have mixed feelings, because while it's nice to have more representation in NPCs that players can't hide from and pretend isn't there, I do think that isn't equivalent to creating exclusions in content based on IRL identity. 

[Giggles_Manically]

You know I am going to wait for more information before I start pulling my hair out in anger and pulling "RUINED FOREVER" lever.

 

That being said I think moving from all-bi to Straight/Gay/Bi is a good idea. Makes characters more like characters and less like just fulfillment for players who want them or something.

Not that I really know TBQH since I view all social interaction as icky.