435 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

1.) Kill me now.

Whenever someone says this, I think this:

Spoiler

[GithCheater]

Because having the Legitimate leader of Orlais, the most powerful nation in thedas, the head of the Chantry, the head of the Mage Circles (Grand Enchanter Fiona), the possible leader of Ferelden,the likely leader of the Elven Uprising and two of the people most responsible for the Inquisition's existence all being female doesn't count for anything? Not to mention the Inquisitor can be female and in-universe this would be less than a non-issue for just about everyone, same with the Warden, same with Hawke. I'm a little upset at having so few female companions but I find the argument that it means that Bioware is not being Progressive as it claims rather silly when so many important people in the game are going to be Women

 

All this hyperbole about Bioware because one companion is the "wrong" gender ...

[Volus Warlord]

1.  Hyperbole, much?

 

2.  No, I'm making it sound like Bioware isn't living up to its own oft-stated standards.  Because it isn't.  You say it's a coincidence, I'm saying it didn't have to be.  There were ways that the coincidence could actually have been mitigated against, and Bioware chose not to use them.  And now they are using the same old tired explanations for the results. 

 

3.  You want to lump me (and the rest of us who are disappointed with Bioware in this matter) in with them, that's your problem.  It shows a lack of intellectual rigour on your part, but if all you want to do is dismiss the issue because it doesn't matter to you personally, have at it. 

 

4.  A lot of men don't. I disagree.  It's only by calling this stuff out that there's even a hope that things will be better in the future. 

1.) No, it was an actual demand. Get to it. Now. 

 

2.) They are going for their standards, but you take issue to the extent. They are better than damn near everyone else in this type of regard. If they were ignoring women there would be 0-1 female companions. 

 

3.) I'm not lumping any one into anything. I'm saying I'm more prone to disregard demands that sound like juvenile wish fulfillment requests for any sort of serious consideration.

 

4.) Keep up hope, i guess..? 

[tara]

Intended or not, that is how your posts come across. Women constantly get told that they're overreacting to things that hurt them, ESPECIALLY if these women show any emotion whatsoever while voicing their thoughts. So when you come into the thread saying "well golly gosh darn I just don't see the point here! I don't see a problem at all!", its pretty insulting.

[Mes]

 

In short though, I feel these are two separate issues, and that's where I respectfully disagree with Gaider. The game would benefit from both. I don't want to downplay the disappointment in the assumed split, I just think it and a representation of important, strong female NPCs are separate issues and shouldn't be weighed together, which I assume you agree with, as well. 

 

Good point.

 

We shouldn't have to trade female companions for female NPCs. It's like "Sorry but you can have one or the other. Not both." 

[Jaison1986]

All this hyperbole about Bioware because one companion is the "wrong" gender ...

 

I know right? Can't we just enjoy a game for once? And not drag all our intricate RL social issues into it? The game certanly won't do everything my way and that doesn't upset me. 

[Deflagratio]

I still think the judgement based on a ratio not dramatically skewed is a little arbitrary.

 

If you consider all integral rolls, I think the ratio is actually 7/5 M/F right? Counting Cullen, Scribbles and Leliana.

[kukumburr]

A lot of the remarks that dismiss the 6:3 male:female ratio as irrelevant remind me of the inevitable comments on news articles about the low number of women in high-ranking and leadership positions in businesses and that the set quota of 60/40 (or whatever the specific goal is for that country) is still far from being reached: "ugh, still with that forced ratio? Why not simply take the best person for the job?". Well, hello, of course that would be the ideal! No gender, sexuality or skin color to be taken into consideration. Just the most qualified, most suitable individual to fill that role. But when the vast majority of functions (in this case, the function of companion) is still filled by men, it should be clear it is currently still not a matter of simply getting  the best person for the part, or one should assume that there just are very few women suitable for the positions in which they are being underrepresented. When the majority is always male by default, it is more likely bias is playing a part. Probably mostly unconscious and unintentional, but that doesn't mean it should not be addressed.

 

Of course we all want the most interesting and entertaining companions, but again, why would the majority of those interesting companions be male by default? Others have already remarked that various roles could probably work with a female just as well. Why would something as gender mean the noose for artistic integrity and creativity? 

 

Bioware has shown to be aware of issues in representation. Employees have talked about gender (or sexuality) representation on several conventions. They argued that things could be done differently, that the standard of the industry did not have to remain the same. But when it's up to Bioware to show their next project, they revert back to the default male protagonist in their trailer and a team largely consisting of men. So they are aware of the issue and claim they are willing to contribute to change, and when they have the chance to, they do quite the opposite. I have a hard time believing this is still unintentional, and I think that is what annoys me the most. Stick with guys as the standard if you must, but don't go about announcing all those brave, idealistic intentions. Practice what you preach.

 

To me the difference is scale. If I go to a store and there are 3 female employees and 6 male employees I don't immediately assume there's a problem. If I look at 1000 similar stores and the imbalance still exists that's when I think there is an underlying problem, whether it's direct discrimination or gender stereotypes. This is why I think looking at Thedas at large for representation is better than just looking at companions. I know companions are the most important characters to people but I don't think it's fair to only look at them as far as representation is concerned. If you took companions out of the game entirely there would still be plenty of strong female characters and as a female player I wouldn't feel that my gender was being marginalized. That's more important to me than looking at one group of characters in the game for representation, even if they're the characters that you interact with most. It's more an overall sense of placement in the world rather than within one small group of people.

 

That's not to say I'm against having more female companions and I don't know why they made certain characters male and certain ones female. Maybe there is some sort of unintentional bias, I don't know. I just don't think it's fair to imply they're being discriminatory. I do agree though that there should be more female inquisitor in marketing, but I don't think the people who wrote the characters are really involved in marketing decisions (I could be wrong).

[Volus Warlord]

Yeah you and half the forum when women express concerns about representation.

 

Funny, huh.

 

And what should I make of that exactly?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Jeez, really, one less female companion than usual and suddendly Bioware fails at it's ''progressive agenda'' (let's ignore we're talking about a video game studio for a second)? Isin't gender equality a bigger issue than ratios alone, and ratios taken in a vacuum no less?

 

As Gaider said, it seems that a good portion (if not an outright majority) of the universe's leadership are women in the first place. Flemeth, Morrigan, Leliana, Justinia (or her replacement), Celene, Fiora; these 6 are powerful women, with Flemeth being possibly the most powerful being on Thedas itself, and that's without including companions or potentially important supporting cast like the scribe girl. And that's as far as we know, they could also have Anora or a female Qunari leader or a female Elf leader or whatnot. So it's not like Bioware is sending the message that women should stay in the kitchen or else because 1 companion could stand to be a women, for pete's sake.

 

Look, I don't want to come across as not finding issues of representation important or anything, but I feel people here are really pushing it. Like, enough to make people throw their hands up in the air and think ''there's just no pleasing these people unless you cater to their exact, specific whims''.

[Divine Justinia V]

 

 

What does that have to do with the actual fact of not having a balanced amount of women in the party? Oh, that's right, nothing!

[azarhal]

I was just posting statistics. Though Origins has the same as ME2 if you count Alistair and Loghain as 2 different people.

 

You can't have both in the party at the same time, so while both are male, they do not change the available party ratio. People's issue is with the available party members gender distribution, the people you actually spend most of the game with, now how many female is in the game as a whole.

 

For example, if I want to make a full female party in DAI, I will have to pick Cassandra, Vivienne and ArcherGirl with no possibilities of switching one out if I do not like the character. While if I play a full male party, I get 3 spares.

 

It's a question a choice, not so different than the romance one might I add. It's also something that is perceived negatively by 47% of the gaming population...

[Tayah]

I still think the judgement based on a ratio not dramatically skewed is a little arbitrary.

 

If you consider all integral rolls, I think the ratio is actually 7/5 M/F right? Counting Cullen, Scribbles and Leliana.

And if the companions had been 5:4 male to female the ratio would be 6:6 from the twelve though and that would be really nice. All I and many others are saying is what's wrong with that? 

[Divine Justinia V]

I was just posting statistics. Though Origins has the same as ME2 if you count Alistair and Loghain as 2 different people.

 

I don't and I don't think anyone does.

[TheCreeper]

I get being upset over having only three female companions, heck I am too, but I hardly think it's a sign of sexism on Bioware's part. Heck look at it from this prespective, at the end of the  gameplay trailer there are twelve people. 9 companions three Advisors, of that combined group 5 of the twelve are female. One away from a Solid half, all of those people are equally important to the Inqusition, heck Leliana helps  found it probably.

[tara]

I know right? Can't we just enjoy a game for once? And not drag all our intricate RL social issues into it? The game certanly won't do everything my way and that doesn't upset me. 

Video games are not formed in a vacuum. It both is created through the perceptions and opinions of those who make it and helps shape the perceptions and opinions of those who play. Do you really think that someone who's never come across homophobic/sexist/ableist behavior and opinions in their life would somehow be homophobic/sexist/ableist? I highly doubt it.

 

If you want equality in real life, you need to start somewhere and media is a great place to start.

[cartographer]

Good point.

 

We shouldn't have to trade female companions for female NPCs. It's like "Sorry but you can have one or the other. Not both." 

Says it much better than I did. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Jeez, really, one less female companion than usual and suddendly Bioware fails at it's ''progressive agenda'' (let's ignore we're talking about a video game studio for a second)? Isin't gender equality a bigger issue than ratios alone, and ratios taken in a vacuum no less?

 

As Gaider said, it seems that a good portion (if not an outright majority) of the universe's leadership are women in the first place. Flemeth, Morrigan, Leliana, Justinia (or her replacement), Celene, Fiora; these 6 are powerful women, with Flemeth being possibly the most powerful being on Thedas itself, and that's without including companions or potentially important supporting cast like the scribe girl. And that's as far as we know, they could also have Anora or a female Qunari leader or a female Elf leader or whatnot. So it's not like Bioware is sending the message that women should stay in the kitchen or else because 1 companion could stand to be a women, for pete's sake.

 

Look, I don't want to come across as not finding issues of representation important or anything, but I feel people here are really pushing it. Like, enough to make people throw their hands up in the air and think ''there's just no pleasing these people unless you cater to their exact, specific whims''.

There is. The Arigena is always female. Also, the Ariqun could also be female since either gender can hold that spot. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't and I don't think anyone does.

I do.

[Grieving Natashina]

Because having the Legitimate leader of Orlais, the most powerful nation in thedas, the head of the Chantry, the head of the Mage Circles (Grand Enchanter Fiona), the possible leader of Ferelden,the likely leader of the Elven Uprising and two of the people most responsible for the Inquisition's existence all being female doesn't count for anything? Not to mention the Inquisitor can be female and in-universe this would be less than a non-issue for just about everyone, same with the Warden, same with Hawke. I'm a little upset at having so few female companions but I find the argument that it means that Bioware is not being Progressive as it claims rather silly when so many important people in the game are going to be Women

Quick impression for you regarding those didn't read the EU.  I have read most of it, but just think about this looks like to someone that doesn't soak up every little bit of Thedas.  For someone that has only played the games and has not read any of the optional material, it sounds like this:

 

1) Who?  Is that the Empress I've heard about a few times?

2) The Divine, or something like that. Don't know her name

3) Who?

4) If they choose that route.  Then yes, the average person buying the game outside of the forums would know about that.

5) What elven uprising?  Where is that?  The games never said anything about that,

6) Hey look it's Morrigan and Leliana!  Wait, they aren't going to be in my party, but it looks like they are important to the plot.  Someone I remember!  

 

Who said those NPCs didn't count for anything?  I didn't.  Most everyone that is talking about this didn't.  It does count.  That isn't the issue.  In case you've overlooked it, we do think BioWare is being progressive.  We do think they include groups that are normally overlooked or put down upon.  However, one of the statements BioWare has made repeatedly is that they feel that they always are looking to do better.  To be better and they've said that constructive fan feedback is something they value.  I've made it very clear, as have others, that we don't hate BioWare.  We are feeling a little let down and disappointed.  I'm sure I'll meet all these female NPCs in my travels.  Some will affect my story much more than others, I'm sure.  That doesn't replace having a companion to talk to, to befriend, to journey to the end of the game with.  Without going back to some Keep or camp.

 

Oh and also, it was stated that most of the leaders of the various factions die during the initial forming of the Breech.  So right there, that's a good chance that at least one if not more of these "important NPCs" will be dead before the game even fully starts.

 

And before someone goes 7/5 is equal, no, that's close to equal.  Equal would be an even 6:6 split, which most of us aren't asking for.  We know better, we just don't know why after months of "inclusion" talk they decided that having a ton of female NPCs that aren't our traveling companions was good enough.  I respect David's answer, but that doesn't change my puzzlement.   

[Cainhurst Crow]

And if the companions had been 5:4 male to female the ratio would be 6:6 from the twelve though and that would be really nice. All I and many others are saying is what's wrong with that? 

 

Not a dang things wrong with that, or wanting that, or having it go further.

 

Its how people react to not getting that/how people react to the peoples reactions not getting it where all these problems crop up.

 

For some people this rained on their parade, for others, they're tired of others raining on their parade at what they feel is another piece of good news.

 

And then we go back and forth forever.

[Divine Justinia V]

I do.

 

I don't understand that logic at all in terms of companion count, but I won't get into that here.

[thats1evildude]

I know right? Can't we just enjoy a game for once? And not drag all our intricate RL social issues into it? The game certanly won't do everything my way and that doesn't upset me. 

 

Well, female representation in video games IS an issue, both in terms of their portrayal and their numbers. The gaming community trying to sweep these issues under the rug is also a huge issue.

 

That said, I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. All we know is that there's a 6:3 split within the main party. We don't even know, without question, the names of half our party members.

 

What does this 6:3 split tell us about the depiction of the female characters within the game? What does that tell us about the number of prominent female NPCs within the game? If half of those six male party members are the biggest jerks on the face of Thedas, would it make things significantly better if one of those jerks was a woman instead of a man?

 

To quote the great MovieBob: NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE BROKEN DOWN INTO EQUATIONS.

[cartographer]

I get being upset over having only three female companions, heck I am too, but I hardly think it's a sign of sexism on Bioware's part. Heck look at it from this prespective, at the end of the  gameplay trailer there are twelve people. 9 companions three Advisors, of that combined group 5 of the twelve are female. One away from a Solid half, all of those people are equally important to the Inqusition, heck Leliana helps  found it probably.

I think it might help you understand it better if you consider that people aren't disappointed over the difference in one companion's gender. Rather it's the balance of representation across games from the company and what fans have come to expect. 

[MrMrPendragon]

Next time they do 9 companions, the last companion should be a genderless/sexless creature, like a wisp or a sylvan that doesn't talk at all, so there would be no assumptions or guesses regarding the tree's gender.

So there would be four males and four females, and one companion that's neither. There ya go, even split.