435 réponses à ce sujet

[Grieving Natashina]

Well, female representation in video games IS an issue. The gaming community trying to sweep these issues under the rug is also a huge problem.

 

That said, I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. To quote the great MovieBob: NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE BROKEN DOWN INTO EQUATIONS.

 

Sure, the game has a 6:3 party split when it comes to party members. What does that tell us about the depiction of the female characters within the game? What does that tell us about the number of prominent female NPCs within the game? If half of those six male party members are the biggest a**holes on the face of Thedas, would it have been significantly better if one of those a**holes had been a woman?

To me?  Yep.  I can understand if you feel differently, but yes.  I'd rather have a lady companion that some consider an a**hole (Morrigan fits that for some) than yet another guy being a jerk.  I can see the latter anytime I fire up youtube, but what I don't see much a hero and/or someone traveling with the hero that's a total jerk that happens to be a woman.  

 

 

Next time they do 9 companions, the last companion should be a genderless/sexless creature, like a wisp or a sylvan that doesn't talk at all, so there would be no assumptions or guesses regarding the tree's gender.

So there would be four males and four females, and one companion that's neither. There ya go, even split.

I loved Shale, and I consider the golem genderless.  I see no problem with this.

[Stelae]

As Gaider said, it seems that a good portion (if not an outright majority) of the universe's leadership are women in the first place. Flemeth, Morrigan, Leliana, Justinia (or her replacement), Celene, Fiora; these 6 are powerful women, with Flemeth being possibly the most powerful being on Thedas itself, and that's without including companions or potentially important supporting cast like the scribe girl. And that's as far as we know, they could also have Anora or a female Qunari leader or a female Elf leader or whatnot. So it's not like Bioware is sending the message that women should stay in the kitchen or else because 1 companion could stand to be a women, for pete's sake.

Perhaps it might be helpful if you think about how we actually play RPGs. 

 

Yes, there are a lot of important female characters who are allies, and quest givers, and potential adversaries and so on.  But of the hundreds of hours we are actually going to play the game, a lot of what we'll be doing is selecting a party from among the companions we have recruited and using them to battle things and reach other goals.  And our choices are 2:1 men.  And there's no getting around that.

 

So yes, the world may be a bastion of equality.  Or it may even be a functional matriarchy.  But the game?  Not so much.   Men have more agency, men are more abundant, women are not companions as often as they are objects (things to be gained, as alliances or LIs or whatever) or motivators (quest givers, Flemeth), in game terms.  It's an old problem with the portrayal of women, and high fantasy has it a lot.  Women are inspirations and motivators (Arwen in the LOTR books, any woman in Anglo Saxon sagas or the chivalric romances) rather than actors, and the action of the plot is male-dominated. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Next time they do 9 companions, the last companion should be a genderless/sexless creature, like a wisp or a sylvan that doesn't talk at all, so there would be no assumptions or guesses regarding the tree's gender.

So there would be four males and four females, and one companion that's neither. There ya go, even split.

 

Well some people say Cole's a companion and he's actually a spirit. So would that count considering his physical form is actually someone elses form it borrowed to exist in this world?

 

A silent companion sounds like a nightmare to work with, no heads up when it does anything.

[LinksOcarina]

Do you really not understand how a 2:1 ratio of men to women in the party is a step backward from DAO and DA2? 

 

And how relegating powerful women to background status is not an adequate replacement for giving us female characters with agency and control? 

 

I'm not in the mood to 101 you on gender equality, but a quick google, or indeed, a read of these forums, might help you understand why Bioware has dropped the ball here.

 

Because gender equality should always be measured due to a ratio, otherwise it has to be sexist, right? 

 

Stop the armchair psychology for a moment and answer this. What, in the end matters more? Equal representation through player agency, or equal representation through characterization? 

 

If it is player agency, then why play any RPG out there, or any game for that matter, because it doesn't really give you control or impetus due to gender lines, outside of a select few games with female protagonists only. By this logic you are presenting, the argument you are making regarding "representation through agency," games like The Last of Us or season One of The Walking Dead are just as sexist, because Ellie and Clementine are barely, or never playable. 

 

A 2:1 ratio for a party of playable characters is not a step back for anything, because the gender ratio is irrelevant for that very reason. You are circling your own logic here by being hypocritical of the main point; if you are really interested in player agency, the fact that BioWare has had the same ratio "problems" since Baldurs Gate should also be a problem. Ipso facto, Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 are just as sexist because of gender inequality. The ratio shouldn't matter then if its 2:1. What is the acceptable point then, that is poorly defined in your argument so far. 

 

By the way, doing the math, the ratio in Origins is also 5:3, not including the dog or shale since they are gender neutral, while Dragon Age 2 it is dependent on class; Mage players would have the same ratio of 5:3 going on 4:3 while non mage players can get a total of 4:3, but that evens out further to 4:2 for the remainder of the game. All of which women are the lower ratio of characters. 

 

Then again, you are using player agency in the wrong context...still, I should point out that a characters status, be it a background player, secondary role or primary player, should never be discounted here. In fact, it is more important than who you can play as, and whether or not they are male or female. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Aizen is like that fictional villain that just doesn't die.

What's this about Aizen?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Next time they do 9 companions, the last companion should be a genderless/sexless creature, like a wisp or a sylvan that doesn't talk at all, so there would be no assumptions or guesses regarding the tree's gender.

So there would be four males and four females, and one companion that's neither. There ya go, even split.

Or have a hermaphrodite. That way it is both male and female. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Or have a hermaphrodite. That way it is both male and female. 

Or better yet, Maevaris Tilani.

[LinksOcarina]

Yeah you and half the forum when women express concerns about representation.

 

Funny, huh.

 

Aren't you being a bit misandric now?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Or better yet, Maevaris Tilani.

I'd be fine with that. Especially if the next game takes place in or near Tevinter.

[MrMrPendragon]

Well some people say Cole's a companion and he's actually a spirit. So would that count considering his physical form is actually someone elses form it borrowed to exist in this world?
 
A silent companion sounds like a nightmare to work with, no heads up when it does anything.

I consider Cole male, and I use "his" and "he" when I refer to him. I also see Shale as a female because I believe the physical parts are not the important things when it comes to identity, to what gender you identify yourself as.

There has to be absolutely no doubt that the last companion is neither male or female, which is why I said Wisp or Sylvan. It can't be a companion that you can even "consider" to be either gender.

Otherwise we'll have Round 2,3, and most likely round 4 of this thread.

[Divine Justinia V]

Aren't you being a bit misandric now?

 

How is that at all being misandric? Are you kidding me lmao?

[Cainhurst Crow]

What's this about Aizen?

 

At what point did you think this wasn't an Aizen thread?

[TheCreeper]

Quick impression for you if regarding those didn't read the EU.  I have read most of it, but just think about this looks like to someone that doesn't soak up every little bit of Thedas.  For someone that has only played the games and has not read any of the optional material, it sounds like this:

 

1) Who?  Is that the Empress I've heard about a few times?

2) The Divine, or something like that. Don't know her name

3) Who?

4) If they choose that route.  Then yes, the average person buying the game outside of the forums would know about that.

5) What elven uprising?  Where is that?  The games never said anything about that,

6) Hey look it's Morrigan and Leliana!  Wait, they aren't going to be in my party, but it looks like they are important to the plot.  Someone I remember!  

 

Who said those NPCs didn't count for anything?  I didn't.  Most everyone that is talking about this didn't.  It does count.  That isn't the issue.  In case you've overlooked it, we do think BioWare is being progressive.  We do think they include groups that are normally overlooked or put down upon.  However, one of the statements BioWare has made repeatedly is that they feel that they always are looking to do better.  To be better and they've said that constructive fan feedback is something they value.  I've made it very clear, as have others, that we don't hate BioWare.  We are feeling a little let down and disappointed.  I'm sure I'll meet all these female NPCs in my travels.  Some will affect my story much more than others, I'm sure.  That doesn't replace having a companion to talk to, to befriend, to journey to the end of the game with.  Without going back to some Keep or camp.

 

Oh and also, it was stated that most of the leaders of the various factions die during the initial forming of the Breech.  So right there, that's a good chance that at least one if not more of these "important NPCs" will be dead before the game even fully starts.

 

And before someone goes 7/5 is equal, no, that's close to equal.  Equal would be an even 6:6 split, which most of us aren't asking for.  We know better, we just don't know why after months of "inclusion" talk they decided that having a ton of female NPCs that aren't our traveling companions was good enough.  I respect David's answer, but that doesn't change my puzzlement.   

Not going to tackle the rest of your argument but for Clarification

 

1. Empress Celene First of her Name Leader of Orlais

2. Yes the Divine, and yes she's likely going to die during the breach opening. Still Chantry is controlled by Women

3. From the Books, the Offical Leader of the Enter Circle organization, how much that means after Rebellion is iffy.

4. Fair Enough.

5.Briala, Heavily implied to be at very least the Face of the Elven Uprising (which was first hinted at in Asunder and expanded upon in Masked Empire, could have sworn it's been talked about a bit for DA:I though) Also the Empress's ex very long time lover.

6. Was talking about Leliana and Cassandra, both of which look like they're going to play a big role in the founding of the Inquisition And while she isn't a companion, Leliana is still your spymaster and was at that table, implying heavy plot involvement..

[Hanako Ikezawa]

At what point did you think this wasn't an Aizen thread?

I joined late.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I consider Cole male, and I use "his" and "he" when I refer to him. I also see Shale as a female because I believe the physical parts are not the important things when it comes to identity, to what gender you identify yourself as.

There has to be absolutely no doubt that the last companion is neither male or female, which is why I said Wisp or Sylvan. It can't be a companion that you can even "consider" to be either gender.

Otherwise we'll have Round 2,3, and most likely round 4 of this thread.

 

We should have a suit of armor, that animated by a haunted spirit. The spirit has a distortion where we overlap a male and female voice reading the lines on top one another, and it insists on not being called a gender specific addressing because it "confuses it".

[Faerlyte]

Not only are there only three female characters, but they all (appear) to have ridiculously short hair. Now let me state first off that I don't bear any ill will towards women with the short do - it's not my thing personally -, but what happened to variety? Sera had longer looking hair. It appears that it's short in the trailer, but perhaps I'm mistaken. 

 

At least the Qunari female concept art has longer hair...too bad we don't get one. Next thing you know there won't be any long hair in the create a character menu. 

 

This has become a giant rant about hair. I'll attempt to redirect. 

 

I would like a female Qunari as a companion, and not because I want to romance her - I don't swing that way. They're awesome looking (males and females) and I want more of them around. 

[thats1evildude]

I consider Cole male, and I use "his" and "he" when I refer to him. I also see Shale as a female because I believe the physical parts are not the important things when it comes to identity, to what gender you identify yourself as.

 

But ... Shale does not identify herself as female. She literally says "I have no gender" at one point after discovering she used to be a woman.

[LinksOcarina]

How is that all being misandric? Are you kidding me lmao?

 

Well, considering that the reply presumes that

 

A) Only women are complaining about this issue.

B ) That male posters in this forum are always against whatever you say due to gender.

C) That this issue is a concern for all women.

D) That the issue regarding representation is one that only women care about, since men are obviously against it. 

 

How is it not misandric exactly? Maybe its too strong of a word, but it is dangerously close to just general hatred due to gender. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Perhaps it might be helpful if you think about how we actually play RPGs. 

 

Yes, there are a lot of important female characters who are allies, and quest givers, and potential adversaries and so on.  But of the hundreds of hours we are actually going to play the game, a lot of what we'll be doing is selecting a party from among the companions we have recruited and using them to battle things and reach other goals.  And our choices are 2:1 men.  And there's no getting around that.

 

So yes, the world may be a bastion of equality.  Or it may even be a functional matriarchy.  But the game?  Not so much.   Men have more agency, men are more abundant, women are not companions as often as they are objects (things to be gained, as alliances or LIs or whatever) or motivators (quest givers, Flemeth), in game terms.  It's an old problem with the portrayal of women, and high fantasy has it a lot.  Women are inspirations and motivators (Arwen in the LOTR books, any woman in Anglo Saxon sagas or the chivalric romances) rather than actors, and the action of the plot is male-dominated. 

 

It's nice to know you've played the game from beginning to end and know how it all turns out.

 

Wait, no, you didn't. All that is pure assumption. For all we know the 6 males are the biggest, most useless doofuses on the planet unless they're hitting something with a stick, and the 3 females are those who are powerful, intelligent and actually get things done, along with the numerous female leaders.

 

I'm just asking people to not immediately jump to the conclusion that women will be background objects because we're one chick off the politically correct ratio in companions alone. Because that's definitely overreaction. And I'm not even sure a 5/4 split would please that many people; I still remember folks being dissapointed because the cover art is gender-neutral, rather than prominently displaying a woman.

[Divine Justinia V]

Well, considering that the reply presumes that

 

A) Only women are complaining about this issue.

That male posters in this forum are always against whatever you say due to gender.

C) That this issue is a concern for all women.

D) That the issue regarding representation is one that only women care about, since men are obviously against it. 

 

How is it not misandric exactly? Maybe its too strong of a word, but it is dangerously close to just general hatred due to gender. 

 

Jesus Christ lmfao I cannot believe this... and yet... a lot of people in this thread have either said or implied women are the ones overreacting..

 

Incredible.

[Ryzaki]

Honestly female and the gender ratio doesn't bother me that much. It's one game.

 

If it's lopsided AGAIN then I'll have an issue.

[Grieving Natashina]

Not going to tackle the rest of your argument but for Clarification

 

1. Empress Celene First of her Name Leader of Orlais

2. Yes the Divine, and yes she's likely going to die during the breach opening. Still Chantry is controlled by Women

3. From the Books, the Offical Leader of the Enter Circle organization, how much that means after Rebellion is iffy.

4. Fair Enough.

5.Briala, Heavily implied to be at very least the Face of the Elven Uprising (which was first hinted at in Asunder and expanded upon in Masked Empire, could have sworn it's been talked about a bit for DA:I though) Also the Empress's ex very long time lover.

6. Was talking about Leliana and Cassandra, both of which look like they're going to play a big role in the founding of the Inquisition And while she isn't a companion, Leliana is still your spymaster and was at that table, implying heavy plot involvement..

Again, this is from the outside looking in.

 

6) Leliana is back!  Oh look, Morrigan.  Hey, that's the woman that interrogated Varric.  I saw her in the trailer.

 

See, I know about them.  That wasn't the point.   My point was: How is the average player, the one not on the fan forums, supposed to know any thing about how important these NPCs might be this outside of the EU and the codex they may or may not have read?  If "most of the leaders of the various factions" are killed off, then that very well could render at least one of those examples moot.  

 

I didn't get into the series until about a year ago, so I was that outsider looking in.  If I was going to buy the game, without knowing anything else, who my companions are will be the first thing I notice if the game has such a system.  For many RPG fans, the shiny graphics and NPCs aren't going to be what they notice first.  What they will notice is gameplay and the potential party members and not necessarily in that order.  Shoot, many folks either just blindly click through or hit the spacebar through NPC dialogue after the first time they play.   They will, however, seek the different paths of conversation with their party members, and I know for a fact some do play through the games several times so they can experience that.

 

Am I saying that every lady that plays games or all roleplayers feel the way I did?  No, because I can't speak for them.  I try to be very cautious about making blanket statements.  I can speak for some of my friends and fellow roleplayers though. 

[tara]

Only women?

 

Well, I'm not a woman, so there goes that "presumption" of yours. lmao

[Cainhurst Crow]

Jesus Christ lmfao I cannot believe this... and yet... a lot of people in this thread have either said or implied women overreact..

 

Incredible.

 

It goes both ways honey, women have been calling out other women in this thread, and men have been chastising other men over this.

 

It's everyones game at this point, with gender mattering little in where the lines are drawn.