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[meltdown]

I know this has probably been asked a million times before but I'm having trouble finding the relevant info(this also might be the wrong place to post this?). When I saw that the PC Qunari is confirmed to be Vashoth and that the distinction was important, I got curious about the difference between Vashoth and Tal-vashoth, so I checked the DA wiki:

 

"When Qunari abandon the teachings of Qun they become known as Vashoth in the Qunari society and eventually they have to leave or risk re-education by the Ben-Hassrath."

 

So my understanding is that you are Vashoth until you fully leave the Qun and the Qunari behind, then you become Tal-vashoth?

 

I can potentially make sense of this in all cases except for Vashoth mages. Does the collaring of Saarebas occur as soon as magic is discovered in Qunari? How does this relate to the PC? I can imagine Qunari Saarebas or Tal-vashoth mages, but Vashoth mages? Presumably they don't just free you from your physical bondage as a Saarebas for abandoning the teachings of the Qun, but if there's an escape from the bondage and your Arvaarad, wouldn't you have to leave and become Tal-vashoth or be killed?

[nightcobra]

most likely you were:

 

1- you are born out of the Qun, both parents vashoth making you vashoth as well

    bas - one who doesn't follow the qun

    vashoth -  one who doesn't follow the qun (but of the horned race)

    Tal-vashoth - one who acted violently against the qun

 

2- you are a spirit made real at the time of the fade blast in the beginning. (what? it could happen)

 

 

apart from that...you'd be hunted by arvaraad and wouldn't be able to speak due to lack of tongue.

[TKavatar]

most likely you were:
 
1- you are born out of the Qun, both parents vashoth making you vashoth as well
 
2- you are a spirit made real at the time of the fade blast in the beginning. (what? it could happen)
 
 
apart from that...you'd be hunted by arvaraad and wouldn't be able to speak due to lack of tongue.

Ketojan could speak once his arvaraad gave him permission to do so.

[nightcobra]

Ketojan could speak once his arvaraad gave him permission to do so.

 

apparently he was a spirit healer, only logical explanation to mend tongue flesh

[meltdown]

most likely you were:

 

1- you are born out of the Qun, both parents vashoth making you vashoth as well

    bas - one who doesn't follow the qun

    vashoth -  one who doesn't follow the qun (but of the horned race)

    Tal-vashoth - one who acted violently against the qun

 

Right, but Gaider said that Vashoth is the preferred term at use here, rather than Tal-vashoth. Is it most likely that you are just an as-yet uncaptured Vashoth and that you become Tal-vashoth once you resist re-education? Would children of Tal-vashoth or Vashoth be considered Vashoth at birth or Bas? Bas seems more likely in this situation, to me. This is mostly based on the Kossith as a race kind of disposing of the idea of being Kossith when the Qun came about, I doubt that a racially Kossith child would automatically have any kind of connection to the Qun and thus the distinction of being either Vashoth or Tal-vashoth since they would have no previous connection to the religion itself.

 

If you're a mage, being anything but a product of a Tal-vashoth or Vashoth union doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You would be collared as soon as they realised you had magic, but then I'm back at the Bas child thing. I think that maybe the only situation that makes sense to me is an escape from the Qunari as a child, before the collaring occurred.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Right, but Gaider said that Vashoth is the preferred term at use here, rather than Tal-vashoth. Is it most likely that you are just an as-yet uncaptured Vashoth and that you become Tal-vashoth once you resist re-education? Would children of Tal-vashoth or Vashoth be considered Vashoth at birth or Bas? Bas seems more likely in this situation, to me. This is mostly based on the Kossith as a race kind of disposing of the idea of being Kossith when the Qun came about, I doubt that a racially Kossith child would automatically have any kind of connection to the Qun and thus the distinction of being either Vashoth or Tal-vashoth since they would have no previous connection to the religion itself.

 

If you're a mage, being anything but a product of a Tal-vashoth or Vashoth union doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You would be collared as soon as they realised you had magic, but then I'm back at the Bas child thing. I think that maybe the only situation that makes sense to me is an escape from the Qunari as a child, before the collaring occurred.

Children of Vashoth are Vashoth. Vashoth refers to anyone who fits the definition "member of Qunari race who doesn't follow the Qun."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

apparently he was a spirit healer, only logical explanation to mend tongue flesh

The tongue is only removed if the Saarebas has been discovered communicating with spirits. 

[meltdown]

Children of Vashoth are Vashoth. Vashoth refers to anyone who fits the definition "member of Qunari race who doesn't follow the Qun."

 

The Qunari aren't a race though, the Qun is a religion, which is why other races can be also become Qunari.

 

It's a generalisation made by outside races used to define the Kossith since the Kossith themselves don't share information about their race even amongst themselves. Only the understanding of outsiders defines them as racially Qunari.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Qunari isn't a race though, it's a religion, which is why other races can be Qunari.

 

It's a generalisation made by outside races used to define the Kossith since the Kossith themselves don't share information about their race even amongst themselves. Only the understanding of outsiders defines them as racially Qunari.

It is an example of where the term can mean both. Jewish is a real world equivalent. When someone is Jewish, either they are part of the Jewish faith or descend from people from Judea. 

 

Kossith is an ancient term not even the Qunari recognize anymore. It'd be like calling British people Anglo-Saxons. 

[meltdown]

It is an example of where the term can mean both. Jewish is a real world equivalent. When someone is Jewish, either they are part of the Jewish faith or descend from people from Judea. 

 

Kossith is an ancient term not even the Qunari recognize anymore. It'd be like calling British people Anglo-Saxons. 

 

Let's say that hypothetically the Qunari come to a part of the world where they have not been seen before. An outsider asks them who they are. Their response is 'Qunari', as race does not define their culture, a culture that revolves around the Qun. The outsiders then refer to them as Qunari, and of course the Qunari do not 'correct' them because there is nothing to correct. Their identity is not within their race, but in the Qun's teachings. So yes, in this, it can be used as both, but I don't believe that the Qun faith places any importance on race, as I've said. Which makes it hard for me to believe that children of Tal-vashoth or Vashoth are Vashoth just because of their race.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Let's say that hypothetically the Qunari come to a part of the world where they have not been seen before. An outsider asks them who they are. Their response is 'Qunari', as race does not define their culture, a culture that revolves around the Qun. The outsiders then refer to them as Qunari, and of course the Qunari do not 'correct' them because there is nothing to correct. Their identity is not within their race, but in the Qun's teachings. So yes, in this, it can be used as both, but I don't believe that the Qun faith places any importance on race, as I've said.

I don't get where you're going with this. Both those of the Qun and those not of it call the horned, grey-skinned people the Qunari race. 

[meltdown]

I don't get where you're going with this. Both those of the Qun and those not of it call the horned, grey-skinned people the Qunari race. 

Yes, because as I said, actual race doesn't seem to matter to them. It is not defined in the Qun that you have an inherently Qunari self because you are originally racially Kossith(the term is antiquated because their cultural identity has replaced their racial one, and thus it is not needed or used anymore and thus to the Qunari 'incorrect').

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, because as I said, actual race doesn't seem to matter to them. It is not defined in the Qun that you have an inherently Qunari self because you are originally racially Kossith(the term is antiquated because their cultural identity has replaced their racial one, and thus it is not needed or used anymore and thus to the Qunari 'incorrect').

Then why call them Kossith?

 

They call their race Qunari, other races call their race Qunari. The devs call their race Qunari. Their race is indisputably referred to as Qunari.

[meltdown]

This is not turning into yet another Kossith vs Qunari debate.

 

They call their race Qunari, other races call them Qunari. The devs call their race Qunari. Their race is undisbutably referred to as Qunari.

It wasn't even the original point of the post. The point is the distinction between Vashoth and Tal-vashoth, and as you must leave the Qunari faith/actively denounce to be considered Vashoth and Tal-vashoth respectively, I don't think it makes sense to call a child from a Vashoth or Tal-vashoth union anything but Bas as they have not left or denounced anything, and are by definition ignorant to the Qun. Being of the race, whatever you want to call it, should have no bearing on the child's social standing because that's what Vashoth and Tal-vashoth are. Social standings.

[Thomas Andresen]

Kossith is an ancient term not even the Qunari recognize anymore. It'd be like calling British people Anglo-Saxons.

Actually, I'd say it's more like calling the British people Germanic, which is just as true, though less specific and less known.

For the terms, I think it'd be more correct to say that a "bas" is "one who has never been touched by the Qun."

Also, I've been under the impression that the Qunari leave the Vashoth be, unless the Vashoth makes the first move, in which case they're Tal-Vashoth. And that "first move" is more often than not, in their homeland at least, marauding the farmland and attacking and plundering civilian holdings with no means to defend themselves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It wasn't even the original point of the post. The point is the distinction between Vashoth and Tal-vashoth, and as you must leave the Qunari faith/actively denounce to be considered Vashoth and Tal-vashoth respectively, I don't think it makes sense to call a child from a Vashoth or Tal-vashoth union anything but Bas as they have not left or denounced anything, and are by definition ignorant to the Qun. Being of the race, whatever you want to call it, should have no bearing on the child's social standing because that's what Vashoth and Tal-vashoth are. Social standings.

No, I started by saying that the children of Vashoth are also Vashoth since that refers to any member of the Qunari race that is not a member of the Qunari faith. Then you brought in that Qunari isn't the name of the race. 

 

Regardless, in the DA Wiki page on the Inquisitor:

• Qunari Inquisitor is a Vashoth, a Qunari who was never introduced to the Qun.

[Thomas Andresen]

No, I started by saying that the children of Vashoth are also Vashoth since that refers to any member of the Qunari race that is not a member of the Qunari faith. Then you brought in that Qunari isn't the name of the race.

I think it's more that children of Vashoth are also Vashoth because that's all they got. In it's true meaning, Vashoth is someone who left the Qun, and the children of Vashoth are Vashoth because their parents were.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think it's more that children of Vashoth are also Vashoth because that's all they got. In it's true meaning, Vashoth is someone who left the Qun, and the children of Vashoth are Vashoth because their parents were.

Pretty much. Similar to how the children of Casteless Dwarves are Casteless. The children inherit the title.

[meltdown]

 

No, I started by saying that the children of Vashoth are also Vashoth since that refers to any member of the Qunari race that is not a member of the Qunari faith. Then you brought in that Qunari isn't the name of the race. 

 

Regardless, in the DA Wiki page on the Inquisitor:

• Qunari Inquisitor is a Vashoth, a Qunari who was never introduced to the Qun.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Tal-Vashoth

 

"Qunari, Seer said, are people who follow the Qun. Her people. Those born into Qunari society who reject the Qun are called Vashoth, which means "gray ones". These gray ones must leave their homes, for they have no place among the Qunari."

 

Never introduced doesn't make sense. This seems like either the person who edited the Inquisitor page worded it wrong or Bioware themselves haven't policed the terms very well.

[meltdown]

I think it's more that children of Vashoth are also Vashoth because that's all they got. In it's true meaning, Vashoth is someone who left the Qun, and the children of Vashoth are Vashoth because their parents were.

It's not implausible, but what I'm trying to say here is that race would be a defining factor in this, and the Qunari society places very little emphasis on race. If Vashoth and Tal-vashoth are ONLY racial terms, then the PC mage would have to be a child of a Vashoth or Tal-vashoth union. But when you consider that most of the definitions we have for Vashoth and Tal-vashoth are very cultural/religious in nature and never seem to define the importance of race, it's trickier.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All you need to know basically is that the Qunari Inquisitor has never been exposed to the Qun. So your mage will not be like the Qun' Saarebas. 

[Thomas Andresen]

The Qunari Inquisitor is Qunari.

As I understand it, Vashoth doesn't use that term for themselves; it's only what the followers of the Qun call them. Only the Tal-Vashoth embrace the name that the Qunari gave them. The Vashoth think of themselves as "people" and if they have to be moe specific than that, they'll probably be more inclined to accept Qunari than Vashoth.

[Thomas Andresen]

So your mage will not be like the Qun' Saarebas.

And would be just as mystified of the concept as a human or elf mage would be.

[meltdown]

The Qunari Inquisitor is Qunari.

As I understand it, Vashoth doesn't use that term for themselves; it's only what the followers of the Qun call them. Only the Tal-Vashoth embrace the name that the Qunari gave them. The Vashoth think of themselves as "people" and if they have to be moe specific than that, they'll probably be more inclined to accept Qunari than Vashoth.

Really wasn't my intention to get into a war about what Qunari means as a race. My intention was to sort out the importance of the Qunari PC being Vashoth and what it means for mages. As far as I knew, there was no evidence that Tal'vashoth and Vashoth were inherently exclusive to the race itself(Vashoth itself in the codex entry link I posted is simply explained as someone born into the faith who then rejects it), but apparently they must be. This line of reasoning makes a Vashoth-born Qunari PC make sense, which is fine, but I think the terms aren't as clear as they should be.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Really wasn't my intention to get into a war about what Qunari means as a race. My intention was to sort out the importance of the Qunari PC being Vashoth and what it means for mages. As far as I knew, there was no evidence that Tal'vashoth and Vashoth were exclusive to the race itself, but apparently they must be. This line of reasoning makes a Vashoth-born Qunari PC make sense, which is fine, but I think the terms aren't as clear as they should be.

It's the Qunari. Things are NEVER as clear as they should be.