129 réponses à ce sujet

[Sion1138]

Hey, N7recruit, did you pay much attention on Ilos?  The relay blew up when you went through it, they can't send people through.  So your solution to a plot device you didn't like was to retcon another plot device?

 

Don't make me open my retcon bag.

[robertthebard]

It's really not that I see it personally, it's just that I see it a lot differently than the "Shep's a moron" crowd.  The entirety of the ruling class, for lack of a better term, were the morons.  It is no longer about strategy or tactics, it's a nasty ground/space war against an overwhelming force, so it's now down to fight or die, and then, lo and behold, come up with something to do to help.  Not a fan of the crucible et al, but the time for talking about it is over.

[N7recruit]

Hey, N7recruit, did you pay much attention on Ilos?  The relay blew up when you went through it, they can't send people through.  So your solution to a plot device you didn't like was to retcon another plot device?

How would that be a retcon? So we could't fix a somewhat broken relay, But we can build the Crucible, a device that has never worked ever, no one knows what it does or how it will do it. We are making Type 3 technology here, but for some reason we can't fix a relay... I'm not trying to sound snarky I just think it's a million times more believable that what happened in priority earth. Plus we are using a previous plot device rather than pulling one out of our ass. 

[Bob from Accounting]

You've proving my point.

 

By whining about how implausible the ending is, you're just proving that this has little to actually do with Shepard and more to do with the larger narrative. Which is a justified complaint, but not one that has to do with Shepard being an 'idiot.'

[robertthebard]

A plot device that was also pulled out of someone's ass.  However, since we didn't have schematics on the Crucible until after the Reapers hit, when did we rebuild it?  Why did we rebuild it?  Who's brilliant idea was it to dump funding into that?  I die at the beam, unless I'm going for a + save game.  Marauder Shields wins the day.  I don't need to revive another DeM to save me from another one.

[In Exile]

 

I always did love how the "That's your plan" fans rail to make Shepard look stupid.  My response to that, every single time I see it is simply this:  No, my plan was to start preparing for this 2 years ago, and change, when Sovereign attacked the Citadel.  Your plan was to bury your head in the sand and pretend it didn't exist, and now, you expect me to magically pull your asses out of the fire, and since I can't, you seem shocked that we're now fighting for our lives.

 

Except that's not what Shepard says. This is like someone saying "We're lost, what do we do?" and someone else replying "We get home or we starve!". It's a stupid thing to say that just basically describes the good/bad outcome. 

[Mihura]

It is going to depend on the plot and since the Inquisitor is the special one, I have my doubts. I am not a fan of power fantasies. For this we really have to wait and see but I would not would my breath if I was you. 

[Bob from Accounting]

Since you felt apt to call Shepard an 'idiot,' I'm not going to hold back. N7, your 'idea' is absolutely terrible. Terrible. I can think of a half dozen reasons off the top of my head why it would never work.

[Sion1138]

Yes, Mass Effect and Shepard do have it's issues and problems. As every story of any significant length and any characters with significant screentime do.

 

However, it boils down to this simple fact:

 

I have absolutely no doubt - absolutely no doubt whatsoever - that even if Shepard came up with an utterly brilliant, scientific plausible and logistically viable idea to defeat the Reapers which nevertheless ended in failure, there would still be masses of people here deriding him as an 'idiot' because he didn't think to use a 'super-duper computer virus.' Or he didn't 'decide to build a bajillion dreadnoughts.'

 

Yes and we're discussing and criticizing those problems. So what's the problem?

 

You sound almost religious in your state of absolutely no doubt.

[N7recruit]

You've proving my point.

 

By whining about how implausible the ending is, you're just proving that this has little to actually do with Shepard and more to do with the larger narrative. Which is a justified complaint, but not one that has to do with Shepard being an 'idiot.'

So if the Narrative is dodgy & a lot of the Characters are stupid, it invalidates the clam that Sheps a Moron even though he/she acts like a moron in the game? I get what you are saying but I didn't think a bad narrative excused the PC of acting Stupid. You could have a great narrative and a stupid PC. Would it be okay to criticise him or her then? I'm just trying to see why I should excuse Shep's stupidity just because the Narrative Sucks

[Bob from Accounting]

The problem is that people - including you - are not actually addressing the problem at all. A problem of the narrative, of a plot not being satisfying, is not a problem of a character being an 'idiot.'

 

Mass Effect didn't end well. That's fair. There were and are a lot of very serious problems. Projecting your frustrating on the protagonist and assuming things must not have turned out well is because they're an 'idiot' is foolish.

[Nyeredzi]

Shepard was an idiot, that's why we all loved him

[KaiserShep]

I didn't think Hawke was an idiot.

[Sion1138]

The problem is that people - including you - are not actually addressing the problem at all. A problem of the narrative, of a plot not being satisfying, is not a problem of a character being an 'idiot.'

 

Mass Effect didn't end well. That's fair. There were and are a lot of very serious problems. Projecting your frustrating on the protagonist and assuming things must not have turned out well is because they're an 'idiot' is foolish.

 

Well, you make it sound as though the protagonist and the plot are two independent elements. They are the same.

[Bob from Accounting]

So if the Narrative is dodgy & a lot of the Characters are stupid, it invalidates the clam that Sheps a Moron even though he/she acts like a moron in the game? I get what you are saying but I didn't think a bad narrative excused the PC of acting Stupid. You could have a great narrative and a stupid PC. Would it be okay to criticise him or her then? I'm just trying to see why I should excuse Shep's stupidity just because the Narrative Sucks

 

No, you clearly don't 'get what I am saying.'

 

The 'idea' you wrote out a page ago is terrible. It has Shepard acting like a moron. It's filled with holes. It's clumsy. I can give you half a dozen reasons why it wouldn't work.

 

But it's okay for you. Because it gives you a big ending with the Reapers blowing up. Whereas the current endings don't really have that. Isn't that right?

 

And that's the problem. All you're defining 'idiot' by is someone who doesn't defeat the Reapers.

[Bob from Accounting]

Well, you make it sound as though the protagonist and the plot are two independent elements. They are the same.

 

They aren't the same.

[Setiweb]

Imagine if the dialogue wheel came up and a choice was, "Start a new thread."

[Maria Caliban]

The basic principle of a Bioware Protagonist is that you solve all problems through murder.

Sometimes you murder and then have dialogue options.
 

Generally speaking, it's very hard for an RPG to let you be intelligent because intelligent, clever solutions to problems are hard for the designers to implement. Story-wise you have to be in a box, and then developers don't want to override your agency by making you come up with set plans by putting words in your mouth, so it's the NPCs who come up with all the ideas.

Though I've noticed that NPC plans almost always depend on a crack team of four fighters making it inside a highly secured location to perform a single act that will lead to total victory.. but if said crack team loses, there's no hope for the future.

If the NPCs were that smart, I'd hope they'd set up contingencies.

[N7recruit]

No, you clearly don't 'get what I am saying.'

 

The 'idea' you wrote out a page ago is terrible. It has Shepard acting like a moron. It's filled with holes. It's clumsy. I can give you half a dozen reasons why it wouldn't work.

 

But it's okay for you. Because it gives you a big ending with the Reapers blowing up. Whereas the current endings don't really have that. Isn't that right?

 

And that's the problem. All you're defining 'idiot' by is someone who doesn't defeat the Reapers.

Ah... with my "terrible" idea we still use the Crucible so... Yeah. This was for a substitute for Priority earth & Anderson's suicidal plan. I'm curious though about the flaws in the Idea to use the Conduit on Ilos again. I'd like to read them if you would PM them to me. The Citadel wasn't moved if the relay being out of range was one of the dozen holes in it.

 

Yeah this tread really got derailed   

[N7recruit]

Imagine if the dialogue wheel came up and a choice was, "Start a new thread."

Always a great option to have 

[Sion1138]

They aren't the same.

 

How? The plot defines the choices on offer for the protagonist, therefore if the plot is less than clever, so is the protagonist.

 

What exacerbates the problem, and where the separation between plot and protagonist occurs as far the this discussion is concerned is in the wording of those choices, the inability of the protagonist to point out the obvious and their inability to use their experience and knowledge in dialogue.

 

The sentences cited in previous posts are simply uninspired (huge understatement there), combined with say, not being able to say the obvious thing to solve a problem (Mass Effect 2) makes the word "stupid" an astute description of Shepard as a protagonist.

 

These problems are partly caused by the plot but they are reflected in the protagonist.

[Sion1138]

It is going to depend on the plot and since the Inquisitor is the special one, I have my doubts. I am not a fan of power fantasies. For this we really have to wait and see but I would not would my breath if I was you. 

 

I hope that this "Inquisition" will be an open sort of organization, meaning that it's only goal will be to stop whatever this doomsday scenario is, and that the how of it will be left up to the player.

 

And, if we get to destroy the world too, that would be phenomenal as it would offer a wide range of attitudes for the protagonist to assume.

[Steppenwolf]

PTSD doesn't work the way you think it does.

PTSD doesn't work the way BioWare thinks it does. Bad dreams and self doubt=/=PTSD. I served and worked with many people afflicted with PTSD after I served. I know what PTSD looks like.

Not to be rude but I never saw anything of shepard "falling apart" from seeing the child die. They didn't become depressed, they didn't freeze up in combat, they didn't start balling for no reason, they didn't have weird mood swings unless either provoked or player decisions.
I don't see what qualifies falling apart if they still function on par and preform above and beyond what is needed at times.

What else gave Shepard nightmares and made him question himself? Shepard has seen some serious ****. He saw people he knew being turned into techno-organic goop to make a Reaper. He saw thousands of people die at the battle at the Citadel. He went on tons of Alliance missions where the **** hit the fan. But one kid dies and he can't sleep and can't lead without someone reassuring him. It was a silly plot device to force an emotion on the players. They didn't take the time to do it organically, with good writing, so they made it involuntary with aggravating cutscenes and auto-dialogue.

Utterly ridiculous.
 
Are you honest enough to admit that this places just about every sidequest in existence as a 'moronic excursion' and thus just about every RPG character in existence a moron? Or does this pathetic and childish comment only extend to games which are convienant for you to criticize right at the moment?

Side quests should never be the determining factor as to whether your crew lives or dies. The "suicide mission" was a hamfisted excuse to pad out 1/3 of the game with errands/favors for the crew. Everything Shepard does is a suicide mission but now everyone involved needs to tie up their oh so dramatic loose ends because this is the big one. Going after Saren, an army of Geth and an actual Reaper was kid stuff. But going after big bugs is SERIOUS BUSINESS!. It was lazy, cliched writing for an irrelevant game. It did nothing to further the plot of the franchise and was just Mac Walters' ego-stroking getting out of hand because he was so enamored with his baby, Cerberus.

[Bob from Accounting]

No. 'Stupid' would be making such an absurd claim over maybe a few lines of dialogue out of many thousands. Where exactly are in instances where Shepard is not able to say the supposed obvious thing to solve a problem?

[Sion1138]

What else gave Shepard nightmares and made him question himself? Shepard has seen some serious ****.

 

Well, he's seen a person get melted.