18 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

My guess would be that most people do Mordin's LM either right before, or sometime after the Collector ship mission, meaning they will not get to the "Salarian Scientist" dialogue until after it is revealed the Collectors are Protheans. But if you can get to that dialogue before doing the Collector Ship Mordin will have an extra investigate option where he discusses how he knows the Collectors are just puppets and not intelligent beings.

 

The dialogue is fairly similar to what you would hear after the Collector Ship mission, but one line struck me. Mordin talks about his disgust with how the Collectors don't grow and evolve. At best they force other species to evolve in order to fight them.

 

This struck me as another potential explanation of Reaper motivations: they are trying to force evolution on organic life forms. Now what their end goal might be I am not sure. Maybe some adaptation that would allow machines to use biotics. But the idea of using the galaxy as some gigantic test tube to try out different evolutionary paths seems like a better idea than "salvation through destruction." Actually, just about any idea seems better than "salvation through destruction."

[DeathScepter]

better idea than what we gotten in ME3.  

[SwobyJ]

Harbinger's form of evolution involves being in Reaper form.

 

Everything else is meaningless. Everything else is a laboratory, at best. Everything else is just a stepping stone, a selection of potential crops to Reap so that better Reapers may be created.

 

To him, that is salvation. Once preserved, you're saved from:

-death

-war

-chaos

-physical constraints

-pain

 

The problem for us is that we see just people ground into pulp and put into tubes.

 

And if that was all that happens, then yeah, it sounds stupid. And it might still be, because that's still all we know about the Ascension process.

 

But I'm inclined to think that there's more to it than it seems. Sorry, I just do. Personally, I wonder about minds being uploaded into another realm of existence - yes, possibly Matrix-ish.

 

 

 

Also, we may see the Collectors as abominations (and we can be right about that), but we also should understand them AS mindless beings. As in, they don't actually have the minds to....care what's happening to them. They are pretty much organic robots, no sapience involved.

 

So we can hate what the Prothians became, but when it comes down to it, it isn't like these Collectors are some humans screaming in pain. Hard to adjust the mind to it (and it probably requires some sociopathy), but they really are just flesh-puppet servants.

 

~~

 

Okay, to address your actual point. Yeah, Harbinger wanting to force evolution is pretty evident. I just can't see that 'end point' to be anything but a Reaper itself.

[DeathScepter]

Calling Collectors robots or organic machines is alright. If We can take into the account of the Awaken Collector, We can compare them to the Terminators in their relationship to the Reapers(Skynet).  In Lore, All Terminators have a learning computer but they have a restraining program located in a chip, as of T2, you can turn it off and it will become Free Willed Cyborg. Basicly the same are with the Collectors, they have "intelligence" similar with the Terminators and lacking of the free will that enslaves to the Reapers. OF course Leviathans did give them free will again to become Awaken again. 

 

 

 

My point is that calling Collectors slaves of the Reapers, that can operate on their own in how to do the goals of the Reapers while they are asleep. Also they have similarities to the Terminators of the Terminators series.

[SwobyJ]

I have my own weird thoughts about Awakened Collectors.

 

But to view things more literally, I'd see Awakened Collectors as but partial Leviathan thralls. Or rather, 'ghosts'.

Vengeance.

Not quite sapient, but carry that 'genetic memory' just enough to automatically fight against the Reapers, or 'want' to act in opposition. Somewhat like the Collector General once being released of control in ME2.

 

I wouldn't agree that they have free will. Too much insect for that. They're the last gasp of a lost people.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

To be broad, I'd have made the overall Reaper motivation a combination of the Daleks and Cybermen from Doctor Who.

 

Essentially, it'd be a marriage of communism and nazism in machine form.

[KaiserShep]

To be broad, I'd have made the overall Reaper motivation a combination of the Daleks and Cybermen from Doctor Who.
 
Essentially, it'd be a marriage of communism and nazism in machine form.

A machine religion would've been interesting, and it would parallel the geth.

[NeroonWilliams]

The evolution angle (as much as technological advancement can be called evolution) was really covered by Sovereign back in ME1.  He tells us that the Reapers are working to streamline the process of moving from harvest to harvest.  The Collectors are simply another extension of the principle.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

A machine religion would've been interesting, and it would parallel the geth.

 

There really is no concept of machine religion in either of those philosophies.

 

What I'm saying is that I'd essentially combine the raw hatred and xenophobia of the Daleks with the need to expand and 'upgrade' of the Cybermen. 

 

Any DW fans here would see where I was going with it. They'd be beings of pure hatred and racism(like the Daleks), but have a twisted sense of equality (raising everyone to their level via 'upgrading', like the Cybermen). They see their form as beautiful and perfect (similar to how the Daleks hold their view of hatred), and will either assimilate and upgrade, or delete and exterminate any who resists (like both the Daleks and Cybermen). Like both the Cybermen and Daleks, people are forcibly converted into both, similar to the Reapers indoctrination (the Daleks turn living and dead people into Dalek puppets who are essentially Daleks in human form and used as spies, saboteurs, and assassins, with the most intelligent and genius convertee's turned into full-fledged Daleks. The Cybermen convert by forcibly eliminating all emotion and personality in a person, and then instill them with the cause of the Cybermen before integrating them into new Cybermen, either by extracting their brain and loading it into the shell of a Cyberman, or combining their flesh with the body of a Cyberman.

[DeathScepter]

ME, you painfully reminded me of a nightmare I once had, Yes it does involve Daleks within the Mass Effect. Yes it is quite dark and much darker than was what we gotten within ME2/ME3.  The dream acted more in line of ME2/ME3 with better character progression with a hint of Dead Space.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ME, you painfully reminded me of a nightmare I once had, Yes it does involve Daleks within the Mass Effect. Yes it is quite dark and much darker than was what we gotten within ME2/ME3.  The dream acted more in line of ME2/ME3 with better character progression with a hint of Dead Space.

 

Sounds interesting. I'd add an element of Lovecraftian horror to the mix with the Reapers. Something similar to the Beast or Great Intelligence. The Reapers need an element of fundamental horror that evoke sheer terror on the primal level.

 

You can't reason with a Dalek or a Cyberman, but there also needs to be an element of them being like an uncontrollable virus or plague, something that you really can't stop no matter what you do (beyond building and using the Crucible). Some kind of reality-bending horror that doesn't have an abstraction of thought to it, just a gut-churning revulsion no matter how you spin it or what kind of person you are. This is the element of Lovecraftian Horror I'd imagine would work best. They can't really do the unknowable monster, since it's something that physically defies reality.

 

Let's do this: throw in the element of the Weeping Angels mixed with the Midnight entity. Combine those with the Daleks and Cybermen's purpose, and you have something that is truly terrifying.

[DeathScepter]

well in the nightmare, the first part had space station, interior of the it, it was very oppressive to the point, becoming a dalek was the better option and yes Daleks did experiments on humans and other species of all stripes to maximize their genetic potential and use nanites and implants to enslave them. Also Dalek use the test subjects for slave labor. Also many "test subjects" became sleeper agents for covert missions and abominations for battle.

[AlexMBrennan]

At best they force other species to evolve in order to fight them.

Please explain what that means , because it doesn't make any sense given my basic understanding of the idea. 

[DeathScepter]

to Alex, conflict forces people do adapt and change their thinking inorder to be successful. The more adaptive you are, the quicker you can evolve. The Quicker you evolve, the stronger you can become. 

[CrutchCricket]

There really is no concept of machine religion in either of those philosophies.

 

What I'm saying is that I'd essentially combine the raw hatred and xenophobia of the Daleks with the need to expand and 'upgrade' of the Cybermen. 

 

Any DW fans here would see where I was going with it. They'd be beings of pure hatred and racism(like the Daleks), but have a twisted sense of equality (raising everyone to their level via 'upgrading', like the Cybermen). They see their form as beautiful and perfect (similar to how the Daleks hold their view of hatred), and will either assimilate and upgrade, or delete and exterminate any who resists (like both the Daleks and Cybermen). Like both the Cybermen and Daleks, people are forcibly converted into both, similar to the Reapers indoctrination (the Daleks turn living and dead people into Dalek puppets who are essentially Daleks in human form and used as spies, saboteurs, and assassins, with the most intelligent and genius convertee's turned into full-fledged Daleks. The Cybermen convert by forcibly eliminating all emotion and personality in a person, and then instill them with the cause of the Cybermen before integrating them into new Cybermen, either by extracting their brain and loading it into the shell of a Cyberman, or combining their flesh with the body of a Cyberman.

 

Practically this basically boils down to the Reapers reaping because they want more Reapers (reproduction as seen in ME2) but with a lot of added human emotions and concepts (hate, beauty, xenophobia etc.)

 

I'm fine with the Reapers thinking they are superior to us because they really are, in every way. I think the only purpose you need to define is that they harverst to make more Reapers. Being machines, or machine-like it is implied some greater purpose beyond self-propagation must exist. Fine. But what does it matter to us? We know all we need to know to want to stop them. Beyond that I also think we shouldn't be able to know. I very much want the return of the incomprehensible vast beings of ME1. I don't think you need to go full Lovecraft with them and that is dispelled in ME2. Themes of dealing with something fundamentally different from our human perspective but inherently at odds with it are far more interesting than "oh look it's Skynet again".

[AlanC9]

Needing to reproduce explains the harvest, but not the cycles. The Goa'uld had a much more sensible operation if harvesting organics is the goal.

[AlexMBrennan]

The more adaptive you are, the quicker you can evolve. The Quicker you evolve, the stronger you can become.

Bacteria can evolve much faster than humans (e.g. They developed the ability to use a completely new source of food I. Less than a human lifetime source)... So you are saying bacteria are stronger than humans, and rule planet? Again, I do not think evolution works anything like you, or the Me writers, imagine. You might as well replace it with "reverse the matrix polarity" for all the sense it makes.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Bacteria can evolve much faster than humans (e.g. They developed the ability to use a completely new source of food I. Less than a human lifetime source)... So you are saying bacteria are stronger than humans, and rule planet? Again, I do not think evolution works anything like you, or the Me writers, imagine. You might as well replace it with "reverse the matrix polarity" for all the sense it makes.

 

From a practical standpoint, Bacteria can indeed be more powerful and stronger than humans. What do you think would happen if a strain of ever-evolving bacteria got loose? Or a Virus? We see massive health epidemics worldwide with diseases that are, for the most part, nigh-unstoppable. AIDS is a pandemic. The 1918 Spanish Flu outbreak killed an estimated 5% of the World's population. Or the Bubonic Plague, which killed a third of the population of Europe. 

 

Yes, bacteria do indeed have the capacity to be 'more powerful' than humans.

 

They already rule the planet. They have since life first arose.

[Farangbaa]

From a practical standpoint, Bacteria can indeed be more powerful and stronger than humans. What do you think would happen if a strain of ever-evolving bacteria got loose? Or a Virus? We see massive health epidemics worldwide with diseases that are, for the most part, nigh-unstoppable. AIDS is a pandemic. The 1918 Spanish Flu outbreak killed an estimated 5% of the World's population. Or the Bubonic Plague, which killed a third of the population of Europe. 

 

Yes, bacteria do indeed have the capacity to be 'more powerful' than humans.

 

They already rule the planet. They have since life first arose.

 

http://en.wikipedia....2#CCR5-.CE.9432

 

That's just some extra info though, nothing against your story.

 

to Alex, conflict forces people do adapt and change their thinking inorder to be successful. The more adaptive you are, the quicker you can evolve. The Quicker you evolve, the stronger you can become. 

 

No. Evolution has no direction, no goals. It doesn't actively adapt or evolve. Adaptation is a horribbly chosen word in the context of evolution, as it seems to imply direction (or that action was taken to arm oneself against a threat). This is not what happens. Some just are better equipped to deal with a (new) threat, some just aren't, and if thet pressure of that (new) threat is strong enough it will shape future generations.

 

Again, adaptation is horrible word in the context of evolution, I have no idea why they haven't stopped using it yet.