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Gender-neutral companions


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#1
Cainhurst Crow

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Inspire by a discussion in a thread. The prospect arose of having a gender neutral companion, one who was neither a male or a female, to be a member of our party in the future, and the various forms that could take. The prospect of some entity, such as a wisp or slyven, a spirit from the fade, hermaphrodites, and even a transgender character such as Maevaris Tilani that would occupy both genders simultaneously.

It was interesting, so I decided to open it up to other people. What would your ideas for a gender-neutral or genderless character be? I know what mine would be, a suit of armor with a soul bound to it and animating it, similar to how shale was. We wouldn't be able to tell what gender the original person was, and they themselves wouldn't identify by any gender. Also it'd be a cool character to see in action;.

 

Armor.jpg


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#2
Allan Schumacher

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1. I can understand the reasoning presented by the community, sure. But at the same time I can't say I agree because it sounds way, way, too close to discrimination for me to get behind. Saying a person isn't allowed to portray a certain character and do a highly respectful and dignified portrayal simply because of the arbitrary differences of their circumstance harkens way too much back to the time where certain characters wouldn't be allowed to appear on the screen with other characters due to such arbitrary differences. If a trans-actor or trans-actress gives the better performance of the character, then by all means they should portray that character. But if there is an actor who captures the character more, their spirit more so then their physical attributes, then that person should probably get the role. It's like if white people were denouncing the marvel movies nick fury because the nick fury in the comics was white and in the movies hes black.

 

I don't actually agree nor disagree with whether or not someone like Jared Leto should be a trans* character, mostly because until 37 seconds ago I was completely oblivious to it as a topic.

 

I can see ocean's perspective, however.  As an analogue, however, it wasn't *too* long ago that white people commonly used to portray other races.  Things like black face or Mickey Rooney's Mr. Yunioshi.  Taking an extreme example just to sort of illustrate: I think Daniel Day Lewis is an excellent actor... would he be the best candidate for portraying Martin Luther King Jr.?  Going waaaaaaaaay back, women couldn't even be actors... but I don't think we'd want Patrick Stewart replacing Cate Blanchett as Elizabeth! :P

 

At the same time though, I can agree that I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary either.  Is it bad that Leondardo DiCaprio plays a person with a handicap in What's Eating Gilbert Grape?  Can a straight/gay man not play a gay/straight man in a role?

 

Another thing to keep in mind, too, is that discrimination may be internalized and implemented institutionally, even with no overt fault of those that perpetrate it.  There was a study done where professors, both men and women, rated a potential research applicant.  In the experiment, the application was identical for all people, except some people received one that had a woman's name, while others had one that had a man's name.

 

(NOte: Statistical significance, since I use the term, denotes "The difference is significant enough that luck/random chance most likely is not a factor."  Not "this is important).

 

There was no stastitical significance in how the professors rated the applicants, regardless of being a man or a woman.  That is, the deviation in scores between men and women professors was small.  The scores on the applicants however, were different and statistically significant.  Regardless of the assessor being a man or a woman, the applicant scored better when the name was a man's name, across the board.  The applicant, with a man's name, was considered more hireable, more mentorable, and more comptent.  Both male and female assessors also offered the man a higher wage.

 

Now we can't say WHY this may be the case, and more research is almost always useful.  But it does give an interesting "Huh!"  It also lends the idea that perhaps even women internalize some of the expectation discrepancies.  This tells me that there may be a a more systemic bias that affects people subconsciously, causing them to rate an applicant different based on their expectations on gender.  So I do hesitate to say that it's discrimination outright if a trans* person were preferred to depict a trans* person in a show.  There may be systemic biases that cause us to THINK that a person is better qualified than someone else, when perhaps that technically isn't true.  I do believe that objectivity is not an easy thing to have as a human being.


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#3
Allan Schumacher

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As for the OP, more specifically, this came up at PAX Prime during the LGBTQ panel.  Including looking at species (in fantasy or scifi) that don't have the concept of gender, but also recognizing that even in our world there are cultures that have more that two genders.

 

I think it'd be interesting.  I admit my own failings as I'm not too clear on the topic so I can't contribute much more than that, but I know it has come up.  It's also interesting, because there's a suit of armor character in Planescape: Torment, but I always referred to them as a "he."  I'm curious if that's actually the case or not.  I do believe the character has a history, if I remember correctly, so it may not be just an assumption on my part but actually be because the spirit lingering in the armor was a man's.



#4
Allan Schumacher

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But that doesn't really sound feasible to be quite frank. And to me I answered your question, no debate or rationalization involved.

 

Why does it not sound feasible?  My assumption is that there'd be an innate resistance to accepting a situation where there isn't a gender binary establishment.  (The concept is unfamiliar to myself, as well, so I'd be concerned about my own ability to relate)



#5
Allan Schumacher

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Cant see how you could invent a new gender withe anyone going "thats just an analogue of this gender", unlike invented races, religions, or cultures which have more ambiguity and room to debate. Because, as the others posted brought up, it'd be better to have evil characters only be capable of antagonizing a made up gender in their full evil play through then allow them to target actual irl genders.

I dont think anyone would be unable to understand someone without a gender we get. But at the same time, there are so many gender identities irl and gender identity is such a specific trait, that I'd be hard to make an analogue that doesn't fit any of them.

 

I think that that is fair and I agree that it'd probably come across as pretty alien.  I think it'd also be hard to execute because it'd be alien.  I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do it.

 

At the same time though, it may just be alien simply because no one has really tried (or at the very least, been successful at it)?



#6
Allan Schumacher

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Yet, Shepard frequently refers to Legion as 'he', presumably because the voice Legion used to speak with sounded masculine. So, I'd appreciate avoiding that by having the companion either state a preference or something to that effect.

 

I wonder if this was a symptom of how some of us were taught to write.  I know I was taught to use "he" as gender neutral (I've since started to use "them" more, despite my teachers insistence on docking my marks for doing so), and I think David also echoed something similar in a thread where the discussion came up.

 

In this sense it also complicates gender neutrality, since for some people the gender neutral term is the same word as the male gender term.

 

 

:ph34r: 'd by Stormrunner


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#7
Allan Schumacher

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No, what I personally would say is not dependent on another person, what I do say however is. 

 

If you were to insist on referring to yourself as a particular gender, and I decide to come around and - despite knowing your preference - refer to you as different gender, we start to cross into a very uncomfortable and disrespectful arena.


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#8
Allan Schumacher

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What do you mean? There are only two biological genders in the human species.

 

Gender identification, and biological sex, are two different things actually.  And some cultures see more than just "male" and "female" in terms of gender identification.

 

Someone a bit more familiar with the topic, however, can hopefully give a more though response.


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