129 réponses à ce sujet

[Androme]

but also recognizing that even in our world there are cultures that have more that two genders.

 

What do you mean? There are only two biological genders in the human species.

[Allan Schumacher]

What do you mean? There are only two biological genders in the human species.

 

Gender identification, and biological sex, are two different things actually.  And some cultures see more than just "male" and "female" in terms of gender identification.

 

Someone a bit more familiar with the topic, however, can hopefully give a more though response.

[KainD]

If you were to insist on referring to yourself as a particular gender, and I decide to come around and - despite knowing your preference - refer to you as different gender, we start to cross into a very uncomfortable and disrespectful arena.

 

I personally don't care about pronouns that much, I was just trained to react to a certain one. But that's why I said that what I go and say to other people might vary from what I personally believe, I just respect their preference and personally I don't care what to call them as long as they react properly when I talk to them. 

[KainD]

What do you mean? There are only two biological genders in the human species.

 

Gender is not biological. 

[Androme]

Gender identification, and biological sex, are two different things actually.  And some cultures see more than just "male" and "female" in terms of gender identification.

 

Someone a bit more familiar with the topic, however, can hopefully give a more though response.

 

Gender ''identification''? Last time I checked, Gender and Sex were two words for the same thing. Has the terms been hijacked or something? I think (hope) it's fairly obvious to everyone that there are only two genders/biological sex or whatever people would like to call it.

[KainD]

I think (hope) it's fairly obvious to everyone that there are only two genders/biological sex or whatever people would like to call it.

 

What do you call a person born without genitals or a person was born with both sets ( hermaphrodite )? 

[Androme]

What do you call a person born without genitals or a person was born with both sets ( hermaphrodite )? 

 

English is not my first language just so you know. But humans are not a hermaphrodite species, so if a human is born as ''hermaphrodite'', they are usually sterile, or reproduction becomes dangerous. Besides, either the male or female ''side'' of them will be the dominant one, despite either having poor reproduction or being sterile, so they can be assigned to either of the two sexes confidently.

[KainD]

English is not my first language just so you know. But humans are not a hermaphrodite species so if a humans born as ''hermaphrodites'' are either usually sterile or reproduction is dangerous for them.

 

And what does that have to do with my question? 

 

they can be assigned to either of the two sexes confidently.

 

Not really.

[Solas]

Depends on what you think. 

the only thing it depends on is how she feels and identifies. trans* peoples genders arent changed by what others think or percieve. source: every trans* person ever

[Killdren88]

Think this thread took a strange turn. I think what the OP just means a spiritual entity that cannot be identified by mortal definition. It can't take a form that we would recognize by our definitions so just assumes control of a suit of armor.

[KainD]

the only thing it depends on is how she feels and identifies. trans* peoples genders arent changed by what others think or percieve. source: every trans* person ever

 

Gender is a social construct not a personal one. The construct is pretty subjective and is left open to opinions, so no. Like I said, I respect other people and can call them whatever they want me to call them, that doesn't change my own personal opinion, like mine doesn't change theirs. 

[Solas]

gender roles are a social construct. gender identity is personal. my gender ID is separate from and not changed by your "opinion of what my gender is"

 

maevaris's gender "woman" is not changed say if varric thought otherwise

[KainD]

gender roles are a social construct. gender identity is personal. my gender ID is separate from and not changed by your "opinion of what my gender is"

 

Gender identity has direct ties to gender roles. 

[Kidd]

Gender ''identification''? Last time I checked, Gender and Sex were two words for the same thing. Has the terms been hijacked or something? I think (hope) it's fairly obvious to everyone that there are only two genders/biological sex or whatever people would like to call it.

I believe they may originally have been the same thing, but we've nuanced the language since then to be able to identify more kinds of people and ideas.
 
 

English is not my first language just so you know. But humans are not a hermaphrodite species, so if a human is born as ''hermaphrodite'', they are usually sterile, or reproduction becomes dangerous. Besides, either the male or female ''side'' of them will be the dominant one, despite either having poor reproduction or being sterile, so they can be assigned to either of the two sexes confidently.

If said hermaphrodite is sterile, does that mean they do not have an identity? I'm sterile, does that mean I do not have an identity? I believe you understand that line of reasoning does not work.

There is also absolutely no reason to believe a person born in an intersex condition (as it is called when the primary and secondary sex characteristics do not align in the typical patterns we call male-sexed and female-sexed) corresponds more closely to one sex than the other. There could be a perfect split. Ultimately it should be up to the person themselves to define what they are and whether they want medical help to change their bodies into a shape they feel more comfortable in.

Now, the intersexed person may feel they're happy as they are and choose not to be defined as male or female. That is perfectly all right, and it means they are not male- or female-gendered. Perhaps both, none or a third gender would fit them better? It is up to them to decide. Or perhaps they feel they are male-gendered and want to be respected and referred to as such, but do not feel the need to get any kind of surgery. Or perhaps they want surgery. It's all very individual, and it's disrespectful to define somebody else against their will.

If you want to read more, I went through some terms here.

It may be interesting to note that the more we uncover when it comes to science, the more we realise that defining gender and sex alike is incredibly difficult. So far we have not found any one single characteristic to define sex by. What we know is that the simple model of male/female most western cultures rely on is not at all an accurate portrayal of reality.

Gender identity has direct ties to gender roles.

Not necessarily.

[Solas]

think we are gonna have to agree to disagree kain pls feel free to pm me. I dont to derail more

[Warden Inquisitor]

I do not care if we got a spirit or demon companion. Personally I would find it incredibly annoying to include a a transgendered character just for the sake of having one. 

[KainD]

Not necessarily.

 

We've talked about this. 

Imo in a perfect society gender doesn't exist, and everyone are just who they are and don't need any labels. 

[CronoDragoon]

I do not care if we got a spirit or demon companion. Personally I would find it incredibly annoying to include a a transgendered character just for the sake of having one. 

 

I don't think many people want a transgendered person just to do it: if it isn't done well it can be more insulting than satisfying. But what if there is a good character story to be told - or better - a good character story and the character just happened to be transgender? Would people inevitably still think they did it "just to include a transgender companion" or would they give it a fair shot? I ask this because until transgender characters become commonplace, it's going to - at the start - seem like doing it for the sake of doing it for some people.

 

Obviously the ideal is to get to the point where a transgender character can be in the party and no one blinks an eye, because their story isn't about being transgender. That's what makes characters like Steve and Samantha good characters. Steve's story is about the loss of a loved one, and oh it just happens to be a husband. His story isn't about what it's like to be gay in the ME universe, for example.

[Killdren88]

@ Crono Dragon

 

Considering Mass Effect is over two-hundred years in the future, yeah.The prejudice has been dead for that length of time. Plus thanks to aliens, humans stopped with the intolerance within our race and projected on aliens. An improvement among humans, but not so much as a whole since we just shifted the intolerance on another source.

[Dobyk]

Gender identification, and biological sex, are two different things actually.  And some cultures see more than just "male" and "female" in terms of gender identification.

 

Someone a bit more familiar with the topic, however, can hopefully give a more though response.

A brilliant example I can give on top of my head are the fa'afafine, the "third gender" in Samoa. They are praised for exhibiting both masculine and feminine qualities, although they are, technically, transgender. Their role in Samoan society, however, is unique. I even read that when a man is to lose his virginity, sometimes it is preferable to do so with a fa'afafine, before venturing into a relationship with a woman(although how widespread this practice is I didn't gather). The Fa'afafine are also very dedicated to family and familial duty. A very interesting case that can point to cultural views on sexuality and gender roles. Look them up, it's interesting

[MrMrPendragon]

Like I said before, wisp or sylvans.

Those are the only two beings I can think of where no one can even consider that the being is either male or female.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Gender ''identification''? Last time I checked, Gender and Sex were two words for the same thing. Has the terms been hijacked or something? I think (hope) it's fairly obvious to everyone that there are only two genders/biological sex or whatever people would like to call it.

 

The term hasn't been hijacked no. Sex is biological and gender is social.

 

Sex refers to the biological sex traits one possesses. Based on these primary and secondary sex characteristics we call people men and women and they get bombared by the relevant gender roles and norms these body parts box them into.

 

Gender is the way in which we socially code EVERYTHING in relation to these two sets of characteristics. If you have a vagina and breasts you are told to act and dress a certain way. If you have a penis you are told to act and dress a certain way. Differing from this is often met by shame, scorn, and alienation from ones peers even in the earliest years. This helps to keep people from going too 'far' outside their assigned gender roles. Identifying then as outside of the gender binary is to say that you connect with both sets of genders or perhaps neither or the opposite one from which your body was supposed to identify you as. Many trans* people use the phrases Male assigned at birth and female assigned at birth in order to distinguish between what they were told they were and what they know they are.

 

Again, if I'm messing up my explanations or falling into pitfalls based on my knowledge gaps or biases please feel free to correct me!

 

Also, looking back at the OP: the first post does say gender neutral but then it defines gender neutral as someone who identifies as neither a man or a woman. Many trans* people id outside of this gender binary (agender, third gender, gender fluid etc), so I interpreted that as gender 'neutral' not being the proper wording for what the OP wanted to discuss(instead, companions outside the gender binary).  the OP also brought up the only trans* woman Dragon Age has. She was misidentified as being of neither gender when she does identify as a woman, but she was mentioned. So though the thread title is gender neutral, the OP seemed to open itself up for multiple discussions.

[Cainhurst Crow]

A brilliant example I can give on top of my head are the fa'afafine, the "third gender" in Samoa. They are praised for exhibiting both masculine and feminine qualities, although they are, technically, transgender. Their role in Samoan society, however, is unique. I even read that when a man is to lose his virginity, sometimes it is preferable to do so with a fa'afafine, before venturing into a relationship with a woman(although how widespread this practice is I didn't gather). The Fa'afafine are also very dedicated to family and familial duty. A very interesting case that can point to cultural views on sexuality and gender roles. Look them up, it's interesting

 

In hawaii, fa'afafine is a semi-derogatory term that implies girly or crossdessing for men. Odd thing is there's no ethnic, cultural, or even sexual connotations, and its used more as a catch all term insult, similar to how the f-g-word on the internet doesn't actually connotative homosexual conduct, but in general annoying behavior. People jokingly call each other fa'afafine to rag on one another, but its also able to be used as a fighting words, mainly because in hawaii it doesn't matter to a lot of folks if you use "offensive" words, but more the tone in which you use them.

 

Just thought I'd give some breakdown from my experience growing up in hawaii, and why reading that post had me rolling on the floor laughing. No offense meant, as this is an actual mentality and usage of the word in hawaii.

[DRTJR]

Shale, Justice, and Cole(possibly) spring to mind. as two of those are fade spirits and the other is a Golem. they're all pretty gender neutral.

[ReallyRue]

I'd be very interested in a character like this, I adored Shale and Justice's unique perspectives (and Legion's in ME).

 

A trans character would also be welcome, preferably where their personal story arc isn't about that. Where it's part of them but not their angst issue, just accepted as it is. I haven't read the comic Maevaris is in, but I'd be happy to see her in a future game.