1407 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

I haven't read the comics but I'm pretty sure Gregoir was hitting a female mage that was pregnant, is it true? And if it is, how can one even suppose that the Circle is "a family" when things like beating up pregnant women or raping mages are normal?

 
You and I must possess very different definitions of normal. I don't consider outliers and extremes of the spectrum to be normal, but if you then hey, that's your choice.
 

Read the book. It is clear you are not allowed a family. There are no communal families. Furthermore if you want to be part of a communal family fine, but if you don't you shouldn't be forced into one.

Where does it say that mages are forbidden from forming social bounds with on another? Where does it say that mages can't mentor one another? Where does it say mages can't spend time with one another or socialize? Where does it say mages are isolated from other mages to prevent forming any sort of connection to the point everyone in the circle is a "bunch of strangers" to one another?

 

More to the point, since I'm on this subject, what makes a nuclear family structure in the circle so much better? What prevents parents from showing their children special or preferable treatment more so then their peers? What guarantees these two mages will do a better job raising a kid in the circle better then the folks who have helped foster children for many years now and has much more experience in that field? Paternal instincts only carry you so far when raising children, at one point you need people what they're doing to step in. Not unless your raising them to preform menial tasks, at some point they're going to need an education beyond what the parents can offer, unless we're talking about two enchanters shacking up for a kid, and even that's a stretch. 

 

The only way I see this working is if the circles no longer exists, and that ain't gonna happen.

[MisterJB]

Yes, I have read Lovecraft. And I maintain that old gods have as much right to exist as humans.

 

Not being a totally putrid racist also goes against everything Lovecraft wrote. What's your point?

Well, for starters, your belief that something like Azatoth who, if it so much as open its eyes for a second, will make the universe implode, is, in any way or manner, on the same level of humans to the point where we could even begin to discuss whether it and us have the same rights is laughable.

[Mockingword]

Where does it say that mages are forbidden from forming social bounds with on another? Where does it say that mages can't mentor one another? Where does it say mages can't spend time with one another or socialize? Where does it say mages are isolated from other mages to prevent forming any sort of connection to the point everyone in the circle is a "bunch of strangers" to one another?

It says it in the fact that any people you grow close to can be murdered tomorrow for literally any reason.

[Mockingword]

Well, for starters, your belief that something like Azatoth who, if it so much as open its eyes for a second, will make the universe implode, is, in any way or manner, on the same level of humans to the point where we could even begin to discuss whether it and us have the same rights is laughable.

It's a living creature, isn't it?

[Cobra's_back]

 
You and I must possess very different definitions of normal. I don't consider outliers and extremes of the spectrum to be normal, but if you then hey, that's your choice.


Where does it say that mages are forbidden from forming social bounds with on another? Where does it say that mages can't mentor one another? Where does it say mages can't spend time with one another or socialize? Where does it say mages are isolated from other mages to prevent forming any sort of connection to the point everyone in the circle is a "bunch of strangers" to one another?

 

Read the book Asunder. Did you? Do you think Wynne wanted to give up her baby? Again, your idea of a family is not everyone's idea. I wouldn't want someone taking my kids away. If I want to get married that is my choice not your. That is the point here. Everyone should be able to decide for themselves. We don't need Plato to tell us what to do. If you want that for yourself that is your deal not mine.

[Cobra's_back]

It says it in the fact that any people you grow close to can be murdered tomorrow for literally any reason.

 

It also states that your baby belongs to the Chantry and will be taken away.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It says it in the fact that any people you grow close to can be murdered tomorrow for literally any reason.

 

Again with the hyperbole instead of actually using facts. There are rules for what the templars can and can't do, of which most follow. Tranquility can't be preformed on harrowed mages, for example. Permission must be given by the senior enchanter to preform said tranqulization for another. The right of annulment requiring approval from the outside chantry for yet another rule. And more then likely many, many, more codes of conduct, of which includes the right for mages to leave the tower and pursue their own endeavors if they're authorized to do so. In which they can find work, get married, and even, shock of all shocks, have children and raise a family.

 

That's outside the circle of course, inside the circle its' important that no one be shown preferential treatment at a young age over the other students for simple hereditary reasons. I would imagine the jealously that could cause would be a very strong source of concern, seeing as jealously leads to temptation and desire, and inevitably, a higher risk of possession.

[Vasyl]

After reading through this thread I learned a few things.

 

1 Many people don't know how to type or have english as a second language.

 

2 Someone refuses to see that most mages who turn to demons or blood magic do so during desperate situations.

 

3 No one seems to realise we don't know who or what caused the explosion that killed thousands, creates the breach, and gives our inquisitor his/her unique powers

 

4 even if we killed all the mages there is still Lyrium, which is magic in a physical form (I guess). This would also be problem and my favorite dwarf, Sandel, turned an ogre into an frozen statue using 'not enchantment' and last I checked dwarves weren't mages.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

4 even if we killed all the mages there is still Lyrium, which is magic in a physical form (I guess). This would also be problem and my favorite dwarf, Sandel, turned an ogre into an frozen statue using 'not enchantment' and last I checked dwarves weren't mages.

 

 

Sandal's unique There's been a rumor that his mother was actually an elven/human mage.

[Cobra's_back]

Again with the hyperbole instead of actually using facts. There are rules for what the templars can and can't do, of which most follow. Tranquility can't be preformed on harrowed mages, for example. Permission must be given by the senior enchanter to preform said tranqulization for another. The right of annulment requiring approval from the outside chantry for yet another rule. And more then likely many, many, more codes of conduct, of which includes the right for mages to leave the tower and pursue their own endeavors if they're authorized to do so. In which they can find work, get married, and even, shock of all shocks, have children and raise a family.

 

That's outside the circle of course, inside the circle its' important that no one be shown preferential treatment at a young age over the other students for simple hereditary reasons. I would imagine the jealously that could cause would be a very strong source of concern, seeing as jealously leads to temptation and desire, and inevitably, a higher risk of possession.

 

There is not just one solution to the problem. A war has started. Two end it peacefully both sides need to win something. Mages do not want to live in a tower. I don't blame them. They can live free in a gated community. They can work for a living and have some privacy if that will make them happy. The Templars can guard the community to see if any problems come up. The current system is a prison and this is what the mages are complaining about.

[MisterJB]

Thrask's daughter was deceived and sold into slavery and backed into a corner - which I previously stated tends to be when a mage welcomes a demon's possession, rather than as a matter of course. She was also hidden from the Circle by Thrask because he knew what it was like there. Hence, had the Circle not been so oppressive she would have been there. Or at home, whittling wood, or out at the market buying bread and cheese. She was opened up to being vulnerable because she was trying to flee. She wasn't free in her society. If she was, she'd have been out and about doing whatever she chose to do with herself. Not that she wouldn't ever find herself in a dangerous predicament but that particular secnario came about because the risky attempt at flight was a better alternative to being locked away. Had there been a better system in place, I doubt that would have been the case.

Or maybe, had her father been more sensible, she would have been in the Circle, safe from any pirates and the other dangers of Thedas which will target people regardless of how "free" a society is; heck, just a mage being furious might be enough to make it a perfect vessel for a Rage Demon. Lack of control of one's emotions are what creates Abominations and there is simply no way to ensure that every mage has absolute perfect control. Abominations are a certainty, what remains is to be known whether they will ocurr in a tower, miles away from civilization with steel doors and an army of Templars between it and innocent people or in the middle of the market square.

 

It is erroeous to automatically assume that the nature of the system is to blame for the mistakes of people; Thrask couldn't even tell his co-conspirator was an Abomination; he has no credibility to decide what is or is not too strict.

 

 

What is it about arguing for more freedoms and a better way that automatically makes people think normal folks would be exposed to magic? Having a better system includes laws by which society is governed. People with a license to carry a gun still have laws to abide by. They're not just waving a pistol in their hand as a matter of every day interaction. Similarly with mages, restrictions on using magic in public and prohibitions from using magic in their profession unless it is a magical profession like potion making, could be established. Having templars on the streets, like cops, to be on hand in case there is a magical altercation and having registration lists and travel papers are all forms of keeping an eye on the "mage threat" that doesn't involve locking them away. And closely resembles our society today. Denying mages basic rights because of what they might do is wrong.

It is necessary if normal people are to be safe and independent.

We have already tried to regulate the use of magic outside of the Circles. It lead to mages protesting and a compromise being reached, the Circle. Now they're rebelling again; which makes any agreements with them shaky from the very beginning since they seem to be unable to be trusted to mantain their word.

What exactly makes you think that mages will acept to restrict their magic, especially when it comes with so much potential to politically and economically dominate society?

 

And Templars are already on the streets. Every major city; Denerim, Lothering, Kirkwall, Amaranthine, etc; has a Chantry which serves as a Templar outpost. It's not good enough because if they hear of a mage child coming into his power in some little town two days away on horseback, the worst that can happen in that period of time; barring demonic possession; is that the kid's parents have fled. If, on the other hand, they heard of an Abomination in that same town, in two days it will be gone and the monster will have moved to another one to do the same.

Our world today has ways of responding to threats that do not exist in Thedas.

 

 

Olivia's slavers are the real criminals and ending such piracy is what should be focused on, not blaming a mage for trying to protect herself. Which, again, wouldn't have been the case if she wasn't trying to sneak passage on a boat out of Kirkwall. Making thieves and punishing them, right there...

They are both a threat and thus we create distinct police corps to deal with both rather than ignore one.

 

 

[Vasyl]

 

Sandal's unique There's been a rumor that his mother was actually an elven/human mage.

 

True but we don't know if being only 'half-dawrf' is enough to allow a dawrf access to magic.

[Cainhurst Crow]

There is not just one solution to the problem. A war has started. Two end it peacefully both sides need to win something. Mages do not want to live in a tower. I don't blame them. They can live free in a gated community. They can work for a living and have some privacy if that will make them happy. The Templars can guard the community to see if any problems come up. The current system is a prison and this is what the mages are complaining about.

Current system could use improvement, I'll agree there. However, the degree of improvement must also be balance with the risk possessed be including new forms of social status within the circles, and means of mitigating temptations and possible sources of artificial discountenance(possible spelling error) within said community. For example, the reason I don't have a problem with raising the children communally is because it cuts down on the risk of preferential treatment they might receive from their parents, because the old adage blood is thicker then water holds weight, which why you make it so blood and water cannot be distinguished, to ensure a fair treatment of all. Other children born outside of circles don't have to worry about this, because in the end they don't have relatives in positions of power at the circles who could get them a better deal then others. It's one reason mages are sent to other circles to be raised and taught.

 

If this new community can create a healthy environment for mages that doesn't inherently breed special treatment and the possibility of jealousy because of that treatment, then I wouldn't mind seeing it brought to reality in thedas.

 

And as a side note, we don't need both sides to win. Theres win-win, win-lose, lose-win, and lose-lose, involved here.

[Cobra's_back]

Again with the hyperbole instead of actually using facts. There are rules for what the templars can and can't do, of which most follow. Tranquility can't be preformed on harrowed mages, for example. Permission must be given by the senior enchanter to preform said tranqulization for another. The right of annulment requiring approval from the outside chantry for yet another rule. And more then likely many, many, more codes of conduct, of which includes the right for mages to leave the tower and pursue their own endeavors if they're authorized to do so. In which they can find work, get married, and even, shock of all shocks, have children and raise a family.

 

That's outside the circle of course, inside the circle its' important that no one be shown preferential treatment at a young age over the other students for simple hereditary reasons. I would imagine the jealously that could cause would be a very strong source of concern, seeing as jealously leads to temptation and desire, and inevitably, a higher risk of possession.

 

You didn't read the book "Asunder" did you? Try reading it and then tell us the rules. The book clearly paints a different picture.

[MisterJB]

You didn't read the book "Asunder" did you? Try reading it and then tell us the rules. The book clearly paints a different picture.

This being the same book where, after the mages made some noise, Lord Seeker Lambert released a suspect in an ongoing investigation?

[Cobra's_back]

Current system could use improvement, I'll agree there. However, the degree of improvement must also be balance with the risk possessed be including new forms of social status within the circles, and means of mitigating temptations and possible sources of artificial discountenance(possible spelling error) within said community. For example, the reason I don't have a problem with raising the children communally is because it cuts down on the risk of preferential treatment they might receive from their parents, because the old adage blood is thicker then water holds weight, which why you make it so blood and water cannot be distinguished, to ensure a fair treatment of all. Other children born outside of circles don't have to worry about this, because in the end they don't have relatives in positions of power at the circles who could get them a better deal then others. It's one reason mages are sent to other circles to be raised and taught.

 

If this new community can create a healthy environment for mages that doesn't inherently breed special treatment and the possibility of jealousy because of that treatment, then I wouldn't mind seeing it brought to reality in thedas.

 

And as a side note, we don't need both sides to win. Theres win-win, win-lose, lose-win, and lose-lose, involved here.

 

If they don't give them freedom, I'll side with the mages. I don't have a problem with policing. I do have a problem with the circle and taking someone's choice away from them.

[Cainhurst Crow]

You didn't read the book "Asunder" did you? Try reading it and then tell us the rules. The book clearly paints a different picture.

 
Well then why don';t I just use the tevinter imperium and slavers as the main comparison to what all mages are like? You use the worst examples of what templars are like, it's only fair the worst examples of mages get used right back. Also Asunder is a bad example to use, given it shows templars stand up to their commanding officer when they are out of line, and portrays the leadership of the mages as willing to commit murder and frame it on their fellow community leaders just to gain power in the circle, as well as showing the supposed bad guy of the book showing restraint and reasoning when dealing with rhys and a willingess to see justice done over simply lopping his head off and calling it a day.

If they don't give them freedom, I'll side with the mages. I don't have a problem with policing. I do have a problem with the circle and taking someone's choice away from them.

All laws are designed to remove choice. That's why laws are worded the way they are, they forbid you from being allowed to do something, and outline the punishment for when you make the choice to do the thing they told you not too do.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

It was the Lambert who decided to take the Seekers and Templars away from the Chantry for merely publically stating that the Chantry wants to protect the mages.

It's also the Lambert who tried to violently take over the mage summit they were conducting.

Oh well. Lambert is really pretty saint

[Cobra's_back]

This being the same book where, after the mages made some noise, Lord Seeker Lambert released a suspect in an ongoing investigation?

 

He didn't release him because of the mages. He released him because Wynne had a signed order from the Divine. Wynne forced Lord Seeker. Yes this is the book that states mages could be put in prison no food or water without proof. It is not a fun place to live.

[MisterJB]

It was the Lambert who decided to take the Seekers and Templars away from the Chantry for merely publically stating that the Chantry wants to protect the mages.

It's also the Lambert who tried to violently take over the mage summit they were conducting.

Oh well. Lambert is really pretty saint

First, Lambert decided to take the Seekers and Templars away from the Chantry because the Divine sent her agents to murder his people in an effort to prevent him from conducting his duties.

 

Second, Fiona had hijacked the summit. Therefore, it became illegal at that very moment.

[MisterJB]

He didn't release him because of the mages. He released him because Wynne had a signed order from the Divine. Wynne forced Lord Seeker. Yes this is the book that states mages could be put in prison no food or water without proof. It is not a fun place to live.

So, he obeyed the Divine and thus followed the rules which you were claiming he didn't.

And if you had an inmate go to the basement when he is supposed to be in his quarters and start firing a gun down there, you'd be against imprisioning him?

[Cainhurst Crow]

It was the Lambert who decided to take the Seekers and Templars away from the Chantry for merely publically stating that the Chantry wants to protect the mages.
It's also the Lambert who tried to violently take over the mage summit they were conducting.
Oh well. Lambert is really pretty saint

I've called lambert a shithead, a incompetent fool, a bumbling dunderhead, and all sorts of names due to his actions with the mages. But what I will say is he wasn't trying to take over the summit at all. Adrian had killed the cured tranquil elf, and framed it on rhys to try and coerce him into siding with them. Lambert was trying to take him in for questioning, and the whole situation spiraled out of control from there. The reason I use the terms above is because had he waited, this whole mess could have been avoided, but hey, that's fate.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

First, Lambert decided to take the Seekers and Templars away from the Chantry because the Divine sent her agents to murder his people in an effort to prevent him from conducting his duties.

 

Second, Fiona had hijacked the summit. Therefore, it became illegal at that very moment.

 

...what?

We have obviously read different books.

[Vasyl]

...what?

We have obviously read different books.

either way the books can't be considered canon in the game until the game is out.

[Cobra's_back]

Well then why don';t I just use the tevinter imperium and slavers as the main comparison to what all mages are like? You use the worst examples of what templars are like, it's only fair the worst examples of mages get used right back.

 

Social norms in Tevinter dictates what happen there. I don't think we have all the same social norms in this region. The variables are different. teventer is an older society, and their economy will go south if they didn't have slaves. As far as I'm concern anyone with a brain wouldn't want to follow that model.

 

Therefore, the Mages, Temples and the Chantry should sit down and come up with something better.

 

As for me throwing the worst, I don't think so. Asunder's tower is in the same cultural area. These people share the same social norms.