1407 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes he spent time with the warriors there... warriors that Fenris was able to kill by himself. So to recap a Tevinter designed weapon was able to single handily kill all the warriors... I don't think I have to explain what that means.  Fenris is a very emotional guy when it comes to Tevinter so he has some wishful thinking.

 

Wrong. The Tevinter lost Par Vollen but they never lost the territory that they have on the mainland of Thedas. You're thinking about Adraste's Exalted March that was stopped at their capital. The Qunari only took Par Vollen and land from a country that was east of Tevinter whose name escapes me at the moment. However lets pretend that the Qunari did take all that land... that means the Tevinter was able to beat them completely off every speck of land on the continent of Thedas which would prove easily that the Qunari aren't the superior military force.

 

The simply truth is both sides are evenly matched. One has a tech advantage while the other had the magic advantage and neither has been able to do anything to the other in decades.

 

You could say that he is emotional about mages but yet 98 % he is right about them so well... guy despite that whines about it all of time have many good points.

 

By 6:42 Steel: The Qunari have conquered much of the Tevinter Imperium, Rivain, and Antiva and begin to assault the Free Marches. Only Minrathous itself remains besieged but unconquered in the north

[DKJaigen]

You could say that he is emotional about mages but yet 98 % he is right about them so well... guy despite that whines about it all of time have many good points.

 

By 6:42 Steel: The Qunari have conquered much of the Tevinter Imperium, Rivain, and Antiva and begin to assault the Free Marches. Only Minrathous itself remains besieged but unconquered in the north

 

And then they got kicked out. For the record before the qunuari invaded Tevinter and the rest of Thedas where at each other throats with no less then 4 exalted marches being called on Tevinter. when the qunuari invaded both sides where in all likely hood exhausted . The Tevinters got their **** together and pushed the qunuari back single handedly from its domain. the rest of thedas failed to drive out the qunuari out of rivain.

 

That the qunuari took Serehon is no surprise, they have naval supremacy. but considering what Tevinters  have seen so far their land based army's are stronger then the qunuari's. even Gaspard and Celene acknowledged that the Tevinters are a severe threat

[RobRam10]

Wait the glorious nation that is the Imperium owned Par Vollen? I thought no one own that land except for the primitive human civilization and the fex.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And then they got kicked out. For the record before the qunuari invaded Tevinter and the rest of Thedas where at each other throats with no less then 4 exalted marches being called on Tevinter. when the qunuari invaded both sides where in all likely hood exhausted . The Tevinters got their **** together and pushed the qunuari back single handedly from its domain. the rest of thedas failed to drive out the qunuari out of rivain.

 

That the qunuari took Serehon is no surprise, they have naval supremacy. but considering what Tevinters  have seen so far their land based army's are stronger then the qunuari's. even Gaspard and Celene acknowledged that the Tevinters are a severe threat

 

Yes after 40 years and qunari fighting with every country in Thedas so pretty much they crushed tevinter but fight with everyone exhausted them that cleary shows that qunari>tevinter when they crushed it when fighting with everyone so well...

 

So pretty much if tevinter went against it would be end for tevinter thats why they didn't do that...

[DKJaigen]

Yes after 40 years and qunari fighting with every country in Thedas so pretty much they crushed tevinter but fight with everyone exhausted them that cleary shows that qunari>tevinter when they crushed it when fighting with everyone so well...

 

So pretty much if tevinter went against it would be end for tevinter thats why they didn't do that...

 

unlikely. the qunuari practice both a planned economy and a breeding program to produce more soldiers. war of attrition therefore have little to no affect. You either kick the qunuari out of your territory or you dont.

[TheKomandorShepard]

unlikely. the qunuari practice both a planned economy and a breeding program to produce more soldiers. war of attrition therefore have little to no affect. You either kick the qunuari out of your territory or you dont.

Well qunari spread their forces on entire thedas not only tevinter still they crushed them fighting at least with antiva and rivain at the same time then they went for free marches still qunari lost after everyone went against them so tevinter fate in such case would be poor if entire thedas went against them and considering their reputation among rest of thedas they would.

[Black Jimmy]

They do, but the situation is handled so poorly by there minders that half the blame can easily be shifted to the Templars or even the Chantry.

 

The constantly feel of oppression likely pushes some to do what they usually wouldn't otherwise.

 

Kinda hoping I can dissolve the Templars and take there old role for the Inquisition with some alterations to the entire things so as to not have the mages feel like they're prisoners.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait the glorious nation that is the Imperium owned Par Vollen? I thought no one own that land except for the primitive human civilization and the fex.

Tevinter didn't own Par Vollen. Par Vollen was an independent nation. I am guessing the posters are mistaking Seheron for Par Vollen.

[MisterJB]

 

That is not a reason to put the guy in prison.

Answer not true. That is not what he was charged with. He was charged with being a murder suspect and they had no proof. You wrote generalizations but did not write the actual charge. You can’t put someone in jail because tensions are high. They didn’t care about the people murdered. They wanted names of blood mages. They had nothing on him. They were going to let him die of dehydration and they didn’t have the evidence for murders. Remember all the murders already happen. All were stabbed with daggers. The Lord Seeker wanted names to tie more blood mages with the attempted assassination of the Divine.

Tell you what: you call the prime minister of wherever it is you live and tell him there's going to be an attempt on his life. Then, walk into a reserved area of the Assembly or the House of Lords or whatever, deliberately mislead the guards, start firing a gun and when the security comes along and asks you what the **** you thing you're doing, answer "You wouldn't believe me anyway."

 

Then tell me if you don't end up spending a few days in a white room with no windows.

 

 

 

If you didn’t catch this Lord Seeker was the villain.

 

From your perspective, perhaps. I can think of a few characters who deserved the moniker far more.

[Lord Raijin]

That doesn't change the fact that if mages did not exist none of those things would have happened. 

 

If you consider how many people have died as the result of magic and the blights I think the death count in Thedas would actually be significantly lower if every mage had been killed the second they showed any signs of powers. Not that I'm arguing that they should, but it's still a pretty good indication of why giving mages complete freedom is an unrealistic pipe dream. 

 

I hope you're not being serious over here, are you? You must be pulling my leg.

 

Loghain Mac Tir (none mage) betrayed his entire country by walking out during an active battle, and left his King and his people (Including a Grey warden commander) to die at the hands of the Darkspawn. Look how many people had died in Ostagar because of what Loghain did. He framed the Grey wardens for the death of King Cailan Theirin. He along his puppy dog: Rendon Howe hired group of assassins to murder the 2 surviving gray wardens, and had they succeed in murdering them the archdemon would've been untouchable since it requires a grey warden to sacrifice themselves by successfully slay the tainted dragon.

 

Should I also mention Knight-Commander Martel and Knight-Commander Meredith? What about the events that happen in the novel: The Stolen throne? None mages causes far more fatalities than mages due to greed and lust desire for power. Oh and lets not forget the Templar order. They slaughter people and elves for having different belief system. Anyone who doesn't believe in the maker is a heretic and must die. 

[Cobra's_back]

Tell you what: you call the prime minister of wherever it is you live and tell him there's going to be an attempt on his life. Then, walk into a reserved area of the Assembly or the House of Lords or whatever, deliberately mislead the guards, start firing a gun and when the security comes along and asks you what the **** you thing you're doing, answer "You wouldn't believe me anyway."

 

Then tell me if you don't end up spending a few days in a white room with no windows.

 

 

Nonsense. They didn't have the man at the correct time. Even in Dragon Age they need something to connect the person. Example: Captain Garevel tells you that you don't have enough evidence to charge the Ox with murder. You can place the Ox at the right place covered in blood and Ser Tamra's body is still warm. You execute him you may look like a tyrant. You can imprison him until the "Brewing Conspiracy" is over. This does not mean you are going to slowly kill him by denying him water/food.

 

Rhy was not caught at the time of any murder. There wasn't any warm bodies. They only have the location. Consider the fact that Templars are also in the area as well as other mages there is nothing to directly connect him to the murders. Secondly, an most importantly they did deny him water/food for the entire 4 days. If Wynne didn't rescue him he would have died.

 

 

 

 

From your perspective, perhaps. I can think of a few characters who deserved the moniker far more.

 

The author gives you enough hints about this guy being the villain that it isn't even funny. Early in the book he gives Evangeline a secret mission to murder the three mages: Wynne, Rhy and miss nasty if they succeed in the task the Divine gave to Wynne. That would be considered murder and there is no excuse for that. It was a crime he did intend to do. Are there other people who deserve punishment? Yes. Rhy wasn't one of the characters that deserved death.

[Vasyl]

You can't use Fenris as an example of how evil and bad the Tevinter Imperium is. Yes they are slavers and magic is more free there, not to mention blood magic is higher use, but that doesn't mean they are evil. It's like when Loghain pulled his forces from the battle at Ostagar, he didn't see it as evil because in his mind Orlais was the bigger threat.

[Cobra's_back]

You can't use Fenris as an example of how evil and bad the Tevinter Imperium is. Yes they are slavers and magic is more free there, not to mention blood magic is higher use, but that doesn't mean they are evil. It's like when Loghain pulled his forces from the battle at Ostagar, he didn't see it as evil because in his mind Orlais was the bigger threat.

 

Agreed. Not to mention that the social norms in Tevinter are different from the other Kingdoms. Not every mage wanted to be a blood mage.

[Arachlia]

I don't know if this has been pointed out, but...

 

Killing all mages wouldn't be exactly simple deal, you know? It would take lot of resources, a lot of lives on attacker's side* and in all likelihood create more inhabitable (or at least where no one should live) places like Soldier's Peak, Blackmarsh, Alienage Orphanage, Brecilian Forest etc.  with no possible hope to fix it ... And in all likelihood some mages would still escape. How long Morrigan and Hawke-family went undetected, for example? Clever ones will always escape.

 

Not to mention that it would be inhumane, of course.

 

Mages and inhabitants of Fade are trouble, I will admit, but so is great deal of other things in Thedas. And if there weren't mages, all would be speaking Qun currently. Infact, unless we manage to get the all technical advances Qunari has (since we wouldn't get enough time develope them in our own) rest of Thedas still faces thread of conquest. Or does anyone deny that part of Chantry's sympathy for mages is knowledge of mages being pretty damn useful for warcraft/healing/etc.?

 

 

*Not everyone is Hawke/Warden.

[Dean_the_Young]

You can't use Fenris as an example of how evil and bad the Tevinter Imperium is. Yes they are slavers and magic is more free there, not to mention blood magic is higher use, but that doesn't mean they are evil. It's like when Loghain pulled his forces from the battle at Ostagar, he didn't see it as evil because in his mind Orlais was the bigger threat.

...but Loghain's perspective and self-rationalizations are only as relevant to judging them as we care for them to be.We don't have to care about them at all, especially when what was in his mind was simply wrong.

 

The fact that Loghain thought/rationalized/believed himself to be doing what was best for Ferelden is entirely inconsequential to the fact that his actions, and his decisions alone, nearly doomed it. His intent is irrelevant to the fact of his consequence, which was to abandon his king, spark a civil war, and sent troops to a distant border against an imagined threat while the darkspawn Blight was ravaging within his borders. The only place where Loghain's convictions were right and proper were his own head, not Ferelden.

 

Fenris certainly can be used as an example of how evil and bad the Tevinter Imperium can be because Fenris is an actual output of the evils and badness of Tevinter, where slavery is openly sanctioned and blood magic abuses common and an elite whose collective efforts and squabbles and abuses in the name self-interest are the stuff of not just legend, but documented historical fact. We're not talking about exceptions to the norm, deviants from the norm like Sir Alrik or Meredith to the Templars and Quinten or Anders to the mages. We're talking about well documented and verified practices of established elites who control the society. There can be 'good' magisters, however you wish to define that, without challenging the typical trends of the magister class and policies and practices thereof.

 

If you consider a warmongering, patriarchial, ubermensch-oligarchial society that practices slavery and blood sacrifice to be evil, their own perspective and rationalizations for their abuses are irrelevant.

[Dean_the_Young]

Agreed. Not to mention that the social norms in Tevinter are different from the other Kingdoms. Not every mage wanted to be a blood mage.

 

And not every slave holder grows up wanting to be a slavery- social pressures are considerable. It doesn't change that they are, in fact, slave holders, and it doesn't make slavery any less despicable a practice.

[Cobra's_back]

MisterJB, on 26 Apr 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

 

Tell you what: you call the prime minister of wherever it is you live and tell him there's going to be an attempt on his life. Then, walk into a reserved area of the Assembly or the House of Lords or whatever, deliberately mislead the guards, start firing a gun and when the security comes along and asks you what the **** you thing you're doing, answer "You wouldn't believe me anyway."

 

Then tell me if you don't end up spending a few days in a white room with no windows.

 

 

This doesn't fit Rhy's case. The Divine is not in the pit. Rhy is not caught at the ball. She is nowhere near the tower. He lives in the tower. There is no immediate threat to her since she is not in the tower.

[Cobra's_back]

And not every slave holder grows up wanting to be a slavery- social pressures are considerable. It doesn't change that they are, in fact, slave holders, and it doesn't make slavery any less despicable a practice.

 

I'm missing something where did I say slavery was good. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm missing something where did I say slavery was good. 

You didn't. Nor did you say blood magic was good. Nor did I imply you said them.

 

The argument that 'social norms are different' and 'not everyone of group 'x' wanted to be part of group 'x'' is irrelevant to considerations of whether you consider members of group 'x' to be bad. Whether it is blood magic/slavery/child molestation/military service/prank wars/any category of action, the fact that not every participant wanted to be a part of it doesn't change the fact that, well, they did participate in it. Social pressure and expectation is not a cover-all for mitigating participation in a practice.

 

That is what you are missing.

[Cobra's_back]

You didn't. Nor did you say blood magic was good. Nor did I imply you said them.

 

The argument that 'social norms are different' and 'not everyone of group 'x' wanted to be part of group 'x'' is irrelevant to considerations of whether you consider members of group 'x' to be bad. Whether it is blood magic/slavery/child molestation/military service/prank wars/any category of action, the fact that not every participant wanted to be a part of it doesn't change the fact that, well, they did participate in it. Social pressure and expectation is not a cover-all for mitigating participation in a practice.

 

That is what you are missing.

I wasn't clear. What I wanted to agree with is that they are not evil. They see things differently because of their social norms. I don't agree with blood magic or slavery. If there was a war between Tevinter and another kingdom that doesn't have slavery, I would pick the anti-slavery kingdom.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

This thread is painful. Just... painful.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wasn't clear. What I wanted to agree with is that they are not evil. They see things differently because of their social norms. I don't agree with blood magic or slavery. If there was a war between Tevinter and another kingdom that doesn't have slavery, I would pick the anti-slavery kingdom.

 

We can still call them evil even if they see things differently because of their social norms. That just means their culture is abhorrent.

 

Unless you believe in absolute relativism, you can condemn people for things you find wrong even if they feel it's good.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

If there was a war between Tevinter and another kingdom that doesn't have slavery, I would pick the anti-slavery kingdom.

 

Orlais doesn't have slavery de jure, but they do treat many as slaves de facto. I don't see how Orlais is better than Tevinter. If I was to pick a country I would gladly fight for, it would be Anderfels.

[Cobra's_back]

We can still call them evil even if they see things differently because of their social norms. That just means their culture is abhorrent.

 

Unless you believe in absolute relativism, you can condemn people for things you find wrong even if they feel it's good.

 

I understand what you are saying. I guess I was trained that I had to respect different cultures even if i didn't agree. Maybe my real problem is with the word Evil. I would agree that I would not want to support blood magic or slavery. I do find both practices disgusting.

[Vasyl]

I understand what you are saying. I guess I was trained that I had to respect different cultures even if i didn't agree. Maybe my real problem is with the word Evil. I would agree that I would not want to support blood magic or slavery. I do find both practices disgusting.

I agree with you. I find I wouldn't support blood magic or slavery, but there are cultures who do practice. It doesn't mean that such Cultures are evil, they just have different values to our own.