1407 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

Orlais doesn't have slavery de jure, but they do treat many as slaves de facto. I don't see how Orlais is better than Tevinter. If I was to pick a country I would gladly fight for, it would be Anderfels.

 

I don't like Orlais as well, but they do have anti-slavery laws which is a start in the right direction. I also agree "many as slaves de facto" the Mages are treated as slaves property of the Chantry. A practice that mages have a right to say no more. I can clearly understand why the mages want to revolt.

[DaySeeker]

We can't kill all the mages, because more will just appear.  Magic and the Veil exist and we can't just unexist it because it is difficult.  Alos, teh fade seems to be making its way across the veil with or without mage intervention, so the population needs mages to take care of that.  If the veil can be strengthened the ones who will figure it out are mages.

 

The mages can't just revolt and kill all the templars because then mages really are dangerous.

 

What needs to happen is a sort of power sharing and then deep inspection of what magic, the fade, and spirits are.  The mages need to work with the templars and governments to find a common ground where power is not being abused by one side y setting up checks and balances. 

[Cobra's_back]

We can't kill all the mages, because more will just appear.  Magic and the Veil exist and we can't just unexist it because it is difficult.  Alos, teh fade seems to be making its way across the veil with or without mage intervention, so the population needs mages to take care of that.  If the veil can be strengthened the ones who will figure it out are mages.

 

The mages can't just revolt and kill all the templars because then mages really are dangerous.

 

What needs to happen is a sort of power sharing and then deep inspection of what magic, the fade, and spirits are.  The mages need to work with the templars and governments to find a common ground where power is not being abused by one side y setting up checks and balances. 

 

Nicely said. The current system is unbalanced. I would love to find a way to negotiate with them to form a balance of power. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I understand what you are saying. I guess I was trained that I had to respect different cultures even if i didn't agree. Maybe my real problem is with the word Evil. I would agree that I would not want to support blood magic or slavery. I do find both practices disgusting.

Moral relativism is useful- tolerance of the things we find disagreeable is important in any liberal society in which 'liberal' means anything more than 'a specific sort of beliefs viewed as proper and correct.' Tolerance of dissent is not only valuable in its own moral and practical ways (reciprocal respect for divergent viewpoints allowing coexistence and cooperation between disagreeing groups), but can also be a way to wisdom and insight by understanding why people view things the way they do. For example, I am not a communist and believe many of their social remedies are practically and morally flawed, but understanding their viewpoint and concerns has allowed my own beliefs to mature and evolve.

 

Moral relativism is useful- but not absolute or unlimited. It is not a claim that you must not or can not make a judgement. It is not an argument that anything and everything is permitted. There are things worth fighting for, and worth fighting against.

 

The point is not that you can't make judgements. The point is what you will or are willing to do having made that judgement. I can find the Tevinter oligarchy evil and yet not want to commit genocide on the mage elite of Tevinter. I can find the Tevinter oligarchy evil and still do business with them on various issues. I can find the Tevinter oligarchy evil and not feel it proper or right to try and tear down their entire

[KainD]

Unless you believe in absolute relativism, you can condemn people for things you find wrong even if they feel it's good.

You can believe in absolute relativism and fight for what you personally want.

[MisterJB]

I hope you're not being serious over here, are you? You must be pulling my leg.

 

Loghain Mac Tir (none mage) betrayed his entire country by walking out during an active battle, and left his King and his people (Including a Grey warden commander) to die at the hands of the Darkspawn. Look how many people had died in Ostagar because of what Loghain did. He framed the Grey wardens for the death of King Cailan Theirin. He along his puppy dog: Rendon Howe hired group of assassins to murder the 2 surviving gray wardens, and had they succeed in murdering them the archdemon would've been untouchable since it requires a grey warden to sacrifice themselves by successfully slay the tainted dragon.

 

Should I also mention Knight-Commander Martel and Knight-Commander Meredith? What about the events that happen in the novel: The Stolen throne? None mages causes far more fatalities than mages due to greed and lust desire for power.

Do you realize that you are comparing people in completely different stratas of the social hierarchy? If you want to use the death toll caused by normal political leaders to prove their "perfidity" then you must compare with the death toll caused by mage political leaders; it's the equivalent of comparing the murders commited by Jack the Ripper with the deaths caused by the politics of the king of England.

 

And, as far as death tolls go, the mages have Tevinter which pretty much beats every other nation in Thedas.

 

 

 Oh and lets not forget the Templar order. They slaughter people and elves for having different belief system. Anyone who doesn't believe in the maker is a heretic and must die. 

I got this quote from "The World of Thedas" page 47:

 

"The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them."

 

What evidence do you have of Templars killing people for being "heretics"? I can think of one: Ser Amell and even Petrice disavowed him.

 

Oh, and then there is Brother Burkel who was killed by fellow dwarves for being an Andrastian.

[Dean_the_Young]

You can believe in absolute relativism and fight for what you personally want.

Sure. You just have no moral authority or high ground to claim.

[DaySeeker]

Do you realize that you are comparing people in completely different stratas of the social hierarchy? If you want to use the death toll caused by normal political leaders to prove their "perfidity" then you must compare with the death toll caused by mage political leaders; it's the equivalent of comparing the murders commited by Jack the Ripper with the deaths caused by the politics of the king of England.

 

And, as far as death tolls go, the mages have Tevinter which pretty much beats every other nation in Thedas.

 

 

I got this quote from "The World of Thedas" page 47:

 

"The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them."

 

What evidence do you have of Templars killing people for being "heretics"? I can think of one: Ser Amell and even Petrice disavowed him.

 

Oh, and then there is Brother Burkel who was killed by fellow dwarves for being an Andrastian.

I disagree with your reasoning.  If you are arguing the inherent morality of mages and the consequences of their power, then the amount of power does not matter, nor does it matter where that power lies.  You are arguing the destruction or enslavement of individuals, therefore the pertinent questions is how does one use the power they are given, then folks are judged by individuals and the choices they make, and not simply the circumstances of their birth.

[Hellion Rex]

 

What evidence do you have of Templars killing people for being "heretics"? I can think of one: Ser Amell and even Petrice disavowed him.

Um, Petrice tried to incite a conflict with heretical Qunari, so she's not your best example. She was right up there with Ser Varnell (not Amell)

[KainD]

You just have no moral authority or high ground to claim.

No one ever should, imo.

[DaySeeker]

These anti mage arguments are silly.  Magic exists, and plenty of good has come from it, plenty more could come from it if the mages were allowed a more stable lifestyle.  The Templars are hardly innocent, just like the mages there are some who abuse their power.  Making mages more desparate is not going to help solve the real problem of demons and Blight.  

 

Saying all the world's problems lie on mages is simplistic and wrong.  You don't kill someone because they are stronger or or smarter than others for fear that they MAY use those advantages to harm, and harassing them is a sure way to make sure that their abilities will hurt others.

[EmissaryofLies]

No one ever should, imo.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi disagrees. 

[MisterJB]

I disagree with your reasoning.  If you are arguing the inherent morality of mages and the consequences of their power, then the amount of power does not matter, nor does it matter where that power lies.  You are arguing the destruction or enslavement of individuals, therefore the pertinent questions is how does one use the power they are given, then folks are judged by individuals and the choices they make, and not simply the circumstances of their birth.

 

I am arguing neither the destruction nor the enslavement of anyone for the Circle is neither.

And I was merely pointing out the fallacy of using deaths caused by comparing people of different social strata and then using this as evidence that normals are just as dangerous as mages.

There may be little practical difference if a noble can or can not throw fireballs since their power stems, mostly, from outside forces but there is a monumental difference between what one normal eight year old boy can usually do and what Connor did to Redcliff.

And that is a fairer comparison.

[MisterJB]

Um, Petrice tried to incite a conflict with heretical Qunari, so she's not your best example. She was right up there with Ser Varnell (not Amell)

 

Varnell, right thanks.

And what Petrice did was incite civil unrest amongst her supporters, the majority of which were not Templars.

There is a difference between that and the Templars killing heretics as part of their everyday jobs.
 

[DaySeeker]

I am arguing neither the destruction nor the enslavement of anyone for the Circle is neither.

And I was merely pointing out the fallacy of using deaths caused by comparing people of different social strata and then using this as evidence that normals are just as dangerous as mages.

There may be little practical difference if a noble can or can not throw fireballs since their power stems, mostly, from outside forces but there is a monumental difference between what one normal eight year old boy can usually do and what Connor did to Redcliff.

And that is a fairer comparison.

 

Political power is power.  I don't think it matters what type of power it is.  You young lady can become baroness or queen and use her power maliciously.  Also, in playthrough, mages saved Redcliffe, Connor, and Isolde.   

[Vegeta 77]

Mages always cause trouble templars are needed to keep peace not all mages are bad. But a bad mage can more damage then a bad templar . Now look at the state of thedas thanks to a powerful mage.

[MisterJB]

Political power is power.  I don't think it matters what type of power it is.  You young lady can become baroness or queen and use her power maliciously.  Also, in playthrough, mages saved Redcliffe, Connor, and Isolde.   

Not all power is the same; some powers come with checks and balances and rely upon the compliance of others to work. Magic is not one of these hence why the Templars create the checks and balances.

And, of course, the number of normal people who hold political power is more reduced than the number of mages.

Altough I'm not entirely sure how this relates to my original point that it was unfair to compare the power wielded by Loghain or Meredith to that wielded by your average mage in the Circle and then claim that this is the norm.

It's not, it's an arbritrary and biased selection.

 

They better, that was their mess. Of course, I doubt all the Redcliff peasants who lost their loved ones will find much consolation in knowing that both Connor and Isolde survived.

[Cobra's_back]

Mages always cause trouble templars are needed to keep peace not all mages are bad. But a bad mage can more damage then a bad templar . Now look at the state of thedas thanks to a powerful mage.

 

Unless you snort red lyrium and become a flying mad Muppet old Templar lady with a sword. Meredith looked like she could do so much more and even fly with massive armor.  

[metalfenix]

Mages always cause trouble templars are needed to keep peace not all mages are bad. But a bad mage can more damage then a bad templar . Now look at the state of thedas thanks to a powerful mage.

 

Just like Meredith

[Vegeta 77]

Unless you snort red lyrium and become a flying mad Muppet old Templar lady with a sword. Meredith looked like she could do so much more and even fly with massive armor.  

Yeah i forgot about the red templars but the reds could not tear the veil.

[MisterJB]

Just like Meredith

Meredith was the Knight-Commander of the center of Templar power in the East with a weak Viscount; who was also conveniently killed; an inactive Grand Cleric and torn Veil that justified a greater need for Templars which increased her own power.

 

She is not like Anders who thought "I'm going to set this city on fire" and did or Orsino who required only a few corpses to turn into a weapon of mass destruction.

[naddaya]

Meredith was the Knight-Commander of the center of Templar power in the East with a weak Viscount; who was also conveniently killed; an inactive Grand Cleric and torn Veil that justified a greater need for Templars which increased her own power.

 

She is not like Anders who thought "I'm going to set this city on fire" and did or Orsino who required only a few corpses to turn into a weapon of mass destruction.

 

Honestly, Meredith didn't seem that bad until the end of Act 3. I was exasperated by mages too, and I was a mage

[Vegeta 77]

Just like Meredith

She was right about orsino hiding a blood mage. She was good at first but lost it. orsino was the bad guy.

[Vasyl]

Yeah i forgot about the red templars but the reds could not tear the veil.

We don't know that

[Vegeta 77]

We don't know that

Fair point.