1407 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

"Soldier's peak's problems? Caused by a mage and a veil tear. Redcliffe's problems? Caused by a mage and a veil tear. Circle Tower? Caused by a mage and a veil tear. "

 

I don't get this reasoning, yes mages are the one's with the power and they are the one's who are/can be dangerous but non of these problems were caused by mages. The problems were the consequences of peoples actions, some of whom were mages and some were not. 

 

Loghain caused the latter two incidents and the first was caused by a conflict between a king and the grey wardens. 

 

Loghain for example knew the dangers, he knew what could happen at the cirlce and he must have known about Connor because he hired his magic tutor to kill his father.  It's kind of like blaming a gun for shooting someone, obviously being irresponsible with magic is a dangerous thing to do and that goes for mages and mundanes. 

[DaySeeker]

Not all power is the same; some powers come with checks and balances and rely upon the compliance of others to work. Magic is not one of these hence why the Templars create the checks and balances.

And, of course, the number of normal people who hold political power is more reduced than the number of mages.

Altough I'm not entirely sure how this relates to my original point that it was unfair to compare the power wielded by Loghain or Meredith to that wielded by your average mage in the Circle and then claim that this is the norm.

It's not, it's an arbritrary and biased selection.

 

They better, that was their mess. Of course, I doubt all the Redcliff peasants who lost their loved ones will find much consolation in knowing that both Connor and Isolde survived.

You are grouping mages together and speaking of them as if they were all the same.  My point continues to be you must look at them as individuals.  The Templars creating checks and balances for a group they are not part of is hardly checks and balances.  We have seen all kinds of people abusing their power.  Logain and Meredith both wielded great power, but their sins are worse because those powers were entrusted to them by those they were to protect; this is unlike mages who are persecuted and then grab onto whatever they can to protect themselves.  Meredith was not a mage and still dabbled in powers beyond her which caused countless deaths- this seems a worthy comparison.

[MisterJB]

You are grouping mages together and speaking of them as if they were all the same.  My point continues to be you must look at them as individuals.  The Templars creating checks and balances for a group they are not part of is hardly checks and balances.  We have seen all kinds of people abusing their power.  Logain and Meredith both wielded great power, but their sins are worse because those powers were entrusted to them by those they were to protect; this is unlike mages who are persecuted and then grab onto whatever they can to protect themselves.  Meredith was not a mage and still dabbled in powers beyond her which caused countless deaths- this seems a worthy comparison.

 

You're missing the point. Yes, normals and mages are both capable of abusing their power. However, it is unfair to compare deaths caused by Loghain, who is a political leader with armies at his command and the support of Ferelden, to the deaths caused by a random Abomination and use this as evidence that normal people cause more deaths than mages.

Loghain should be compared to the Archon of Tevinter if a comparison is to be made at all; average Circle mages should be compared to average citizens, young boys like Connor should be compared to young normal boys. And only from that can we determine who causes more deaths and is more dangerous.

 

And mages commited tons of crimes without the purpose being "to protect themselves" not to mention that self-defense doesn't justify threatening third parties like what Orsino did.
 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Likely. Mages are considered as people of various races and nations, but possessing one common feature. It's like weeping out all albino people or all hmosexuals or something like this. Either way it's disgusting.

 

With the operative difference being that albinos or homosexuals can't throw fireballs at people who annoy them, or control minds, or a half dozen other things.

 

Comparing mages to RW minorities doesn't work, if you have to make comparisons do so with the Mutants from X-men or Psykers from 40k.

[metalfenix]

With the operative difference being that albinos or homosexuals can't throw fireballs at people who annoy them, or control minds, or a half dozen other things.

 

Comparing mages to RW minorities doesn't work, if you have to make comparisons do so with the Mutants from X-men or Psykers from 40k.

 

Offtopic, but I love your avatar. It's one of the Darths on SWTOR? I used to play it a lot a year ago.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Offtopic, but I love your avatar. It's one of the Darths on SWTOR? I used to play it a lot a year ago.

 

It's Darth Marr. Also known as "The only Sith capable of seeing past pointless dickery for the greater good".

[EmissaryofLies]

She was right about orsino hiding a blood mage. She was good at first but lost it. orsino was the bad guy.

 

You say that as if he did it with nefarious intent. 

 

He was protecting his charges. Meredith would have taken that information from Orsino and had a field day. 

 

After all, she sent for the Rite of Annulment twice. Once to that idiot Elthina then when that got turned down the Divine herself.

 

So you if you want to say that Meredith was right then so was Orsino.  She was the bad guy and we have zero evidence that she was ever good to anybody besides her templar pets during the entirety of DA II. 

 

Yes, yes, she said no to the Tranquil solution. Still doesn't change the fact that she was either ignorant or malevolent towards the mages who were made tranquil illegally. 

[Dean_the_Young]

You are grouping mages together and speaking of them as if they were all the same.  My point continues to be you must look at them as individuals. 

Mages have a unifying commonality and traits that make them a distinct group that can be collectively considered on those common traits. Those traits are magic and abominations.

 

There is no such thing as a mage who does not have magic or the risk of becoming an abomination.

 

The Templars creating checks and balances for a group they are not part of is hardly checks and balances.

 

 

That's precisely what most checks and balances are: external groups and actors with interests contrary to your own. Self-regulation, not external-regulation, is the fatal undermining of checks and balances.

 

 

We have seen all kinds of people abusing their power.  Logain and Meredith both wielded great power, but their sins are worse because those powers were entrusted to them by those they were to protect; this is unlike mages who are persecuted and then grab onto whatever they can to protect themselves.  Meredith was not a mage and still dabbled in powers beyond her which caused countless deaths- this seems a worthy comparison.

Only to mages with political power and who dabble in an equivalent substance. Loghain and Meredith can't use political power for leadership abuses without political supporters to carry them out. The only equivalent to political power is political power.

 

Political power is additive, not exclusive, with magical power. If anything, the performance and position of mages outside of Andrastian societies indicates that magic is a catalyst for gaining political power which then enables the committing of of leadership abuses.

[metalfenix]

It's Darth Marr. Also known as "The only Sith capable of seeing past pointless dickery for the greater good".

 

I knew I saw this guy, maybe it was on Makeb story arc. Dark side FTW

 

Ok, enough with the offtopic.

[Hellion Rex]

That's precisely what most checks and balances are: external groups and actors with interests contrary to your own. Self-regulation, not external-regulation, is the fatal undermining of checks and balances.

Except, in the situation we are in now, the Templar Order's control of the "checks and balances" is why the old system wasn't working out. That, and the damn Seekers need to do their damn jobs.

[MisterJB]

You say that as if he did it with nefarious intent. 

 

He was protecting his charges. Meredith would have taken that information from Orsino and had a field day.

It does bring into question the mage's willigness to police themselves.

After all, even were the Templars not present, there would always be a need to appear as innocent as a lamb to the general public.

[Dean_the_Young]

You say that as if he did it with nefarious intent. 

 

He was protecting his charges. Meredith would have taken that information from Orsino and had a field day.

 

She would have had a field day because the charge he was protecting was guilty. 

 

Orisino's job isn't to protect his charges. The First Enchanter is an advocate, not a guardian, and the worst mistake he could make in that position is to defend all mages regardless of guilt.

 

 

After all, she sent for the Rite of Annulment twice. Once to that idiot Elthina then when that got turned down the Divine herself.

 

 

Which was well after Orisino conspired to keep maleficars a secret from her. He doesn't get a retroactive defense.
 

 

So you if you want to say that Meredith was right then so was Orsino.  She was the bad guy and we have zero evidence that she was ever good to anybody besides her templar pets during the entirety of DA II. 

 

Sure we do- she helped save the city from a Qunari invasion.

 

 

Yes, yes, she said no to the Tranquil solution. Still doesn't change the fact that she was either ignorant or malevolent towards the mages who were made tranquil illegally.

 

As was Orisino, apparently.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't know if this has been pointed out, but...

 

Killing all mages wouldn't be exactly simple deal, you know? It would take lot of resources, a lot of lives on attacker's side* and in all likelihood create more inhabitable (or at least where no one should live) places like Soldier's Peak, Blackmarsh, Alienage Orphanage, Brecilian Forest etc.  with no possible hope to fix it ... And in all likelihood some mages would still escape. How long Morrigan and Hawke-family went undetected, for example? Clever ones will always escape.

 

Not to mention that it would be inhumane, of course.

 

Mages and inhabitants of Fade are trouble, I will admit, but so is great deal of other things in Thedas. And if there weren't mages, all would be speaking Qun currently. Infact, unless we manage to get the all technical advances Qunari has (since we wouldn't get enough time develope them in our own) rest of Thedas still faces thread of conquest. Or does anyone deny that part of Chantry's sympathy for mages is knowledge of mages being pretty damn useful for warcraft/healing/etc.?

 

 

*Not everyone is Hawke/Warden.

 

First mages were subjected to non-mages for 800 years because they didn't had any chance with them not even with templars alone it is clear after many times that for templars crush mages it is easy task.And not rly thedas is place with many wars and slaughters not mention blights where death count is not to compare with tiny minority killed mages so it won't tear the veil... Hell empress killed 3000 elves in that same place and everything was fine pretty much at best we have a few thousands mages in thedas.

 

And here it is easy solution most templar instead hunting mages waste time to watch caputred mages now we don't have that problem all templars will be focused on hunting mages and killing them also new-anti mage policy will solve problem sure not everyone will be captured but most well almost everyone with proper policy and anti-mages... and those who will survive will be forced to live in the wilderness.

 

Don't care it is effective (neither are circles but sadly aren't effective) and peoples did worse thing for more trivial reasons so well it is "human"e heh.

 

Mages represent most destructive troubles and unstable nukes that can lead even to end of the world just even single mage can do that... Qunari well i think if thedas wouldn't have to face blights and other disasters caused by mages that destroy communities like redcliff , black marshes or ferelden after blight thedas would be much better prepared to fight with qunari if they could progress properly not lick wounds.Not mention that Thedas without magic would have to find another way to satisfy own needs with technology that is superior to magic in almost every way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except, in the situation we are in now, the Templar Order's control of the "checks and balances" is why the old system wasn't working out.

 

Not really. The old system wasn't working out because all the checks and balances were breaking down: Chantry/Seeker oversight as well as mage policing of their own ranks. When first enchanters are hiding maleficars rather than hand them over as the public dangers they are, mage independents are hijacking political reforms to escalate tensions and advance their minority agenda, and the Chantry is unable or unwilling to act to abuses to either side, the entire system is corroding.

 

The Templar Order doesn't control the checks and balances. That isn't even the issue: the issue was that no one was controlling their own levers and responsibilities of the checks and balances.
 

 

That, and the damn Seekers need to do their damn jobs.

 

Them and the mage leadership and everyone else.

[mikeymoonshine]

I don't think you can defend Meredith but condemn Orsino. 

 

In the end they were both irresponsible with Magic, Orsino used blood magic and Meredith used red lyrium and now we have red templars because of this. 

[mikeymoonshine]

First mages were subjected to non-mages for 800 years because they didn't had any chance with them not even with templars alone it is clear after many times that for templars crush mages it is easy task.And not rly thedas is place with many wars and slaughters not mention blights where death count is not to compare with tiny minority killed mages so it won't tear the veil... Hell empress killed 3000 elves in that same place and everything was fine pretty much at best we have a few thousands mages in thedas.

 

And here it is easy solution most templar instead hunting mages waste time to watch caputred mages now we don't have that problem all templars will be focused on hunting mages and killing them also new-anti mage policy will solve problem sure not everyone will be captured but most well almost everyone with proper policy and anti-mages... and those who will survive will be forced to live in the wilderness.

 

Don't care it is effective (neither are circles but sadly aren't effective) and peoples did worse thing for more trivial reasons so well it is "human"e heh.

 

Mages represent most destructive troubles and unstable nukes that can lead even to end of the world just even single mage can do that... Qunari well i think if thedas wouldn't have to face blights and other disasters caused by mages that destroy communities like redcliff , black marshes or ferelden after blight thedas would be much better prepared to fight with qunari if they could progress properly not lick wounds.Not mention that Thedas without magic would have to find another way to satisfy own needs with technology that is superior to magic in almost every way.

 

Even if the Mages were all gone the veil would still be there and so would all the demons. Mundanes are not immune to demons, mages are just much easier targets. 

 

Also you say a single mage could end the world (which hasn't happened yet btw) but don't you think killing all the mages would make that much more likely to happen if it really could happen? Wouldn't the surviving mages be allot more dangerous? 

[EmissaryofLies]

She would have had a field day because the charge he was protecting was guilty. 
 
Orisino's job isn't to protect his charges. The First Enchanter is an advocate, not a guardian, and the worst mistake he could make in that position is to defend all mages regardless of guilt.

I completely disagree as it pertains to Kirkwall. The mages clearly needed protecting in that environment. As evidenced by Karras and Alrik . Not to mention their goons not giving a damn about it, not enough to actually do anything anyway. The Circle mages were guilty of existing, nothing more, nothing less.
 

Which was well after Orisino conspired to keep maleficars a secret from her. He doesn't get a retroactive defense.

I must have missed that part. Who were these "maleficars"? Unless you're talking about the midnight meetings where both templars and mages were working together(fancy that) to bring down the mad dog. So that the circle could run properly. 

 

Sure we do- she helped save the city from a Qunari invasion.

So she's willing to fight for her and her templars' livelihood and their rule over Kirkwall? Good for her.
 

As was Orisino, apparently.

Right, because Orsino had so much power in Kirkwall. I recall at one point he wasn't even allowed beyond the courtyard because his Templar Jailer said so. 

[EmissaryofLies]

It does bring into question the mage's willigness to police themselves.

After all, even were the Templars not present, there would always be a need to appear as innocent as a lamb to the general public.

 

Fair enough. 

 

I suppose it entirely depends on the immediate environment and ultimately the disposition of their enchanters. 

[Dean_the_Young]

It isn't mages per se. The problem is spirits (or demons). It just so happens that mages walk both divides. Mages are fine if they stop buddying up or finding the other side of the Veil intriguing. They need to simply learn to appreciate "this world" and not always rely on the other. Often their discontent makes them rely on "the other" though. Demons to provide power. Or spirits to bestow some lost virtue or love they never had. Make the actual world a more livable place for them though, and maybe they won't think like this.

 

I'd sooner kill a Sylvan just for being a Sylvan though. Rather than a mage for just being a mage. The Sylvan has no place in this world. The mage still does.

 

Even without spirits and demons, magic itself has extreme competitive advantages for mages over mundanes. Even without spirits providing the insanity concern, basic emotional volatility and maturity concerns about the intentions of the mages with the power would be enough to justify serious concern. Tevinter rose off of human-controlled magic, not at demonic direction.

[Dean_the_Young]

I thought the magisters made deals with the biggest demons of all? Old gods. They supposedly taught them blood magic.

 

Who knows if that's true though.

 

edit: You're right about typical emotional volatility though. And competitive advantage.

 

There's another origin story that goes that it was the elves who taught them.

 

Personally, I don't think it matters. Regardless of who originally taught it, it was learnable and it was spread by mortals. Tevinter was built by worldy mages.

[Cobra's_back]

Not really. The old system wasn't working out because all the checks and balances were breaking down: Chantry/Seeker oversight as well as mage policing of their own ranks. When first enchanters are hiding maleficars rather than hand them over as the public dangers they are, mage independents are hijacking political reforms to escalate tensions and advance their minority agenda, and the Chantry is unable or unwilling to act to abuses to either side, the entire system is corroding.

 

 

 

The question is why? Could it be they as a group had issues with the terms? I agree with external checks and balance to keep the system from being corrupt like you stated. I believe the terms were the issue. If the mages didn't like the terms, then they won't keep their end of the bargain.  The only way to make this last in my opinion is to draw up a plan that everyone can live with. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Even if the Mages were all gone the veil would still be there and so would all the demons. Mundanes are not immune to demons, mages are just much easier targets. 

 

Also you say a single mage could end the world (which hasn't happened yet btw) but don't you think killing all the mages would make that much more likely to happen if it really could happen? Wouldn't the surviving mages be allot more dangerous? 

Not rly non-mage can be possessed only if demon is already in Thedas and there are only 3 ways for demon to end in thedas 2 can be cased only by mages and third is mostly because of mages

1.Demonic posession (abomnation)

2.Mage summons demon

3.Demon cross torn/weakened veil (as far we have only 1 example veil being weakened non-mages)

 

So yes it solves problem almost entirely not counting natural disaster when demon will cross weakened veil and possess non-mage and it still will be much weaker than abomnation...