1407 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I completely disagree as it pertains to Kirkwall. The mages clearly needed protecting in that environment. As evidenced by Karras and Alrik . Not to mention their goons not giving a damn about it, not enough to actually do anything anyway. The Circle mages were guilty of existing, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Mages do need protecting. The First Enchanter is not the one to do it, any more than mages needing friends should turn to the Templars. Screwing up the roles and limits thereof is how the Kirkwall mess snowballed. The Knight Commander became involved (and likely distracted) in politics, the First Enchanter misunderstood the role of an advocate, the Chantry was indecesive when elements were secretly agitating for crisis.

 

 

I must have missed that part. Who were these "maleficars"? Unless you're talking about the midnight meetings where both templars and mages were working together(fancy that) to bring down the mad dog. So that the circle could run properly. 

 

 

Uh, Quinten? Who we were just talking about? Quinten was active as early as act 1, years before Meredith got the idol, became unhinged, and asked for annulment while blood mages ran the street.

 

Mind you, Orisino's rational for hiding Quinten, who is about as indefensible as you can get, also covers any other misbehaving mage.

 

 

So she's willing to fight for her and her templars' livelihood and their rule over Kirkwall? Good for her.

 

Naughty naughty naughty. You claimed she wasn't good to anyone but her Templars. Now you're backpeddling to assign a motive she has never claimed. Even Anders would disagree with you about her intent.

 

Right, because Orsino had so much power in Kirkwall. I recall at one point he wasn't even allowed beyond the courtyard because his Templar Jailer said so. 

 

 

 

I do believe your exact words were 'either ignorant or malevolent towards the mages who were made tranquil illegally.'

[Dean_the_Young]

The question is why? Could it be they as a group had issues with the terms?

 

Since the mages as a group didn't express a common viewpoint, no. What we had was subgroups of mages who had issues with the terms, and other mages who weren't particularly interested in stopping them. The Chantry stood by and so enabled a very permissive environment for advocating treason for an entire fraternity, and left it to loyalists to keep everyone else from being ambivalent.

 

That strategy of leaving it to the mages to police themselves and stay committed... failed.

 

 

 

I agree with external checks and balance to keep the system from being corrupt like you stated. I believe the terms were the issue. If the mages didn't like the terms, then they won't keep their end of the bargain.  The only way to make this last in my opinion is to draw up a plan that everyone can live with.

 

What everyone can live with will change when everyone dies and their descendants take prior compromises for granted and start taking new issue. That's what happened here- the Circle system was a compromise, and gradually mages found they didn't like the terms their forefathers agreed to. Expecting descendents to stick to a contract their forefathers signed is unreasonable on moral and practical terms. Long-term, concessions to please someone to a status quo are doomed to failure as perspective shifts.

 

 

The Chantry and Templar failure wasn't in having a system the mages didn't like the terms of- it was having a system that would break down if the mages didn't like the terms of it. By encouraging and allowing the creation of a unified mage polity and identity in the Circle, and then letting the Circle come up for control to those who would break the system, the Chantry gradually gave the mage collective an implicit veto of the system- not a sustainable course for a system that intrinsically intends to restrict the interests of mages.
 

Getting mage buy in is important, but making a system that could endure the mages dissent is more so if you feel the goals of the system are more important than the desires of the mages. The Templars and Chantry should have broken the mage polity apart by playing the fraternities against eachother.

[mikeymoonshine]

Not rly non-mage can be possessed only if demon is already in Thedas and there are only 3 ways for demon to end in thedas 2 can be cased only by mages and third is mostly because of mages

1.Demonic posession (abomnation)

2.Mage summons demon

3.Demon cross torn/weakened veil (as far we have only 1 example veil being weakened non-mages)

 

So yes it solves problem almost entirely not counting natural disaster when demon will cross weakened veil and possess non-mage and it still will be much weaker than abomnation...

 

Well there may be other ways and we can't really be sure but ok. What about my other criticisms? If mages are as dangerous as you say then why has the world not been ended yet and why do you think attacking them all is a good idea? 

[EmissaryofLies]

Mages do need protecting. The First Enchanter is not the one to do it, any more than mages needing friends should turn to the Templars. Screwing up the roles and limits thereof is how the Kirkwall mess snowballed. The Knight Commander became involved (and likely distracted) in politics, the First Enchanter misunderstood the role of an advocate, the Chantry was indecesive when elements were secretly agitating for crisis.

No one else was protecting them, Orsino did all that he could with what little he had. If not for Orsino I daresay that Kirkwall's circle wouldn't have survived as long as it did. Thrask was only able to seemingly protect Grace, Cullen did absolutely nothing. Well except for taking Saint Bethany to a circle where she could be abused at anytime. Sometimes a 'duty' or 'job' does not supercede doing the right thing.
 
 

Uh, Quinten? Who we were just talking about? Quinten was active as early as act 1, years before Meredith got the idol, became unhinged, and asked for annulment while blood mages ran the street.
 
Mind you, Orisino's rational for hiding Quinten, who is about as indefensible as you can get, also covers any other misbehaving mage.

Right, Quinten. So you meant the singular when you said that Orsino was 'conspiring to hide maleficars from her'. The only reason of which was to keep the circle from being punished for the actions of an apostate. What other misbehaving mages? We don't even interact with the Circle outside of Orsino and Meredith's tranquil slave. Though that could be because the mages were mostly locked away and weren't 'misbehaving'. I don't count trying to escape probable beatings, confinement and illegal tranquility as 'misbehaving' either.
 

Naughty naughty naughty. You claimed she wasn't good to anyone but her Templars. Now you're backpeddling to assign a motive she has never claimed. Even Anders would disagree with you about her intent.

Self Preservation is backpeddaling? Why wasn't I informed of this?

 

I do believe your exact words were 'either ignorant or malevolent towards the mages who were made tranquil illegally.'

When I was talking specifically about Meredith.

[Arachlia]

First mages were subjected to non-mages for 800 years because they didn't had any chance with them not even with templars alone it is clear after many times that for templars crush mages it is easy task.And not rly thedas is place with many wars and slaughters not mention blights where death count is not to compare with tiny minority killed mages so it won't tear the veil... Hell empress killed 3000 elves in that same place and everything was fine pretty much at best we have a few thousands mages in thedas.

 

And here it is easy solution most templar instead hunting mages waste time to watch caputred mages now we don't have that problem all templars will be focused on hunting mages and killing them also new-anti mage policy will solve problem sure not everyone will be captured but most well almost everyone with proper policy and anti-mages... and those who will survive will be forced to live in the wilderness.

 

Don't care it is effective (neither are circles but sadly aren't effective) and peoples did worse thing for more trivial reasons so well it is "human"e heh.

 

Mages represent most destructive troubles and unstable nukes that can lead even to end of the world just even single mage can do that... Qunari well i think if thedas wouldn't have to face blights and other disasters caused by mages that destroy communities like redcliff , black marshes or ferelden after blight thedas would be much better prepared to fight with qunari if they could progress properly not lick wounds.Not mention that Thedas without magic would have to find another way to satisfy own needs with technology that is superior to magic in almost every way.

You do realize that Blackmarsh-thing was caused by ONE mage? In other words, mages put on the corner are capable at best very massive damage. And remember Kirkwall? Damage there would have been so much worse if not for Hawke & entourage; it would have become totally inhabitable. And genocide against mages would also mean war against Tevinter... If I were Qunari, I would wait until whole massive war against mages would have done it's work then conquer Thedas; I wouldn't let it become strong again.

 

The thing you're doing there is to make templars more powerful than they are and mages weaker.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Yes after 40 years and qunari fighting with every country in Thedas so pretty much they crushed tevinter but fight with everyone exhausted them that cleary shows that qunari>tevinter when they crushed it when fighting with everyone so well...

 

So pretty much if tevinter went against it would be end for tevinter thats why they didn't do that...

 

No the only reason the Qunari took so much territory from Tevinter and the rest of Thedas is because Tevinter and the rest of Thedas had just gone through 4 exalted marches their armies where tired and weakened. That along with the surprise attack was enough to take that territory from the other countries. However here's the most important part that you're ignoring. The treaty that was signed had the Qunari leaving most of the countries that it had captured save for some territory east of Tevinter. The treaty had nothing to do with their war against Tevinter so they weren't forced out of their land.

 

Tevinter singlehandedly regrouped and forced the Tevinter out of their country. That is a fact. What the rest of Thedas couldn't achieve Tevinter achieved by itself. It's the only country that was able to force the war machine of the Qunari to retreat from their country.

 

These are the facts. Tevinter forced the Qunari out of their country and has single handedly fought them off ever since the start of the treaty.  

[Dean_the_Young]

No one else was protecting them, Orsino did all that he could with what little he had. If not for Orsino I daresay that Kirkwall's circle wouldn't have survived as long as it did. Thrask was only able to seemingly protect Grace, Cullen did absolutely nothing. Well except for taking Saint Bethany to a circle where she could be abused at anytime. Sometimes a 'duty' or 'job' does not supercede doing the right thing.
 

 

Other people were protecting them: Templars like Thrask and Cullen (who, yes, did accept mages), Mages like Anders, outsiders like the mage underground.  Your hyperbole is rampant here, and inconsistent- you are making claims of absolutes with a lack of information, while simultaneously claiming later on that a lack of information prevents conclusions.

 

 

 

 

Right, Quinten. So you meant the singular when you said that Orsino was 'conspiring to hide maleficars from her'. The only reason of which was to keep the circle from being punished for the actions of an apostate. What other misbehaving mages? We don't even interact with the Circle outside of Orsino and Meredith's tranquil slave. Though that could be because the mages were mostly locked away and weren't 'misbehaving'. I don't count trying to escape probable beatings, confinement and illegal tranquility as 'misbehaving' either.

 

 

Sure, lets go with singular. I'd be amazed if Orisino was unaware of the other happenings in the Circle, as it would be a mark of further incompetence, but I admit I can't prove anything. Orisino rationalized on an unproven hypothetical that the entire circle would have been punished years ago for the actions of a maleficar, when a counter-hypothetical could argue that had Orisino actually cooperated he would have have had the leverage to prevent that. Instead of maintaining a correspondance with a known seriel killer, which is itself only more damning because it indicated Orisino didn't even cut ties to distance himself and the Circle from Quentin.

 

As for other misbehaving mages, do we really need to identify the mages from sidequests for you? Surely your memory isn't that bad.

 

 

 

 

Self Preservation is backpeddaling? Why wasn't I informed of this?

 

You just were. You are practicing the great art of 'moving goal posts.'
 

 

 

When I was talking specifically about Meredith.

 

 

And I pointed the same could be said about Orisino.

[MisterJB]

Right, Quinten. So you meant the singular when you said that Orsino was 'conspiring to hide maleficars from her'. The only reason of which was to keep the circle from being punished for the actions of an apostate.

No, not singular. He specifically requests a pro-mage Hawke to conceal any evidence of blood magic used by Thrask's followers before Meredith discovers it. He is, evidently, unwilling to admit any type of wrongdoing from Kirkwall's Circle.
 

[TheKomandorShepard]

You do realize that Blackmarsh-thing was caused by ONE mage? In other words, mages put on the corner are capable at best very massive damage. And remember Kirkwall? Damage there would have been so much worse if not for Hawke & entourage; it would have become totally inhabitable. And genocide against mages would also mean war against Tevinter... If I were Qunari, I would wait until whole massive war against mages would have done it's work then conquer Thedas; I wouldn't let it become strong again.

 

The thing you're doing there is to make templars more powerful than they are and mages weaker.

1 mage yes and no because it was caused by pride demon but mage lead to that not mention that was against villagers pretty much why mages need to be killed it was one example.Kirkwall was just bad not only many templars were soft , stupid and incompetent like Thrask because they were freed blood mages sugestion that hefty number of templars were super naive and they paid for that... Templars didn't want to kill mages they wanted capture them and control so it failed because mages can't be controled one of many proves. 

 

2.Not rly tev don't give crap about out-side mages (they are more selfish and self-serving than pro-mage) if i renember correctly even 1 of devs said that and that tevinter don't want competition thats they won't help circle mages...

 

I just remove mages and make thedas more powerful...

 

 

No the only reason the Qunari took so much territory from Tevinter and the rest of Thedas is because Tevinter and the rest of Thedas had just gone through 4 exalted marches their armies where tired and weakened. That along with the surprise attack was enough to take that territory from the other countries. However here's the most important part that you're ignoring. The treaty that was signed had the Qunari leaving most of the countries that it had captured save for some territory east of Tevinter. The treaty had nothing to do with their war against Tevinter so they weren't forced out of their land.

 

Tevinter singlehandedly regrouped and forced the Tevinter out of their country. That is a fact. What the rest of Thedas couldn't achieve Tevinter achieved by itself. It's the only country that was able to force the war machine of the Qunari to retreat from their country.

 

These are the facts. Tevinter forced the Qunari out of their country and has single handedly fought them off ever since the start of the treaty.  

Just?

Please it was 2 centuries ago and qunari was going after entire thedas they crushed tevinter at first and keep them for 40 years on ease while conquering thedas it pretty much shows diffrence. And as i said tev managed free after qunari were fighting for 50 years with thedas what was rather destructive for them. If tevinter was so strong they woulnd't be crushed by qunari not mention controled by them for 40 years when they were fighting war with everyone 50 years.

 

 

 

Well there may be other ways and we can't really be sure but ok. What about my other criticisms? If mages are as dangerous as you say then why has the world not been ended yet and why do you think attacking them all is a good idea? 

Nope thats all possible ways and even if there is like portal or something it would be almost non-existan way as we didn't saw demon using that way. Because world managed to defend barely and thanks to circles but still circle barely helps as disaster count caused by mages is still huge and in fact there were situation with mages that only hero saving the day in last moment saved world from army of demons or something smiliar caused by mages...

 

Because killing them will greatly reduce destruction in thedas and danger of desturction of the world and also make possible to create stable and progressing society...

[EmissaryofLies]

 

 He specifically requests a pro-mage Hawke to conceal any evidence of blood magic used by Thrask's followers before Meredith discovers it.

 

Wrong. 

 

"If Hawke sides with Orsino after the rally, he will call on the Champion to investigate a conspiracy among the Mages and Templars, fearing that they are using Blood magic and hoping that Hawke will remove the Maleficar before Meredith discovers them." - Dragon Age Wikia. 

 

From this video       https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy2ARtIGkHw         From 4:40 - 5:50

 

"Just learn the nature of this meeting, you needn't interrupt unless you find proof of something sinister. I pray not or Meredith will have what she needs to justify the Right of Annulment". 

 

"Remove the Maleficar" and "interrupt if you find proof of something sinister" does not equal "conceal evidence of blood magic", at least not in the insinuated intent. It sounds to me that he wants them to be removed just as Meredith would. Except he's not going to annihilate the entire circle for the actions of a few outliers. 

 

But of course you can disagree. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Nope thats all possible ways and even if there is like portal or something it would be almost non-existan way as we didn't saw demon using that way. Because world managed to defend barely and thanks to circles but still circle barely helps as disaster count caused by mages is still huge and in fact there were situation with mages that only hero saving the day in last moment saved world from army of demons or something smiliar caused by mages...

 

Because killing them will greatly reduce destruction in thedas and danger of desturction of the world and also make possible to create stable and progressing society...

 

Well we don't know what is causing these rifts, it might not be mages. 

 

You keep saying that but it doesn't fit with your rhetoric about the dangers of magic (which I partially agree with) if mages really are as dangerous as you say then trying to exterminate them would result in exactly the kind of disaster that is your reason for believing they should be exterminated. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well we don't know what is causing these rifts, it might not be mages. 

I really hope it's not mages. Either nonmages or demons directly. It will be glorious. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I really hope it's not mages. Either nonmages or demons directly. It will be glorious. 

 

Demon A: Hey guys wanna  tear open the  Veil and start wrecking **** in the mortal world?

 

Demons B-Y: Hellz yeah brah!!!

 

Demon Z: I'm sooooo excited this is going to be the most corruptionist, possesse-y, demonpocalypse ever!!!!!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well we don't know what is causing these rifts, it might not be mages. 

 

You keep saying that but it doesn't fit with your rhetoric about the dangers of magic (which I partially agree with) if mages really are as dangerous as you say then trying to exterminate them would result in exactly the kind of disaster that is your reason for believing they should be exterminated. 

It will be either mage or demon which pretty much leads to abomnation

so mage or abomnation both are mages.

Non-mage can't affect veil well only way is killing everything on the planet but now e know that it is caused by magic so go for mages...

 

Not rly how they wil cause problems when they are dead yep they can't...

Thats how RoA always works hehe

 

I really hope it's not mages. Either nonmages or demons directly. It will be glorious. 

Well it is mage if you want it or not as only demons or mages can mess with veil and demons lead us to mages so ultimately it ends on mage...

[EmissaryofLies]

Other people were protecting them: Templars like Thrask and Cullen (who, yes, did accept mages), Mages like Anders, outsiders like the mage underground.  Your hyperbole is rampant here, and inconsistent- you are making claims of absolutes with a lack of information, while simultaneously claiming later on that a lack of information prevents conclusions.

It's really too bad that you have absolutely no proof of these assertions. Thrask and Cullen were not 'protecting' them, or they were doing so rather badly. Illegally tranquiled mages, rapes and beatings do not equivocate 'protection'. Your misinformation is rampant here. Show me where they were being protected and I'll show you exactly where they failed.

The mage underground and Anders were assisting in the 'misbehavior' that you seem to find reprehensible, yet you claim it to be protection when it suits your purposes.
 

Sure, lets go with singular. I'd be amazed if Orisino was unaware of the other happenings in the Circle, as it would be a mark of further incompetence, but I admit I can't prove anything. Orisino rationalized on an unproven hypothetical that the entire circle would have been punished years ago for the actions of a maleficar, when a counter-hypothetical could argue that had Orisino actually cooperated he would have have had the leverage to prevent that. Instead of maintaining a correspondance with a known seriel killer, which is itself only more damning because it indicated Orisino didn't even cut ties to distance himself and the Circle from Quentin.
 
As for other misbehaving mages, do we really need to identify the mages from sidequests for you? Surely your memory isn't that bad.

The problem is that you have not a shred of proof that he "maintained correspondence with a known serial killer". A letter with no date does not constitute proof.

As I said, I do not begrudge mages(circle mages, whom I've been referring to in this entire discourse) from fleeing their probable demise in Kirkwall's circle. Unless of course you mean Grace and her ilk of the Starkhaven circle. Whom only one, Grace was a practicing Malificar. You can say Alain, but I would fervently disagree. Nothing about his characterization supports such a notion. I suppose you have Huon. Who only lost it as a by product of his time in the circle.
 

You just were. You are practicing the great art of 'moving goal posts.'
And I pointed the same could be said about Orisino.

 
Meredith defending Kirkwall was a matter of self preservation, not some noble deed. She had a gun to her head and she acted. By all intents and purposes Meredith essentially was Kirkwall. From the shadows in the previous acts to outright declaring it in Act III

The same would apply for Orsino if he had a semblance of power, the only power he had was the power that Knight Commander Crazy allotted him. Which wasn't much at all.

[DKJaigen]

Because killing them will greatly reduce destruction in thedas and danger of desturction of the world and also make possible to create stable and progressing society...

 

Your genocidal fantasies are creeping me out. But you are , as usual, wrong. killing al mages will solve nothing. neither the darkspawn or the demons will give a **** that you killed all the mages. At best you will condemn an enormous amount of people who will have to fight a threat a that magic could make so much easier. at worst you condemn humanity to either slavery or extinction. you still need magic to create grey wardens after all

[DKJaigen]

Demon A: Hey guys wanna  tear open the  Veil and start wrecking **** in the mortal world?

 

Demons B-Y: Hellz yeah brah!!!

 

Demon Z: I'm sooooo excited this is going to be the most corruptionist, possesse-y, demonpocalypse ever!!!!!

 

And the fun part is that the demons in all likely hood did have such a conversation.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

 

 

Your genocidal fantasies are creeping me out. But you are , as usual, wrong. killing al mages will solve nothing. neither the darkspawn or the demons will give a **** that you killed all the mages. At best you will condemn an enormous amount of people who will have to fight a threat a that magic could make so much easier. at worst you condemn humanity to either slavery or extinction. you still need magic to create grey wardens after all

Facepalm it solves nothing pro-mages cry about that many times but it solves every threat mages present and thats a lot so please spare me with it "solves nothing".

As i said many times where it is confirmed that joining is blood magic or even magic?And no mages are horrible to fight demons practically it is like send them weapon and ammunition as mages are only power up for demons so nope better send templars that can fight demons and mages or even pesants than mages that will return as abomnations im sure demons now abomnations will thank you for such gift...

[DKJaigen]

Well it is mage if you want it or not as only demons or mages can mess with veil and demons lead us to mages so ultimately it ends on mage...

 

Can you also give me the lottery number for next week while you peek in that crystal ball of yours

[MisterJB]

"Just learn the nature of this meeting, you needn't interrupt unless you find proof of something sinister. I pray not or Meredith will have what she needs to justify the Right of Annulment". 

 

"Remove the Maleficar" and "interrupt if you find proof of something sinister" does not equal "conceal evidence of blood magic", at least not in the insinuated intent. It sounds to me that he wants them to be removed just as Meredith would. Except he's not going to annihilate the entire circle for the actions of a few outliers. 

 

But of course you can disagree. 

 

It is the only logical conclusion. He went to an outside party because, according to him, the Templars would place the blame for those blood mages and Abominations on every mage. Therefore, it does not make sense for him to approach Meredith afterwards and confess that yes, there were mages from the Circle of Kirkwall practicing blood magic but they are gone now, please don't be mad at us when he could simply keep his mouth shut and avoid taking responsability for his charge's actions.

 

Which, BTW, brings us to a point I don't often see adressed. Everyone, rigthfully, blames Meredith for failing to control templars like Karras but no one seems to do the same for Orsino when his charges are the ones breaking the law.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well it is mage if you want it or not as only demons or mages can mess with veil and demons lead us to mages so ultimately it ends on mage...

Not if the demons ripped through it from their side. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Can you also give me the lottery number for next week while you peek in that crystal ball of yours

No but i can use logic...

pretty much it is obvious from the beginning only mages and demons that can use magic can manipulate veil like it or not but normal person can't do crap with it...

 

 

Not if the demons ripped through it from their side. 

 

So you want tell me that when demons ripped that world explodes not mention that if they could do that on command they would be free long time ago not mention that we have villain in game and agent of chaos.

[mikeymoonshine]

It will be either mage or demon which pretty much leads to abomnation

so mage or abomnation both are mages.

Non-mage can't affect veil well only way is killing everything on the planet but now e know that it is caused by magic so go for mages...

 

Not rly how they wil cause problems when they are dead yep they can't...

Thats how RoA always works hehe.

 

You don't know that. Also no if it's a demon/demons then it's not mages, you can't just decide that demons and mages are the same thing to save your crumbling argument. 

 

You think the mages will just let themselves be killed? People who (in your words) can destroy the entire world? You already admitted that they couldn't all be killed anyway, some would survive and become more dangerous than ever and the extermination would devastate Thedas. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No but i can use logic...

pretty much it is obvious from the beginning only mages and demons that can use magic can manipulate veil like it or not but normal person can't do crap with it...

The Inquisitor can be a nonmage yet can close the Breaches. It is only logical that a nonmage could have that power but in reverse so it opens the Breaches.

[KainD]

No but i can use logic...