1407 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

That is just the definition. They group characteristics common in a race. Mages do not look different and X-Men do.

 

That's still a lot of races. X-men do not all look different, most of them look like regular humans.

[waitwhat]

I haven't read all 37 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I'm ignorant to any evolution in the conversation, but as a reply to the first post...

 

Certainly. I think it's a strength of the writing that I can easily see both sides of the argument. From the mages perspective, being locked up in the Circle just because you were born with a special power is an unfair and terrible fate, there's too much prejudice against mages in the world, and the idea of becoming Tranquil is horrifying. Yet from the other side's perspective, mages that aren't part of the Circle tend to literally always cause problems. Blood magic always results in bad times, so many mages always fall to the temptations of demons, and even those with good intentions might accidentally tear open the veil. Then you have what Anders did...

 

I feel like it's easier to be pro-mage when actually playing the games, but I can totally see how this war started and I sympathize with both sides. I'm honestly not sure how my first playthrough of Inquisition will go.

[Moghedia]

According the the chantry the Maker created magic and the mages, by locking them up arnt the templars stating that the Maker made a mistake?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

According the the chantry the Maker created magic and the mages, by locking them up arnt the templars stating that the Maker made a mistake?

Yes, and they're saying the same thing by fighting the Maker's first children and by trying to keep the Maker's wolves away from the livestock the Maker so generously gave them.

[Mister Gusty]

 

That is not what Asunder said.

 

What married couple did you find in the circle? Why was Wynne's baby taken? Did you read Asunder? Why did Hawk's dad leave the circle?

 

I am just about at the end of Asunder, and nowhere is it stated that mages can't be married. The lack of married mages in the book does not prove your point, while it also does not prove that they can get married either, unless it is stated explicitly somewhere then you cannot claim it as a fact, it is not mentioned in WOT either, so unless you can quote a source on the topic, please stop stating as fact.

 

The only source I can find on it is from the Dragon Age Wiki which some people do not accept, but I find it is generally accurate.

 

"Mages, because of their outsider status, are not bound to traditional social mores and consequently enjoy greater sexual freedom than most, though the exact degree varies from Circle to Circle. For example, Anders expressed surprise that Emile de Launcet of the Kirkwall Circle was still a virgin at 24, and noted that such a thing would be unheard of in the Fereldan Circle. Mages are discouraged (though not actually forbidden) from marrying and reproducing, as the offspring of mages are very likely to possess magical ability themselves. Dialogue between Wynne and Alistair hints at some form of birth control or abortion being readily available to mages, perhaps to discourage the propagation of magically gifted children. If a mage does produce a child, it is taken from the parents at birth and raised under the supervision of the Chantry. Those children who prove to have magical ability are immediately transferred to a Circle of Magi in another country, where they are taught to control their powers away from their birth parents. Mages (and non-mages) who do not wish to be separated from their children will sometimes conceal them from the Chantry and either train the child themselves (as Malcolm Hawke did) or hire an apostate as a tutor (as Arlessa Isolde hired Jowan to tutor Connor Guerrin)."

 

So you can choose to not accept that, but please if you state they are forbidden from marriage please provide your source.

[Far Wanderer]

WOW. So many replies in such a short time.

 

I am not familiar with specific details about how the Chantry regulates mages in DA. I guess the real question here is: Whether the Constitution (obviously there is no Constitution in Thedas, so I'll just say "commonsense justice" then) permits the government (the Chantry) to detain thedosians (those who are capable of performing arcane talents) indefinitely in Circle of Magi on the grounds that national security is at stake?

 

I just wanted to say this mage-templar conflict is one of the most classic debates over liberty v. security theme and I am just intrigued by the fact that BioWare successfully implemented this module into the worlds of Thedas. That's all.

 

Everyone has their own opinion and no one is absolutely right or wrong. Right?

[Cobra's_back]

That's still a lot of races. X-men do not all look different, most of them look like regular humans.

 

Then why did they call them a fifth race? I was replying to another post and I'm not big on X-Men. That being said I can't see why Mages would be called a fifth race.

[Cobra's_back]

 

 

 

I am just about at the end of Asunder, and nowhere is it stated that mages can't be married. The lack of married mages in the book does not prove your point, while it also does not prove that they can get married either, unless it is stated explicitly somewhere then you cannot claim it as a fact, it is not mentioned in WOT either, so unless you can quote a source on the topic, please stop stating as fact.

 

The only source I can find on it is from the Dragon Age Wiki which some people do not accept, but I find it is generally accurate.

 

"Mages, because of their outsider status, are not bound to traditional social mores and consequently enjoy greater sexual freedom than most, though the exact degree varies from Circle to Circle. For example, Anders expressed surprise that Emile de Launcet of the Kirkwall Circle was still a virgin at 24, and noted that such a thing would be unheard of in the Fereldan Circle. Mages are discouraged (though not actually forbidden) from marrying and reproducing, as the offspring of mages are very likely to possess magical ability themselves. Dialogue between Wynne and Alistair hints at some form of birth control or abortion being readily available to mages, perhaps to discourage the propagation of magically gifted children. If a mage does produce a child, it is taken from the parents at birth and raised under the supervision of the Chantry. Those children who prove to have magical ability are immediately transferred to a Circle of Magi in another country, where they are taught to control their powers away from their birth parents. Mages (and non-mages) who do not wish to be separated from their children will sometimes conceal them from the Chantry and either train the child themselves (as Malcolm Hawke did) or hire an apostate as a tutor (as Arlessa Isolde hired Jowan to tutor Connor Guerrin)."

 

So you can choose to not accept that, but please if you state they are forbidden from marriage please provide your source.

 

 

You just read Asunder correct.

 

 

Why would mages have to sneak around to have sex? You did see this in the book.

 

Why would Hawk's dad have to leave if he just wanted to get married and have a family?

 

What married couple did you find in any tower?

 

Why did they take Wynne's baby away? She said she didn't want them to. One of the benefits of getting married is having a family.

 

This doesn't make sense. If you are free to marry, then why do you have to sneak around and why do they have a right to take your child away.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You just read Asunder correct.

 

 

Why would mages have to sneak around to have sex? You did see this in the book.

 

Why would Hawk's dad have to leave if he just wanted to get married and have a family?

 

What married couple did you find in any tower?

 

Why did they take Wynne's baby away? She said she didn't want them to. One of the benefits of getting married is having a family.

 

This doesn't make sense. If you are free to marry, then why do you have to sneak around and why do they have a right to take your child away.

The 'take your child away' part is most likely for the protection of the child. The Circle towers is not the best place for an infant or toddler. 

[KainD]

That being said I can't see why Mages would be called a fifth race.

 

Because they are different enough from mundanes.

[Cobra's_back]

The 'take your child away' part is most likely for the protection of the child. The Circle towers is not the best place for an infant or toddler. 

 

The right to have a family is one of the reasons to get married. The system doesn't want to allow a family.

 

Because they are different enough from mundanes.

 

Good point. But if they are not using the magic how would you tell? I guess the staff behind the person is a good hint. Thanks for showing me the light.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The right to have a family is one of the reasons to get married. The system doesn't want to allow a family.

But just like in the real world, if the state sees the child is in danger with the family, such as abuse from parents, then they can take the child from the parents. Same basic principle here. 

 

I don't like it, but I can see why the Chantry does it.

[Cobra's_back]

But just like in the real world, if the state sees the child is in danger with the family, such as abuse from parents, then they can take the child from the parents. Same basic principle here. 

 

I don't like it, but I can see why the Chantry does it.

 

Here is the deal in the States you have to prove the parent is a danger. The parent in the USA has to physically or mentally abuse the child first. You can't take the child away because you think they may abuse the child. They didn't prove Wynne was a danger. They actually let her out on missions. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Here is the deal in the States you have to prove the parent is a danger. The parent in the USA has to physically or mentally abuse the child first. You can't take the child away because you think they may abuse the child. They didn't prove Wynne was a danger. They actually let her out on missions. 

Thedas is a place that believes being a mage is, not will be, a constant danger both for the mage and anyone around them. And no only that, but anyone else in the tower is a constant danger. Both from regular magic and the possibilities of abominations.

[Inprea]

The 'take your child away' part is most likely for the protection of the child. The Circle towers is not the best place for an infant or toddler. 

I'm going to disagree with that. Given that we're talking about a time with very limited medical technology sickness and hunger should be the primary killers. In the circle tower the child would have a healer readily available most likely especially if that child's parent is trained in healing. Keep in mind that leeches are still being used as medicine in thedas.

 

Then there is the issue that you're separating the child from his or her mother. Even in a modern setting the breast milk of a healthy woman is considered the golden standard baby formula. We're talking near perfect nutrition for a growing child, protection from sickness and well I remember the list was 20-30 items long. They are even health benefits for the mother like lowering the chance of cancer and helping strengthen the pelvic bone. As most mages are well fed and live in a clean environment I believe it's quite likely the mother would be healthy.

 

I also would like to know more about the quality of the parents the chantry provides these children and potential mages.

 

I just don't see the justification of it's safer for the child as valid. I would say that removing the child from its parent increases the odds of the child dieing unless the tower is very abusive and if the tower is indeed abusive what's the odds of them taking proper care of a mage's child?

[Cobra's_back]

Thedas is a place that believes being a mage is, not will be, a constant danger both for the mage and anyone around them. And no only that, but anyone else in the tower is a constant danger. Both from regular magic and the possibilities of abominations.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. It is clearer now. That makes the statement "Mages are allowed to marry" look like lip service from the Chantry because the mages will not have the same rights as other married couples:

[Hellion Rex]

But just like in the real world, if the state sees the child is in danger with the family, such as abuse from parents, then they can take the child from the parents. Same basic principle here. 

 

I don't like it, but I can see why the Chantry does it.

Ditto. Circles are an extremely dangerous place to raise a child. Heaven forbid, what do we do if an Annulment were to be called down on a Circle? What do we do then?

[Cobra's_back]

I'm going to disagree with that. Given that we're talking about a time with very limited medical technology sickness and hunger should be the primary killers. In the circle tower the child would have a healer readily available most likely especially if that child's parent is trained in healing. Keep in mind that leeches are still being used as medicine in thedas.

 

Then there is the issue that you're separating the child from his or her mother. Even in a modern setting the breast milk of a healthy woman is considered the golden standard baby formula. We're talking near perfect nutrition for a growing child, protection from sickness and well I remember the list was 20-30 items long. They are even health benefits for the mother like lowering the chance of cancer and helping strengthen the pelvic bone. As most mages are well fed and live in a clean environment I believe it's quite likely the mother would be healthy.

 

I also would like to know more about the quality of the parents the chantry provides these children and potential mages.

 

I just don't see the justification of it's safer for the child as valid. I would say that removing the child from its parent increases the odds of the child dieing unless the tower is very abusive and if the tower is indeed abusive what's the odds of them taking proper care of a mage's child?

 

Most societies back then were terrible to orphans. Many orphans were abused.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm going to disagree with that. Given that we're talking about a time with very limited medical technology sickness and hunger should be the primary killers. In the circle tower the child would have a healer readily available most likely especially if that child's parent is trained in healing. Keep in mind that leeches are still being used as medicine in thedas.

 

Then there is the issue that you're separating the child from his or her mother. Even in a modern setting the breast milk of a healthy woman is considered the golden standard baby formula. We're talking near perfect nutrition for a growing child, protection from sickness and well I remember the list was 20-30 items long. They are even health benefits for the mother like lowering the chance of cancer and helping strengthen the pelvic bone. As most mages are well fed and live in a clean environment I believe it's quite likely the mother would be healthy.

 

I also would like to know more about the quality of the parents the chantry provides these children and potential mages.

 

I just don't see the justification of it's safer for the child as valid. I would say that removing the child from its parent increases the odds of the child dieing unless the tower is very abusive and if the tower is indeed abusive what's the odds of them taking proper care of a mage's child?

The Chantry raises all the children produced by mages, so they still have access to anything they would if in the Circle minus their parents.

 

And Thedas doesn't know much about anatomy due to the study being illegal since people think it will be used by blood mages, so I doubt they know the benefits that we do now. 

[Cobra's_back]

Ditto. Circles are an extremely dangerous place to raise a child. Heaven forbid, what do we do if an Annulment were to be called down on a Circle? What do we do then?

 

Well there were mage children in the circle and the Templars were going for the Annulment in DAO.

[Mister Gusty]

 

You just read Asunder correct.

 

Why would mages have to sneak around to have sex? You did see this in the book.

 

Because as the source I just quoted said, it depends on how strict the Circle is, The White Spire seemed pretty strict to me, especially under the command of the Lord Seeker.

 

Why would Hawk's dad have to leave if he just wanted to get married and have a family?

 

Because he wanted to have children with Leandra, and he wouldn't be able to live with his children and Leandra if he was still within the Circle of Magi.

 

What married couple did you find in any tower?

 

As I have said, there is no married couples referenced in the book, but the lack of married mages does not prove they are forbidden, the source I quoted states they are discouraged but not forbidden.

 

Why did they take Wynne's baby away? She said she didn't want them to. One of the benefits of getting married is having a family.

 

Because they do not allow mages to raise their children, as the Circle is not seen as the safest place for a baby to be raised, for instance what if babies were in the Fereldan tower when the abominations took over?? what would have happened to them then??

 

This doesn't make sense. If you are free to marry, then why do you have to sneak around and why do they have a right to take your child away.

 

Already covered these points.

Could you please provide a source of any kind to back you up please.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well there were mage children in the circle and the Templars were going for the Annulment in DAO.

Most children in the Circle are between 8-12 years of age since that is when magic usually starts to manifest itself. 

[Hellion Rex]

Well there were mage children in the circle and the Templars were going for the Annulment in DAO.

I'm talking newborns, or 2 to 3 year olds.

[Cobra's_back]

 

Could you please provide a source of any kind to back you up please.

 

 

Thanks for replying. This is what I posted earlier you may have not seen it. I was under the impression they were not because of the book and they way they handled Wynne in Ferelden as well as Hawk's dad in Kirkwall.

 

 

"Thanks for pointing this out. It is clearer now. That makes the statement "Mages are allowed to marry" look like lip service from the Chantry because the mages will not have the same rights as other married couples."

 

 

 

[KainD]

"Thanks for pointing this out. It is clearer now. That makes the statement "Mages are allowed to marry" look like lip service from the Chantry because the mages will not have the same rights as other married couples."

 

I don't see any point in circle mage marriage. There is no finances to share or future family to be had.