1407 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

We have no indication whatsoever of a dreamer being more powerful when casting normal spells. None.
You are (again) headcanoning here.

And no, them being more powerful is not the only explanation, especially given that magic and the Fade are still a mistery.

And why wouldn't demons be interested in a dreamer? Unlike other mages, they can shape the Fade when they're there.

Give me another logical explanation, I'm all ears. If you are going to simply say that we don't know, I am going to work with what I have, until proven wrong officially.

[KainD]

A single Abomination can *instantly* tear the veil.

Not a given, depends on the power of said abomination.

[dragonflight288]

Not a given, depends on the power of said abomination.

 

Also, doesn't the codex say the only abominations known to do that have been Desire and Pride demons? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Also, doesn't the codex say the only abominations known to do that have been Desire and Pride demons? 

Not really. All the codex says is that al ldemons will always attempt, in one way or another, to possess a mage when they encounter one, and that once an Abomination has been created it will attempt to create more.

[KainD]

Not really. All the codex says is that al ldemons will always attempt, in one way or another, to possess a mage when they encounter one, and that once an Abomination has been created it will attempt to create more.

Pretty altruistic don't you think? Trying to help other demon buddies to get trough as well.

[MisterJB]

What would be another logical reason for a dreamer to attract more demons than regular mages? 

Because Dreamers have the ability to control people through the Fade; Feynriel will either make bandits kill each other if sent to Tevinter or madden Kirkwallians through nightmares if made an Abomination. And Titus was using the Maghrallen and Maric's Dragon Blood to strengthen his Dreamer abilities to the point where he could mind control every single person in the world through the Fade.

 

It doesn't mean they are any stronger when they are outside of the Fade lauching fireballs like the more common mages. For instance, Felassan is a Dreamer but he almost soiled himself when Celene&Co went up against an Arcane Horror and two Revenants. Ser Michel and Gaspard had to be the ones to kill one of the Revenants and the Arcane Horror.

 

Dreamers are powerful when in the Fade. Outside of it, they're not all that special. Alistair, for instance, literally bitchslapped Titus into running away with his tail between his legs when in Tevinter.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dreamers are powerful when in the Fade. Outside of it, they're not all that special. Alistair, for instance, literally bitchslapped Titus into running away with his tail between his legs when in Tevinter.

Alistair's a man of narrative importance, so bad example. Apart from that, I agree with everything you're saying.

[KainD]

Because Dreamers have the ability to control people through the Fade; Feynriel will either make bandits kill each other if sent to Tevinter or madden Kirkwallians through nightmares if made an Abomination. And Titus was using the Maghrallen and Maric's Dragon Blood to strengthen his Dreamer abilities to the point where he could mind control every single person in the world through the Fade.

It doesn't mean they are any stronger when they are outside of the Fade lauching fireballs like the more common mages. For instance, Felassan is a Dreamer but he almost soiled himself when Celene&Co went up against an Arcane Horror and two Revenants. Ser Michel and Gaspard had to be the ones to kill one of the Revenants and the Arcane Horror.

Dreamers are powerful when in the Fade. Outside of it, they're not all that special. Alistair, for instance, literally bitchslapped Titus into running away with his tail between his legs when in Tevinter.

Yes, but what is the logic behind it? What makes dreamers attuned to the fade and able to enter it without lyrium if it is not power? Because all lyrium is, is power.

[Altima Darkspells]

Yes, but what is the logic behind it? What makes dreamers attuned to the fade and able to enter it without lyrium if it is not power? Because all lyrium is, is power.

Could be a form of blood magic. When the Magisters physically entered the Fade, they supplemented the lyrium used for it with a crapton of sacrifice.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, but what is the logic behind it? What makes dreamers attuned to the fade and able to enter it without lyrium if it is not power? Because all lyrium is, is power.

The impression I got is that it just takes dreamers less power.

 

Could be a form of blood magic. When the Magisters physically entered the Fade, they supplemented the lyrium used for it with a crapton of sacrifice.

Probably not. We see a dreamer learn to control his powers, and he doesn't seem to be doing anything like that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes, but what is the logic behind it? What makes dreamers attuned to the fade and able to enter it without lyrium if it is not power? Because all lyrium is, is power.

 

Magic.

 

 

And that's pretty much all it needs to be: the same sort of attunement that lets some people be mages and some people not be.

 

Mind you, mages enter the fate without lyrium every time they go to sleep: it's one of the less flashy distinguishing things between mages and mundanes. Mundanes sleep through it and forget, mages are awake for it. And without lyrium to boot.

[KainD]

Magic.


And that's pretty much all it needs to be: the same sort of attunement that lets some people be mages and some people not be.

Mind you, mages enter the fate without lyrium every time they go to sleep: it's one of the less flashy distinguishing things between mages and mundanes. Mundanes sleep through it and forget, mages are awake for it. And without lyrium to boot.

This is actually kinda strange. What's the difference between dreaming and entering the fade the way dreamers do, or with lyrium, or blood magic? Like why waste lyrium or blood instead of just taking a nap?

[Dean_the_Young]

This is actually kinda strange. What's the difference between dreaming and entering the fade the way dreamers do, or with lyrium, or blood magic? Like why waste lyrium or blood instead of just taking a nap?

 

Well, being able to actually get to sleep is hard for some of us. I've never been able to take naps mayself- unless it's heat exhaustion, and even then.

 

More seriously, there's probably a significant element of control. When we've seen or heard of people using lyrium to enter the fade, it's generally been with a specific goal or target in mind: to find this demon, or that spirit, and so on. Falling asleep might get you to the fade, but it could well be functionally useless for finding anything specific: where you end up is outside of your control, and you are limited in your ability to change your surroundings. Using a deliberate ritual to enter the fade helps you ensure you reach your objective.

 

We don't really have a 'why' this occurs, we just know that it does. Being a dreamer isn't about having an extra power source to fuel something any mage can do- it's a special exception in relation to fiddling with the fade.

[dragonflight288]

Also, Dreamers are supposedly VERY rare because they have a significantly low survival rate because of their close connection to the Fade. 

 

I suppose a Dreamer would be a mage with a very strong connection, and likewise there may be mages with a considerably weaker connection who can barely cast spells, but their connection is strong enough to qualify them as mages, so it may be a matter of genetics and chance. 

 

I mean, Feynriel is supposed to be the first dreamer born who lived to adolescence outside of Tevinter in a very long time. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

My understanding of the ritual mages use to enter the Fade (not just the normal sleep one), is because that with this particular ritual, they can control where in the Fade they end up, and perhaps they can even control part of the Fade more reliably.

[SamaraDraven]

It's my understanding that Dreamers can enter and exit the Fade at will - meaning without lyrium or falling asleep. All mages remain awake in the Fade, hence why Fade missions are usually only something a mage can undertake, like when you save Connor in DAO. If your Warden isn't a mage, you have to pick a mage companion to do it. I don't think Dreamers are especially more powerful than regular mages but rather they possess a different skill set that is particularly devious in nature. They can enter other people's minds from the Fade, like it's a conduit to a back door to the mind. According to the codex, Dreamers, unlike regular mages, can shape the Fade when they're there. All mages remain conscious and in the waking world can use their magic to change or create things, like throwing fireballs and healing sick people. But changing the Fade hasn't seemed to be something regular mages can do much of. And really they're reacting to the environment, not creating it or altering it. Demons may create stuff in the Fade too it seems, hence why it looks like a strange facsimile of the real world so what I think demons want from a Dreamer is their ability to enter and leave at will as well as to control other people from the Fade. If they possess a Dreamer, they can possess many others simultaneously and demons are all about possessing a mage so they can interact with the real world. It's possible such an abomination would be more powerful because they have access to so many other minds. They may channel others' powers to them or alter the Fade (since Dreamers can do that) to funnel more power to the human they control. Dreamers seem to me to be like the skeleton key to the Fade.

[Palathas]

What is your solution then?

 

Completely tear the veil, effectively removing it and letting the strongest survive! Oh wait.....

[KainD]

Completely tear the veil, effectively removing it and letting the strongest survive! Oh wait.....

 

No, don't wait, there is no time to waste! You bring the slaves, I'll gather the most powerful magisters. This veil is going down baby!

[Hellion Rex]

No, don't wait, there is no time to waste! You bring the slaves, I'll gather the most powerful magisters. This veil is going down baby!

How about we don't let the demons in?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, don't wait, there is no time to waste! You bring the slaves, I'll gather the most powerful magisters. This veil is going down baby!

This is probably a joke but in all seriousness: I wonder if allowing the condition of the world to stand is going to be an option? You know, demons and benevolent spirits passing through the Veil at will, learning to be human by example? This would of course be a horribly stupid idea with a good deal of lives lost, but I wonder if we'll be allowed to do it anyway?

[KainD]

How about we don't let the demons in?

 

How about we don't keep ourselves out?

[SamaraDraven]

This is probably a joke but in all seriousness: I wonder if allowing the condition of the world to stand is going to be an option? You know, demons and benevolent spirits passing through the Veil at will, learning to be human by example? This would of course be a horribly stupid idea with a good deal of lives lost, but I wonder if we'll be allowed to do it anyway?

That's an interesting idea! Like in Jade Empire you could leave the Water Dragon in suspended animation (or whatever that was) instead of freeing her. You have to fight most of your buddies to get away with it but you can do it.

[WardenWade]

There has been some really interesting discussion here   It would be fascinating to learn more about just how much control a Dreamer has over the Fade.  I know in Asunder Wynne mentions (if I recall correctly) that in the Fade regular mages can sculpt reality to their will as well.  I wonder how much more a fully-fledged Dreamer might accomplish?  Additionally, I've always found it interesting that non-mages appear to do the same, instinctively, on a smaller and more personal level.  Both Asunder and The Calling note that a dreamer only believes that they carry a weapon, for example, but it still cuts due to their belief in it doing so.  So in a sense, it seems possible to me that, to varying degrees, all dreamers shape the Fade...whether mage or not.

 

Likewise, I hope we'll get more info on how a Dreamer enters the Fade.  Marethari mentions they can do so without lyrium, seemingly at will, yet

Spoiler

Feynriel appears to still be asleep as normal during Night Terrors (as far as I am aware).  On the other hand, Felassan is able to enter the Fade with special herbs, in an ambiguous trance state.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Everyone causes a lot of problems in Thedas. No exceptions. Every group, culture, faction, race, political alliance, etc. causes problems for other people. The nobles to peasants, humans to elves, dwarves to casteless, mages to non-mages, non-mages to mages, Qunari to Thedasians, Tevinter to everyone they wish to enslave, farmers and towns to nomadic tribes, the darkspawn to every living being in existence, etc. From petty squabbles over whether a Chasind stole a local farmer's crops to great kings declaring war on other nations to the darkspawn trying to Blight out all life in the world, everyone is stepping on everyone else's toes in Thedas. No exceptions.

And that's why it is totally okay to be a dick!