1407 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

*bangs head on desk*

[Br3admax]

 

Since not every abomination has to be dangerous, 

Where did you get this from? 

[Mockingword]

I don't care if mages do cause problems.

 

Sharks occasionally kill people, but that doesn't justify their extinction.

 

And anyway, what are people supposed to do about it? Mages are gonna keep being born, and magic surrounds the entire world. Even non-mages go to the Fade when they dream, and pure crystallised magic grows out of the freaking ground. There's no escape from it, and no way to get rid of it, short of fundamentally altering the setting to the point it becomes unrecognisable.

[Hellion Rex]

So...dare I ask who thought this was a good topic?

[MisterJB]

But she isn't likely to do so; I acknowledge that she is probably capable of such. 

 

Thing about Wynne is that unlike Anders she is not driven by a fanatical hatred of all things Templar or mage oppression. She's a benevolent person who seeks to help others. The likelihood of 'faith' becoming corrupted by her seems rather scarce. She even transferred the spirit into Evangeline. She has demonstrated control of her powers and her control over Faith. 

She certainly is safer than most mages which justifies the freedoms she was granted. However, there is still always the possibility of her snapping; she almost did so in Asunder.
And if it does happen, a great number of people will die. Every mage is dangerous.

[Mockingword]

So...dare I ask who thought this was a good topic?

... the original poster?

[Shaen Mac Tir]

Am I the only one that doesn't think that the fact a person could kill someone does justify it's execution?

I mean, shouldn't you also think that, say, we should kill anyone who has power or an army or a skilled warrior because they could use it wrong?

Nobody should be punished for crimes they didn't commit. Nobody.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Am I the only one that doesn't think that the fact a person could kill someone does justify it's execution?

I mean, shouldn't you also think that, say, we should kill anyone who has power or an army or a skilled warrior because they could use it wrong?

Nobody should be punished for crimes they didn't commit. Nobody.

Well i can make being mage crime and they so they are guilty of crime now heh problem solved.

Insane peoples are locked because they are dangerous but not even close to mages so well they didn't commited crime but are punished deal with that...

[EmissaryofLies]

She certainly is safer than most mages which justifies the freedoms she was granted. However, there is still always the possibility of her snapping; she almost did so in Asunder.
And if it does happen, a great number of people will die. Every mage is dangerous.

 

Where did you get this from? 

 

The case study of one Wynne. 

 

She is capable of causing harm, but she is not likely to cause harm. 

 

It basically comes down to your perception of the term. 

 

I do not view capability as sufficient for the label or an equivalent to likelihood in certain cases. 

 

Mr. Miyagi from Karate Kid for instance.

 

So mages CAN be dangerous. Not all are inherently so, as is the case with some Hedge Mages and the Tranquil.

[MisterJB]

I also forgot to bring up Hedge Mages. 

 

"Hedge mages are untrained magic-users who wield powers developed outside of conventional teaching.[2] Often their magic may be harmless enough that they are not pursued by the Chantry."

 

Since not every abomination has to be dangerous, not every mage is extremely dangerous. Some to the point where even the Chantry doesn't go after them.

An hedge-mage is not a synonim of abomination. Just because they may have unconventional powers that are not all that dangerous; such as shapeshifting which, while good for spying and evading capture, is not that dangerous in combat; doesn't mean they wouldn't become dangerous if possessed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The case study of one Wynne. 

 

She is capable of causing harm, but she is not likely to cause harm. 

 

It basically comes down to your perception of the term. 

 

I do not view capability as sufficient for the label or an equivalent to likelihood in certain cases. 

 

Mr. Miyagi from Karate Kid for instance.

 

So mages CAN be dangerous. Not all are inherently so, as is the case with some Hedge Mages and the Tranquil.

Yes like she did in asunder...

 

And please don't compare guy who will at best harm few peoples to abomnation that can harm hundreds of peoples and thats if we have luck...

[TurretSyndrome]

Am I the only one that doesn't think that the fact a person could kill someone does justify it's execution?

I mean, shouldn't you also think that, say, we should kill anyone who has power or an army or a skilled warrior because they could use it wrong?

Nobody should be punished for crimes they didn't commit. Nobody.

 

 

You're not the only one  .(my post on page 3)

 

The problem here is that the people that so easily believe genocide is the answer cannot seem to understand how it feels. How it feels to be born with that power, how it feels to have nightmares from the day you turn mage-teen, how it feels to have people you knew for a long time be suddenly scared of you and call the Templars on you, allowing you to be ripped away from your family, or your own parents look at you with fear and hate, call you a demon.

 

You can't really feel all that in a video game, or from reading a book. You can only imagine. That's why the "solution" of killing every mage comes so easy to them., and I don't blame them. Sometimes, things like this can only be truly understood when you yourself face them.

 

So yes, they'll say that now, they're on a forum. They got nothing to lose, no blood on their hands, no conscience to face before going to bed. It would do you good if you remember that.

[SamaraDraven]

No one deserves to be killed or locked away for an accident of birth. But I get it: It's far easier to do that than to educate, face one's fears and treat all demographics of a people as equals. The biggest contributing factor of the people's fear of mages is because of the Chantry and what it preaches. Just because a mage can do a lot of damage doesn't mean they will and it's wrong to kill/ incarcerate any faction of a people because they have a capability.

 

A person who owns a lot of guns and ammo could go on a killing spree but we don't lock away/kill all gun owners. A person who is a black belt in martial arts could go around crushing people's solar plexus but we don't round them up and neutralize them. There are many things any person could do. A mage could become an abomination but that is what templars are for.

 

If they acted more like police and gave all accusations of magical abuse a fair investigation rather than treating mages like criminals from the outset, there would be far fewer real incidents of mages becoming possessed. No mage wants to be possessed. No mage wants to give up their sense of self, likely hurt innocent people and be cut down. There's not really any kind of coming back from possession.

 

Connor was an exception. Most of the time, the mage loses everything, including themselves. It's the sort of thing a person does when they see no way out, when the future ahead is nothing but pain and sorrow and they lose all will to resist. Connor wanted to save his dad and had he been schooled, he would've understood what it was that had come to him with an offer of help. His mother refused to admit he was a mage and lose her child because she loved him and didn't want to lose him - something the Chantry dictates - and because of her piety and the stigma and shame surrounding the perception of having a mage child - also something the Chantry preaches.

 

From where I sit, the Chantry is the evil here or some of its dogma rather. If things were different and the people less fearful of magic, Isolde wouldn't have been ashamed to take Connor to a school, there would have been no Jowan to poison Eamon. Loghain - a mundane man - his arrogance and power grab started a series of events that culminated in what happened at Redcliffe. Had mages all been neutralized, Eamon would have just died instead and Loghain would have been free to continue to impede the Warden and where would that have led but to civil war? In the midst of a Blight - a Blight Loghain didn't believe in. Ferelden would have fallen and Orlais would have had an easy time of conquering Ferelden a second time. It's easy to toss out rhetoric about mage dangers but all humans are dangerous. Getting rid of mages would have just changed the course of things, but not automatically for the better. Blaming them for cases like Connor's is too simple and shortsighted. The root of how Connor was able to cause the damage he did can be traced back to the Chantry. Preaching hate and intolerance in the name of salvation is the real danger and evil.

 

To simplify: no one deserves to have their life and freedom forfeit just because of an accident of birth and what they may possibly do. It's inhumane. What good is saving humanity if you give up being human in the process? To participate in it, to advocate it, to sit by and let it happen - all people would be complicit, there would be no innocents. Mages would still be born and so future generations would still be complicit. And may the Maker have mercy on them for killing babes, who had done no wrong, as they slept in their beds. That is not a world I would accept.

[MisterJB]

Am I the only one that doesn't think that the fact a person could kill someone does justify it's execution?

I mean, shouldn't you also think that, say, we should kill anyone who has power or an army or a skilled warrior because they could use it wrong?

Nobody should be punished for crimes they didn't commit. Nobody.

No one is talking about punishing mages for their capabilities, not even TKS.

Our own society's legal system is built upon the foundation that people are dangerous because they have the capability to harm others. It's because of this that we have rules that tells us what we can and can't do and restrictions to our freedom from the moment we are born regardless if we have ever harmed others or not.

The same logic applies to mages; their restrictions are simply harsher because, on average, they have a greater potential for destruction than the rest of the world.

[Adanu]

Mages don't cause problems, Demons and improper use of magic does.

 

Treating the symptoms does nothing for the actual disease, no matter how many justifications Pro-Templar people dream up.

[Mockingword]

I dunno, seems to me like there were points where Wynne almost bored entire crowds to death with her self-righteous nagging.

[MisterJB]

If they acted more like police and gave all accusations of magical abuse a fair investigation rather than treating mages like criminals from the outset, there would be far fewer real incidents of mages becoming possessed.

Why? If a group of Templars pursue a mage because he has run away from the Circle, then the mage may become an Abomination.

However, the same may ocurr if they are being pursued by a group of pirates intent on harming them.

 

Being part of the general population in Thedas is not the ticket to an easy life. Being "free" also means being free to starve, to be hunted, to suffer. Thedas is full of stressfull situations that may push someone over the edge. Of course, whereas a normal person pushed over the edge may grab a sword and kill one, two, three people; a mage may kill dozens or become possessed and kill hundreds.

 

Removing the Circles will not diminish the number of Abominations because Templars are not the sole source of suffering in Thedas; rather, it will expose everyone else to Abominations.

[EmissaryofLies]

An hedge-mage is not a synonim of abomination. Just because they may have unconventional powers that are not all that dangerous; such as shapeshifting which, while good for spying and evading capture, is not that dangerous in combat; doesn't mean they wouldn't become dangerous if possessed.

 

Yes, if they become possessed. And if they do not, they are relatively 'harmless'. As abominations are rare and even then not all are universally dangerous in the sense that you can reasonably expect them to blow up the Chantry or 'snap'...Every mage is not extremely dangerous. Though you might see them as such. 

[AresKeith]

Mages man....

[Shaen Mac Tir]

To simplify: no one deserves to have their life and freedom forfeit just because of an accident of birth and what they may possibly do. It's inhumane. What good is saving humanity if you give up being human in the process? To participate in it, to advocate it, to sit by and let it happen - all people would be complicit, there would be no innocents. Mages would still be born and so future generations would still be complicit. And may the Maker have mercy on them for killing babes, who had done no wrong, as they slept in their beds. That is not a world I would accept.

 

This was actually my whole point. The society that condemns people from birth, people who just might cause trouble is a very specific anti-utopia described in a bunch of classics, books and movies, and this kind of society always crashes down.

And I don't want to live in such a society, also.

[SamaraDraven]

No one is talking about punishing mages for their capabilities, not even TKS.

Our own society's legal system is built upon the foundation that people are dangerous because they have the capability to harm others. It's because of this that we have rules that tells us what we can and can't do and restrictions to our freedom from the moment we are born regardless if we have ever harmed others or not.

The same logic applies to mages; their restrictions are simply harsher because, on average, they have a greater potential for destruction than the rest of the world.

 

Some here have argued for exactly that. And I disagree that mage restrictions being as harsh as they are is justified. It's some of those very restrictions that allow abuse to take place. They are not simply restrictions when the people as a whole are preached to view mages as something to fear, loathe and accept as second class citizens. For if they were viewed as equals, the people would not accept their imprisonment either. Using their piety to keep fear of magic alive is a Chantry specialty. Then as a result, the people accept that mages must be oppressed, that mages should be denied freedoms, the right to marry and have children or take up whatever occupations they wish. When a demographic of a people is seen as less than everyone, abuse is inevitable. No. Something different needs to be tried. The current restrictions do more harm than good and when mages snap because they've had enough, everyone points and goes "See? See! They're dangerous!".

 

What else is to be concluded that you first make thieves and then punish them?

[SamaraDraven]

Why? If a group of Templars pursue a mage because he has run away from the Circle, then the mage may become an Abomination.

However, the same may ocurr if they are being pursued by a group of pirates intent on harming them.

 

Being part of the general population in Thedas is not the ticket to an easy life. Being "free" also means being free to starve, to be hunted, to suffer. Thedas is full of stressfull situations that may push someone over the edge. Of course, whereas a normal person pushed over the edge may grab a sword and kill one, two, three people; a mage may kill dozens or become possessed and kill hundreds.

 

Removing the Circles will not diminish the number of Abominations because Templars are not the sole source of suffering in Thedas; rather, it will expose everyone else to Abominations.

 

A pirate doesn't have mage nullifying talents that leave them unarmed like templars do. A mage has recourse within their normal abilities without resorting to accepting a demon. And I didn't say to remove the Circles, I said they should be changed, different, the mages allowed greater freedoms. There should still be templars - as I said before. Mages aren't the sole source of suffering in Thedas either.

[General TSAR]

I don't care if mages do cause problems.

 

Sharks occasionally kill people, but that doesn't justify their extinction.

Sharks don't become psychotic Lovecraft creatures capable of leveling villages. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

This was actually my whole point. The society that condemns people from birth, people who just might cause trouble is a very specific anti-utopia described in a bunch of classics, books and movies, and this kind of society always crashes down.

And I don't want to live in such a society, also.

Human and evles history it seems it worked well it lasted for long time...

You hardly have anything to say something about society you live... society dictates laws you listen end of the story...

 

Mages are danger to human civilization so they should be treated as such.

 

common sense always wins with pointless morality and humans always ultimately pick what was convenient and benefical not moral thats why we are still alive...

[Shaen Mac Tir]

society dictates laws you listen end of the story...

 

The society doesn't "dictate" anything. The society is what we all are.

However, you are the one trying to dictate your will and making everybody around you to bow their heads. In Thedas, I mean, but nevertheless.

common sense always wins with pointless morality and humans always ultimately pick what was convenient and benefical not moral thats why we are still alive...

 

That is so not true.

People tend to make the world peaceful and happy. Living in the conditions when everybody is a ruthless killer doesn't help. That's why the societies of such type always crash.