1407 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

A pirate doesn't have mage nullifying talents that leave them unarmed like templars do. A mage has recourse within their normal abilities without resorting to accepting a demon. And I didn't say to remove the Circles, I said they should be changed, different, the mages allowed greater freedoms. There should still be templars - as I said before. Mages aren't the sole source of suffering in Thedas either.

 

Thrask's daugther became an Abomination exactly because she was being targeted by pirates.

And it's just an example. The point is that it is not Templars that drive mages to become abominations. Stress does, emotions do.

And there are an infinite number of ways a mage can become an Abomination without the Templars ever being involved.

 

You did not specify which freedoms there were but you did mention you were against "locking mages up" hence, I assumed you would in favor of increasing contact between normal people and mages which means you will be exposing them to dangers of magic.
 

[Mockingword]

Sharks don't become psychotic Lovecraft creatures capable of leveling villages. 

The extinction of Lovecraftian horrors isn't justified either, so there.

[MisterJB]

This was actually my whole point. The society that condemns people from birth, people who just might cause trouble is a very specific anti-utopia described in a bunch of classics, books and movies, and this kind of society always crashes down.

And I don't want to live in such a society, also.

You live in that society right now. Your freedoms and my freedoms were restricted from the moment we were born because we are human.

Just because Thedas has set the goalpost in a different area doesn't mean the ideals behind the situation are not the same.

 

People are dangerous so, we place restrictions on them so we can co-exist. In Thedas, some have harsher restrictions placed upon them because some people can kill others with a thought and others can't.

[MisterJB]

The extinction of Lovecraftian horrors isn't justified either, so there.

I knew this day would come.

A pro-mage just defended the preservation of things like Cthulu.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The society doesn't "dictate" anything. The society is what we all are.

However, you are the one trying to dictate your will and making everybody around you to bow their heads. In Thedas, I mean, but nevertheless.

That is so not true.

People tend to make the world peaceful and happy. Living in the conditions when everybody is a ruthless killer doesn't help. That's why the societies of such type always crash.

Not rly you don't have any impact on its laws well you don't have impact on almost anything...

Well it isn't different from what we have now so well...

 

Haha yes right that is reason for war peace and happiness good one. And who said that everyone will run with sword and murder mages as i said it will be anti-magical order job not peoples peoples will be only to hate mages and inform that order to deal with them.

[Shaen Mac Tir]

Haha yes right that is reason for war peace and happiness good one. And who said that everyone will run with sword and murder mages as i said it will be anti-magical order job not peoples peoples will be only to hate mages and inform that order to deal with them.

 

 

You know we had such a society once here, it was called USSR.

Nothing good came of it, as you know, and we still are suffering the consequences of it's existence even now. But I think you're just don't give it some thought and being all radical because you haven't suffered in any way from that kind of things...

I think this conversation is over.

[EmissaryofLies]

This thread has restored my Faith. 

[General TSAR]

The extinction of Lovecraftian horrors isn't justified either, so there.

Defending Cthulhu eh? That doesn't surprise me. 

[Mockingword]

I knew this day would come.

A pro-mage just defended the preservation of things like Cthulu.

Any person with a shred of logic or basic sense of decency would do the same.

 

Cthulhu has just as much right to exist as any human being. Just because some old gods are mean doesn't make it okay to wipe out the entire species. It actually makes you an even worse douche than they are.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

You know we had such a society once here, it was called USSR.

Nothing good came of it, as you know, and we still are suffering the consequences of it's existence even now. But I think you're just don't give it some thought and being all radical because you haven't suffered in any way from that kind of things...

I think this conversation is over.

 

 

Please i don't want communism...

In the end every society is "you do what we want or GTFO (and that is at best)"

As i said i don't care as long im on list guys that can blow me up along with earth...

[MisterJB]

Some here have argued for exactly that. And I disagree that mage restrictions being as harsh has they are is justified. It's some of those very restrictions that allow abuse to take place. They are not simply restrictions when the people as a whole are preached to view mages as something to fear, loathe and accept as second class citizens. For if they were viewed as equals, the people would not accept their imprisonment either. Using their piety to keep fear of magic alive is a Chantry specialty. Then as a result, the people accept that mages must be oppressed, that mages should be denied freedoms, the right to marry and have children or take up whatever occupations they wish. When a demographic of a people is seen as less than everyone, abuse is inevitable. No. Something different needs to be tried. The current restrictions do more harm than good and when mages snap because they've had enough, everyone points and goes "See? See! They're dangerous!".

 

What else is to be concluded that you first make thieves and then punish them?

Abuses must be adressed but the Chantry does not teach that mages are "second class citizens". It teaches that mages are dangerous, certainly, but that is simply the truth. The only claim regarding magic that the Chantry has ever made that may be questionable is that they created the Darkspawn; everything else is simply a matter of fact.

People, of course, react strongly to the idea of others who can force them to eat their families with a cut on their wrist and then set them on fire with a wave of it but should we deny them information just because it's not pleasant?

 

The Circle is a good system. It denies certain freedoms, that is true, but it presents alternatives. Mages aren't allowed to reproduce but they can find their family on the people around them. They are allowed to leave and visit cities or conduct work if they prove themselves trustworthy. They are given acess to levels of education, housing and food that are denied from most of the population; heck, the mages in Val-Royeaux lived in Emperor Drakon's former palace.

 

People are kept safe from harmful magic, Abominations and magical domination of society while mages are protected from lynchings and the like. Abuses happen and they must be adressed; greater effort needs to be put into policing Templars as well as mages; but, all in all, the Circle is a good system.

 

[DKJaigen]

No one is talking about punishing mages for their capabilities, not even TKS.

Our own society's legal system is built upon the foundation that people are dangerous because they have the capability to harm others. It's because of this that we have rules that tells us what we can and can't do and restrictions to our freedom from the moment we are born regardless if we have ever harmed others or not.

The same logic applies to mages; their restrictions are simply harsher because, on average, they have a greater potential for destruction than the rest of the world.

 

oh no. we have restrictions of course otherwise you would have nothing but anarchy . But society does not put any restrictions on people on what they can do. The best example are the police and soldiers who are trained killers. And a policemen's knowledge of the system allows them to completely circumvent the system.  The damage a corrupt policemen does is tremendous and is difficult to remove as its very difficult to detect. The kill count of a soldier turned soldier of fortune is greater then  any abomination can achieve. And yet its easier for a soldier or policemen to succumb to greed then a mage agreeing to a mind rape to become an abomination.

Yet we don not lock these people up do we? And the chantry agrees. If a mage is a war hero what stops him from becoming an abomination later? nothing! yet they are rewarded with the right to settle in a village.

 

You can say whatever you wish about food clothing and shelter but as mage you are still forced to work with people that do not have your best interest in mind. As an introverted person the circle would be tolerable to me. It would be mental torture however for those who crave social contact and are extrovert. And the system did not collapse because the templars where not strict enough. the system collapsed because of the stupid rules associated to the system. even if the system becomes more strict it would only run into the ground again and again.

[MisterJB]

Any person with a shred of logic or basic sense of decency would do the same.

 

Cthulhu has just as much right to exist as any human being. Just because some old gods are mean doesn't make it okay to wipe out the entire species. It actually makes you an even worse douche than they are.

 

Have you even read Lovecraft? Do you have any idea what the Old Ones in Cthulu's level are? What the ones above it are like?

 

I mean, just the very idea of a "right to exist" goes against everything Lovecraft wrote.
 

[SamaraDraven]

Thrask's daugther became an Abomination exactly because she was being targeted by pirates.

And it's just an example. The point is that it is not Templars that drive mages to become abominations. Stress does, emotions do.

And there are an infinite number of ways a mage can become an Abomination without the Templars ever being involved.

 

You did not specify which freedoms there were but you did mention you were against "locking mages up" hence, I assumed you would in favor of increasing contact between normal people and mages which means you will be exposing them to dangers of magic.
 

 

Thrask's daughter was deceived and sold into slavery and backed into a corner - which I previously stated tends to be when a mage welcomes a demon's possession, rather than as a matter of course. She was also hidden from the Circle by Thrask because he knew what it was like there. Hence, had the Circle not been so oppressive she would have been there. Or at home, whittling wood, or out at the market buying bread and cheese. She was opened up to being vulnerable because she was trying to flee. She wasn't free in her society. If she was, she'd have been out and about doing whatever she chose to do with herself. Not that she wouldn't ever find herself in a dangerous predicament but that particular secnario came about because the risky attempt at flight was a better alternative to being locked away. Had there been a better system in place, I doubt that would have been the case.

 

What is it about arguing for more freedoms and a better way that automatically makes people think normal folks would be exposed to magic? Having a better system includes laws by which society is governed. People with a license to carry a gun still have laws to abide by. They're not just waving a pistol in their hand as a matter of every day interaction. Similarly with mages, restrictions on using magic in public and prohibitions from using magic in their profession unless it is a magical profession like potion making, could be established. Having templars on the streets, like cops, to be on hand in case there is a magical altercation and having registration lists and travel papers are all forms of keeping an eye on the "mage threat" that doesn't involve locking them away. And closely resembles our society today. Denying mages basic rights because of what they might do is wrong.

 

Olivia's slavers are the real criminals and ending such piracy is what should be focused on, not blaming a mage for trying to protect herself. Which, again, wouldn't have been the case if she wasn't trying to sneak passage on a boat out of Kirkwall. Making thieves and punishing them, right there...

[Mockingword]

Have you even read Lovecraft? Do you have any idea what the Old Ones in Cthulu's level are? What the ones above it are like?

 

I mean, just the very idea of a "right to exist" goes against everything Lovecraft wrote.

Yes, I have read Lovecraft. And I maintain that old gods have as much right to exist as humans.

 

Not being a totally putrid racist also goes against everything Lovecraft wrote. What's your point?

[Mockingword]

Mages aren't allowed to reproduce but they can find their family on the people around them.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Seriously?

 

"You're forbidden from ever knowing the joys of parenthood, BUT HERE, HAVE A BUNCH OF STRANGERS, THAT'S TOTALLY THE SAME."

[Cainhurst Crow]

Any person with a shred of logic or basic sense of decency would do the same.

 

Cthulhu has just as much right to exist as any human being. Just because some old gods are mean doesn't make it okay to wipe out the entire species. It actually makes you an even worse douche than they are.

 

Listen to yourself, you're enthralled!

[EmissaryofLies]

Oh my lord I'm gettin' the vapors. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Seriously?

 

"You're forbidden from ever knowing the joys of parenthood, BUT HERE, HAVE A BUNCH OF STRANGERS, THAT'S TOTALLY THE SAME."

 

I see someone's never read the works of plato.

[EmissaryofLies]

I see someone's never read the works of plato.

 

Overrated.

 

I much prefer the works of Duke Sicknasty.

[Cainhurst Crow]

oh no. we have restrictions of course otherwise you would have nothing but anarchy . But society does not put any restrictions on people on what they can do. The best example are the police and soldiers who are trained killers and the policemen knowledge of the system allows them to completely circumvent it.  The damage a corrupt policemen does is tremendous and difficult to remove as its very difficult to detect. The kill count of a soldier turned soldier of fortune is greater then what any abomination can achieve. And yet its easier for a soldier or policemen to succumb to greed then a mage agreeing to a mind rape that is abomination.

Yet we don not lock these people up do we? And the chantry agrees. If a mage is a war hero what stops him from becoming an abomination later? nothing yet they are rewarded with the right to settle in a village.

 

You can say whatever you wish about food clothing and shelter but a s mage you are still forced to work with people that do not have your best interest in mind. As a introverted person the circle would be tolerable to me. It would mental torture however for those who crave social contact and are extrovert. And the system did collapse because the templars where not strict enough. the system collapsed because of the stupid rules associated to the system. even if the system becomes more strict it would only ru into the ground again and again.

1. Prisons exist.

2. Mercenaries are mostly outlawed and require registration and proper channels to exist in a lot of countries, and face the same penal system as other private contractors.

3. Soliders and Police offices can be charged with crimes and be sentenced to prison.

4. "But society does not put any restrictions on people on what they can do." That's the entire point of outlawing something, you put a restriction on people from doing that thing they can do.

5. We already isolate people from societies and modern convenience, it's the entire basis for indigenous rights movements to preserve the way of life for various isolated tribes in more rural and jungle areas.
 

[SamaraDraven]

Oh my lord I'm gettin' the vapors. 

 

hehehe... *fans you* Calm... be calm... I have to go now. Stoopid werk calls.

[Mockingword]

I see someone's never read the works of plato.

... and?

 

I mean, what's the point here? "Haha, you haven't read a book!" So what? If I haven't read Plato, then I'm not gonna care what he said. Or do you think that namedropping some old dead Greek dude is gonna demoralise me? Like, "Oh nooooo, he's flexing his intellectual muscles, I should go home before everyone on the beach laughs at me for having such scrawny brains."

 

What if I have read Plato, and I disagree? It's not outside the bounds of possibility, you know. He's not the only philosopher in the world.

[Cobra's_back]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Seriously?

 

"You're forbidden from ever knowing the joys of parenthood, BUT HERE, HAVE A BUNCH OF STRANGERS, THAT'S TOTALLY THE SAME."

 

I know it is totally unbelievable that this guy thinks this is okay.

[Cainhurst Crow]

... and?

 

I mean, what's the point here? "Haha, you haven't read a book!" So what? If I haven't read Plato, then I'm not gonna care what he said. Or do you think that namedropping some old dead Greek dude is gonna demoralise me? Like, "Oh nooooo, he's flexing his intellectual muscles, I should go home before everyone on the beach laughs at me more having such scrawny brains."

 

What if I have read Plato, and I disagree? It's not outside the bounds of possibility, you know. He's not the only philosopher in the world.

 

Of course it isn't out of the bounds of possibility, I don't agree with a lot of what he writes either, being a person who enjoys his passions and "lesser" pleasures. But I do find it funny that you completely dismiss an entire type of close relationship's existence just for the sake of promoting your own agenda.