59 réponses à ce sujet

[Jazinto]

 

So why give straight female Inquisitors an NPC and gay Inquisitors a party member?

 

For the same reason it happened in ME3 presumably. Whatever that might be.

 

I'm not sure what you mean.

Straight female Shepards could romance Kaidan if imported alive or new player, Garrus if imported, the NPCs were previous squad members Thane and Jacob.

Gay Shepards had Kaiden only if imported alive, new male Shepards got Ashley, and an NPC.

So yes, Kaidan was a party member available to gay Shepards, but he was at the same time available to straight female Shepards.

[jlb524]

If they would favour the straight male audience, because there more of them, shouldn't they also favour they straight female audience over the gay male audience? There are most likely more straight female player characters than gay male player characters. Cullen is probably straight or maybe bisexual. So why give straight female Inquisitors an NPC and gay Inquisitors a party member?

 

Cullen appears to be fan service. It's possible that he's not part of the standard roster. In DAII they had the four bisexual options and in addition to that Sebastian.

 

Or the Dragon Age team doesn't consider their NPC romances inferior to companion romances. So they would have no problem with Cullen being the straight option and that would also mean they would have no problem with either the straight or the lesbian option being an NPC.

 

They might not necessarily favor the straight female audience as much as the straight male (see ME3 for a recent example).

 

I'm pretty sure Cullen won't be gay so it's looking good for a gay male companion LI (nothing is set in stone yet, ofc).

 

Hey j! Good to see the voice of reason is back with us! 

 

Me?  Nah

[The Uncanny]

Hmm... annoyingly I didn't notice the 'straight' bit in my quoting.

 

I was expanding from what j was trying to say.

 

She was suggesting that a situation akin to ME3 could arise where the opportunity for an m/m party character relationship was included but not an f/f party character (in that case of ME3 because that would evidently have been 'retconning'). I think that is less likely with DAI... but ME3 did set a precedent. And the more they push NPC LIs as valid the more likely that an LI option (or options) which they want to expend less resource on could end up being an NPC or NPCs.

 

If anyone is fine with NPC LIs then good for you. But BW games have set party character LIs as standard. And nothing they have done thus far have demonstrated to me that NPC equivalents can match them in terms of tone or content.

[Jazinto]

They might not necessarily favor the straight female audience as much as the straight male (see ME3 for a recent example).

 

I'm pretty sure Cullen won't be gay so it's looking good for a gay male companion LI (nothing is set in stone yet, ofc).

 

Yeah, I doubt he's gay, but even if he is, David Gaider said more than one option for every type of player remains the goal. So there would probably be another guy one could pick. Same if the scribe turns out to be the lesbian character. It would "only" be a bisexual companion, but the option would be there at least.

[Jazinto]

Hmm... annoyingly I didn't notice the 'straight' bit in my quoting.

 

I was expanding from what j was trying to say.

 

She was suggesting that a situation akin to ME3 could arise where the opportunity for an m/m party character relationship was included but not an f/f party character (in that case of ME3 because that would evidently have been 'retconning'). I think that is less likely with DAI... but ME3 did set a precedent. And the more they push NPC LIs as valid the more likely that an LI option (or options) which they want to expend less resource on could end up being an NPC or NPCs.

 

If anyone is fine with NPC LIs then good for you. But BW games have set party character LIs as standard. And nothing they have done thus far have demonstrated to me that NPC equivalents can match them in terms of tone or content.

 

Well, Kaidan was a retcon. I don't know why the devs didn't make Ashley available to female Shepards. Perhaps they thought Liara filled that role of a f/f party character and filled it better than Ashley, because Liara's romance could span all three games. Maybe it really was about Ashley's religious views. Or maybe they just wanted to give more than one option and for lesbian Shepards beside Sam there was already Diana Allers and possibly Kelly. I have no idea.

I don't know why they made Kaidan bisexual. I wrote about that yesterday actually:

 

If there wasn't the Kaidan romance for fShep then there probably wouldn't be one for mShep. They wouldn't have written his romance just to be a gay romance. He was dead for a lot of people. New male player characters got Ashley instead of him by default. He was romanceable by female player characters anyway and it took little effort to make him available to male player characters as well. I would like to think they only did that to make up for the fact that there never was a gay romance option in any previous Mass Effect. Whatever the gay romance option would be, it wouldn't be the same as some of the other romances spanning two or even three games. So investing little time and effort to make Kaidan, who we know from the first game, romanceable by male Shepards was an attempt to make up for that. In reality they might have done it just because it was easily done and there was no reason not to.

 

Maybe it was because he was most likely dead for most straight male Shepards and out the way. Maybe it was fan service. Maybe the devs actually thought the long neglected gay fans really wanted them to retcon Kaidan as bisexual and maybe most really did.

 

I was certainly not a fan of the gay NPC.

 

Anyway, in context of the gender imbalance in the party David Gaider said:

 

There seems to be quite the laser-like focus on party members. Understandable, perhaps, considering those are the characters with whom you spend a great deal of time... [...]

We. however, approach the equation a little differently. [...] Gender diversity is also considered, but when we look at it in terms of representation, we look at it in terms of representation across the entire story—not just in the party.

Considering Inquisition takes place in a world where many (if not most) of the world's power players are female (the ruler of Orlais, the head of the Chantry and the Circle of Magi, possibly the ruler of Ferelden and others...not to mention the many characters outside of the party with whom you will also be deeply involved.[...]

 

He says he understands the laser-focus on the party members. But when it comes to representation they look across the entire story, not so much the party. If they don't consider the party more important than NPCs in matters of gender balance, maybe they don't consider party character LIs more important than NPC LIs.

[jlb524]

Yeah, I doubt he's gay, but even if he is, David Gaider said more than one option for every type of player remains the goal. So there would probably be another guy one could pick. Same if the scribe turns out to be the lesbian character. It would "only" be a bisexual companion, but the option would be there at least.

 

Yes, there will be options.

 

I just don't see non-compnaion characters as being on equal footing as companion ones so I worry that they will likely make the lesbian character a non-companion.   It seems they will probably go for 1 straight/1 bisexual/1 gay option for each gender.  The best way to introduce a gay female without also seemingly limiting the options for a straight male PC is to make her a non-companion.

 

What the lesbian PC will get is one bisexual female companion to pick from (basically, we are back to DA:O).

 

 

 

If anyone is fine with NPC LIs then good for you. But BW games have set party character LIs as standard. And nothing they have done thus far have demonstrated to me that NPC equivalents can match them in terms of tone or content.

 

I do agree.  I don't see how NPC LIs can have the same quality of content, considering how little you interact with them.  The NPC characters don't seem to be as fleshed out.  This is less of an issue with Cullen as he is a returning character but it is definitely something I worry about with the new female adviser character that most think could be romance option.

 

With NPC characters, you miss out on banter between other party members...you miss out on them commenting on your decisions when you do a quest.  I like to see characters fleshed out like this, outside of simply interacting with the PC at a home base.  Most people see NPC romances as the 'lesser content' for good reason.

[The Uncanny]

Well, Kaidan was a retcon.

 

I used that word to try and be satirical, actually. I don't think retconning really applies to these characters unless one were to stand up and state that they're only interested in people of the opposite sex and being hit on by a person of the same sex would be spectacularly unwelcome.

 

Which would be pretty jarring in a game about the hunt for giant intergalactic space cockroaches.

 

 

Or maybe they just wanted to give more than one option and for lesbian Shepards beside Sam there was already Diana Allers and possibly Kelly.

 

Yeah. Options.

 

It's at moments like that I could feel my usual plea for more choice getting thrown into my face like a bucket of freezing water.

 

Three options! Look! Count for yourselves! Three!

 

And yet Silk Fox they're not.

 

Options versus content, people. Where do you strike the balance? I'm just throwing it out there...

[Jazinto]

Yes, there will be options.

 

I just don't see non-compnaion characters as being on equal footing as companion ones so I worry that they will likely make the lesbian character a non-companion.   It seems they will probably go for 1 straight/1 bisexual/1 gay option for each gender.  The best way to introduce a gay female without also seemingly limiting the options for a straight male PC is to make her a non-companion.

 

What the lesbian PC will get is one bisexual female companion to pick from (basically, we are back to DA:O).

 

I still don't know if Bioware would actually make the scribe the lesbian character, rather than a third companion. Surely they are aware of how people feel about the NPC LIs in ME3.

 

I used that word to try and be satirical, actually. I don't think retconning really applies to these characters unless one were to stand up and state that they're only interested in people of the opposite sex and being hit on by a person of the same sex would be spectacularly unwelcome.

 

Kaidan was only available to female Shepards in the original Mass Effect. He commented on Asari physique. The lines for a romance dialogue between him and male Shepard were recorded, but the devs didn't use them. They decided he wasn't available to male Shepards. They most certainly didn't make him secretly bisexual. Even if they did, he never communicated that he was anything but straight, because his behaviour explicitly demonstrated heterosexuality, thus he appeared and was considered straight, effectively making him straight regardless of authorial intent. That's just how it is. Unless proven otherwise a character is considered straight.

His excuse in Mass Effect 3? "You were always focused on the work back then." Which never stopped him from romancing a female Shepard. Whenever it was decided that ME3 was going to have m/m options, then it was decided to make Kaidan bisexual. To me that is a retcon.

[jlb524]

I still don't know if Bioware would actually make the scribe the lesbian character, rather than a third companion. Surely they are aware of how people feel about the NPC LIs in ME3.

 

I hope you're right.  I don't even care how they divvy up the sexualities among the three female companions at this point, as long as it's even.  I'm personally not set on one over the other.

 

This post by Gaider is kind of worrying though.  He's addressing a different criticism here, that there are only 3 female companions vs. 6 males, but they could use a similar line of reasoning to justify including a NPC LI.

[The Uncanny]

Kaidan was only available to female Shepards in the original Mass Effect. He commented on Asari physique.

 

So what?

 

The lines for a romance dialogue between him and male Shepard were recorded, but the devs didn't use them. They decided he wasn't available to male Shepards. They most certainly didn't make him secretly bisexual.

 

I'm still not seeing what difference this makes.

 

You have never known anyone who believed themselves to be 100% 'straight' only to one day figure out that maybe they're not? You have never even heard of such a person?

 

So how does making a character without a fixed sexual orientation (if you'd like to point out the 'sexual orientation' screen in the game then please be my guest) available to a set of players that you didn't initially make them available create a problem? Because I don't see it.

 

And how does one go about conveying that a videogame character with about twenty minutes of dialogue is secretly bisexual? And how does not conveying that make them not secretly bisexual?

 

You really must pass on these highly impressive arcane secrets.

 

Even if they did, he never communicated that he was anything but straight, because his behaviour explicitly demonstrated heterosexuality, thus he appeared and was considered straight, effectively making him straight regardless of authorial intent. That's just how it is. Unless proven otherwise a character is considered straight.

 

Wow.

 

I mean... wow.

 

Did anyone else find that spectacularly offensive? Or was it just me?

 

So you're saying that behaviour demarcates sexual preference?

 

And here was me thinking that Judith Butler had established that it was gender that was performative almost twenty five years ago.

 

Amazingly, and hang on in there because I guess this is going to be a bumpy ride, but homosexual and bisexual people can have all kinds of differing behaviours. Just like heterosexual people. It's shocking, I know.

 

But that's just how it is.

 

What other people might 'consider' is not my problem. It's their problem.

 

His excuse in Mass Effect 3? "You were always focused on the work back then." Which never stopped him from romancing a female Shepard. Whenever it was decided that ME3 was going to have m/m options, then it was decided to make Kaidan bisexual. To me that is a retcon.

 

Nope. What that is is poor writing. To be fair there is plenty of it in the Mass Effect games so I can see how you would lose track of that in the shuffle.

 

Let's check out the definition of 'retcon', shall we?

 

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work."

 

Established facts. So... does Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2 establish as a fact beyond any doubt and without any room for change or reappraisal that Kaidan is not, has never been and would never under any potential circumstances be interested in another man?

 

Because, y'know, a flippant comment on asari physiognomy and some archaic notion of heterosexually coded behaviour doesn't really cut it.

[Jazinto]

If a fictional character exclusively shows heterosexual behaviour and interest in the opposite sex, then that character is straight. You may not think so, but most people do. That's how it works in the media. Being straight is the standard. If you want to establish a character as anything but straight, you have to indicate this otherness. For the same reason straight people don't have to come out as straight and gay people have to come out as gay, if they want to be open and honest.

 

If Kaidan was always bisexual, then why couldn't a male Shepard romance him before when a female Shepard could? The writers knew this was an issue. They had to make up a reason for his sudden bisexuality. So they made him give an explanation. He doesn't say he noticed that he's not entirely straight. Nor does he say that he was more into women than into men back then. Instead he talks about the last years and he says that Shepard always seemed so focused on the work back then and that the mission was everything. And Shepard automatically says that was true and that he'll never know what he missed. There is no coming out from Kaidan, no admission that he's now fine with being bisexual and there is no plausible explanation why a male Shepard couldn't romance him before if he was happily bisexual all along. The given explanation doesn't work, because a female Shepard could romance him in the first Mass Effect whilst being on the very same mission as a male Shepard.

[The Uncanny]

*snip*

 

I was going to reply to what you said but after reading it I see that there is absolutely no point.

 

Because to reply to this I'd just have to repeat what I've already said. And if I have to repeat myself then you're either ignoring what I've said or can't/won't engage with it.

 

Feel free to keep cutting and pasting the above responses ad infinitum if you wish to, though.

 

You weren't called Collider on the old BSN site, were you?

[Rowe]

 

I'm still not seeing what difference this makes.

 

You have never known anyone who believed themselves to be 100% 'straight' only to one day figure out that maybe they're not? You have never even heard of such a person?

 

 

My bf lived the majority of his life as "hetero," so it can, seemingly, come out of nowhere! Gender roles tend to be learned and mimicked, rather than a natural expression of deeper emotions, so I could believe Kaiden as bisexual. Still, it would have been nice for Bioware to have the foresight to write perhaps some sort of internal struggle or something into the earlier games.

 

That being said, I do wish they had written in more of a conversation between a male PC and Kaidan (if romance is initiated). Nothing to the effect of "why did you switch teams" (that's a very shallow perspective), but something besides "you were busy" which explains why he never showed any interest before. But, I agree, it seems like it's poor writing more than anything else that makes the transition from friend to lovers a bit awkward. I think it should have been handled with a bit more delicacy and with attention to detail rather than just making him a love interest in ME3 without any explanation as to his earlier aloofness.

 

I still won't complain though! Kaidan was another one of my m/m video game crushes that I was silently praying would turn into a romance option! So I'll take it! Clumsily executed or not! (Now if only the same will happen with Cullen...)  

[The Uncanny]

I do wish they had written in more of a conversation between a male PC and Kaidan (if romance is initiated). Nothing to the effect of "why did you switch teams" (that's a very shallow perspective), but something besides "you were busy" which explains why he never showed any interest before. But, I agree, it seems like it's poor writing more than anything else that makes the transition from friend to lovers a bit awkward. I think it should have been handled a bit more delicacy and with attention to detail rather than just making him a love interest in ME3 without any explanation as to his earlier aloofness.

 

Over on your 'Limiting Romance Options' thread you brought up Jade Empire and Sky. I think Jade Empire really is a really good example to look to. In terms of handling, it perhaps remains the high bar.

 

Silk Fox actually makes a point of the dangers - and the illicit thrill - of falling for another woman. That was nice.

 

As keen as I am on the approach adopted by DA2, I would like to see more alternate dialogue. Is that really so much to ask? I'm not asking for an entirely different set of dialogue, just some variant lines. Would that really be a huge drain on resources?

 

But then I always want to talk more and shoot/stab less in these games anyway. 

[WildOrchid]

Unless proven otherwise a character is considered straight.

 

And this is what grinds my gears. Nobody should be considered "straight until proven otherwise"... that's a huge mistake. The right should be they have no sexuality until proven otherwise. If you see a dude with a woman or comments for women doesn't necessarily means he's straight. Until he says he's straight, nobody should assume anything.

 

I reallyreally dislike this way of thinking. Seriously.

[The Uncanny]

And this is what grinds my gears. Nobody should be considered "straight until proven otherwise"... that's a huge mistake. The right should be they have no sexuality until proven otherwise. If you see a dude with a woman or comments for women doesn't necessarily means he's straight. Until he says he's straight, nobody should assume anything.

 

I reallyreally dislike this way of thinking. Seriously.

 

I couldn't possibly agree more. 

[jlb524]

 

As keen as I am on the approach adopted by DA2, I would like to see more alternate dialogue. Is that really so much to ask? I'm not asking for an entirely different set of dialogue, just some variant lines. Would that really be a huge drain on resources?

 

 

To go further, I also understand the desire to have a full on gay companion which will apparently come about from this set sexuality system.  It does open up a lot of possibilities of having more dialog tailored to s/s interest.  If you think about companion banter from the previous two games, basically any of it that touched on sexuality/flirting/hook-ups was heterosexual in nature.  I don't think even Isabela flirted much with female companions.  Looking at the DAI female cast, lets say the female elf whatshername is a lesbian and she openly/playfully flirts with Cassandra...I can see that this would be a cool thing to have finally.

 

Eh, the problem I have though is that I don't have faith that they'll actually do anything like this.  The potential is there of course and I see that this can make people hopeful about what they are doing in DA:I but I don't think they will deliver anything of the sort.  I'm especially worried as a lesbian as I'm convinced the lesbian female character will be a non-companion and thus can't really have as many dialog opportunities as others.

 

Furthermore, I don't think they'd add too much s/s flirting among companions to avoid alienating some of the straight people that would complain heavily about such things. So again, I see potential not being realized.

 

But hey, now we can get more non-ambiguous straight characters and lots more heterosexual flirting!  I just feel like the DAI think is more for the benefit of some straight gamers that complained over the lack of straight only romance and not for the benefit of, well, someone like me.  I know there are people who claim it will be awesome for me cuz GAY CHARACTERS!...but whatever.  

[jlb524]

And this is what grinds my gears. Nobody should be considered "straight until proven otherwise"... that's a huge mistake. The right should be they have no sexuality until proven otherwise. If you see a dude with a woman or comments for women doesn't necessarily means he's straight. Until he says he's straight, nobody should assume anything.

 

I reallyreally dislike this way of thinking. Seriously.

 

That reminds me, I see people are already playing the "companion sexuality guessing game" on the forums.  I'm not even sure what this could be based on...we know nothing of these characters.  I guess it's just wishful thinking based on the character people want.

[WildOrchid]

That reminds me, I see people are already playing the "companion sexuality guessing game" on the forums.  I'm not even sure what this could be based on...we know nothing of these characters.  I guess it's just wishful thinking based on the character people want.

 

Yes, it's purely based on what people want.

[jlb524]

Eh I figured.

 

It always seemed to me this whole DA2 system vs. exclusive LIs debate isn't really about the sexuality of fictional characters but moreso which demographics has access to which content (and the quality/quantity of said content).

 

I see a lot of people say Vivienne would be the lesbian exclusive romance.  Nothing about her screams lesbian to me, but I think it has more to do with wanting the others available to male PCs.  

 

It looks like Cassandra is pretty popular in general and will be the more important party member and has been featured heavy in advertising (plus, she is a returning character).  She has to be available to men.

 

Then we have 'cute elf female' and they must always be available to men.

 

Vivienne personally appeals to me more than the others at this time but not b/c I get any 'lesbian vibe' from her (I can just as easily see her as straight/bisexual/whatever).

[The Uncanny]

It always seemed to me this whole DA2 system vs. exclusive LIs debate isn't really about the sexuality of fictional characters but moreso which demographics has access to which content (and the quality/quantity of said content).

 

I always want sexayfuntaims with the srsly hawt chick.

 

Cuz ahm just dat shallow, y'all.

[jlb524]

Haha, well I want sexy times with hawt chicks too

[The Uncanny]

Haha, well I want sexy times with hawt chicks too

 

[Rowe]

Over on your 'Limiting Romance Options' thread you brought up Jade Empire and Sky. I think Jade Empire really is a really good example to look to. In terms of handling, it perhaps remains the high bar.

 

Silk Fox actually makes a point of the dangers - and the illicit thrill - of falling for another woman. That was nice.

 

As keen as I am on the approach adopted by DA2, I would like to see more alternate dialogue. Is that really so much to ask? I'm not asking for an entirely different set of dialogue, just some variant lines. Would that really be a huge drain on resources?

 

But then I always want to talk more and shoot/stab less in these games anyway. 

 

That's really cool about Silk Fox, I knew she was an option for females PC's as well, and I figured they'd do the same thing and vary the dialogue, but since I always play as a gay male (when there's the option) I didn't know what that dialogue was; glad they didn't shaft you guys! I'm not putting Jade Empire up as the pinnacle of romances (for one thing they didn't have options  ) but for an early incarnation of Bioware games, they executed the bisexual romances very well! And, since that game, I don't think they've handled it quite as well.

 

I would really love to see the alternate dialogue as well (that's pretty much what my other post boiled down to), it's a good way to keep options open to everyone while doing it in a manner that has a bit more realism to it. I don't like having my gender ignored, I want to be acknowledged as a gay man! I want to have that discussion with my partner.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see since not much is confirmed. I'm not very hopeful though... I assume as well that any fully gay male is likely to be non-companion. Ugh...

[The Uncanny]

I'm not putting Jade Empire up as the pinnacle of romances (for one thing they didn't have options  ) but for an early incarnation of Bioware games, they executed the bisexual romances very well! And, since that game, I don't think they've handled it quite as well.

 

I would really love to see the alternate dialogue as well (that's pretty much what my other post boiled down to), it's a good way to keep options open to everyone while doing it in a manner that has a bit more realism to it. I don't like having my gender ignored, I want to be acknowledged as a gay man! I want to have that discussion with my partner.

 

I think we could certainly do worse than put Jade Empire up there. But yes, some blend of JE, DA2 (and maybe DA:O?) would be nirvana.

 

But why does wanting that make me feel absurdly greedy?

 

Seriously, I feel like Oliver Twist. "Please, Mr BioWare... can I have access to more than one party character as a romance with unique content AND options, plox?"

 

"Greedy girl! Go to the back of the queue and say fifty-seven Hail Marys!"