120 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

They ARE oppressed in this setting. I don't see how it being fiction negates that.

I don't exist in the setting.

Have you noticed that every BioWare game forces you to be a mass murderer? It's fine though because killing people in the setting isn't killing people in the real world.

Do you know why I like the Reaver specialization? Because it involves eating people and I think that's neat. Sometimes, while playing, I like to make little 'om-nom-nom' noises when I activate some abilities.

This doesn't make me a horrible person, or a bad person, or even a mean person. It means I have a weird sense of humor. However, if I did that in the real world, I be locked away for the rest of my life (but at least I'd get a cell to myself!)

[Dean_the_Young]

I think murder knife cultist playthroughs are the best.

 

Basically, you can do whatever else you want, be as nice as you, choose whatever dialogue you want... but as soon as a murder knife dialogue pops up, you have to take it. Every time, no matter how much it seems to break character, because using the murder knife if your character.

[SurelyForth]

My issue with Murder Knife culture in the fandom is the same issue I have with people who get pumped that their Shepards can punch an unarmed WOC in the Mass Effect games- it usually feels like an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases. I mean, yeah, some people like it because it's funny, and some people are completely indiscriminate. But it gets a little chilly when you can't read more than a page or so of a female character's reveal thread without encountering a "I can't wait for her to meet the murder knife post" or "the murder knife will change her attitude." Even if the character is fictional, the desire to permanently silence someone or to use violence to make a person bend to a whim echoes actual violence rhetoric enough to be deeply uncomfortable.

 

This isn't to say that I think that certain situations should be outside the purview of such...justice. The Warden and Loghain, Hawke and Anders...even the prisoner at Ostagar. All of those were scenarios where somebody had committed a crime where death was a suitable punishment within the setting. And "pure dark side" or "pure evil" runthroughs are fun, but within the contexts of those, it's clear the player realizes what they're doing is, you know, evil. A lot of times when I hear people talking about the murder knife, they feel completely justified for killing characters for existing and not being 100% in line with they, the player, thinks they should be, and that's when it gets gross. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I don't have any problems with roleplaying, I usually make at least one evil character, too. The thing thatbothers me is that based on what I've seen in this thread and countless others, people actually agree with this kind of mindset on a personal level.

I'm ok with murder knife in certain situations, but " this person disagrees with me lol better kill them!!!!" is something that I just don't get.

 

I think they are just messing about tbh. 

 

You have to accept that discussions about Thedas are also somewhat within the setting (as weird as that sounds) people use the logic that exists within the game. 

[mikeymoonshine]

My issue with Murder Knife culture in the fandom is the same issue I have with people who get pumped that their Shepards can punch an unarmed WOC in the Mass Effect games- it usually feels like an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases. I mean, yeah, some people like it because it's funny, and some people are completely indiscriminate. But it gets a little chilly when you can't read more than a page or so of a female character's reveal thread without encountering a "I can't wait for her to meet the murder knife post" or "the murder knife will change her attitude." Even if the character is fictional, the desire to permanently silence someone or to use violence to make a person bend to a whim echoes actual violence rhetoric enough to be deeply uncomfortable.

 

This isn't to say that I think that certain situations should be outside the purview of such...justice. The Warden and Loghain, Hawke and Anders...even the prisoner at Ostagar. All of those were scenarios where somebody had committed a crime where death was a suitable punishment within the setting. And "pure dark side" or "pure evil" runthroughs are fun, but within the contexts of those, it's clear the player realizes what they're doing is, you know, evil. A lot of times when I hear people talking about the murder knife, they feel completely justified for killing characters for existing and not being 100% in line with they, the player, thinks they should be, and that's when it gets gross. 

 

Why are you trying to make this a gender thing? Characters like Cullen and Anders are the one's people here most want to kill, Leliana is the only female that gets allot of that and that's just coz she got resurrected. Why do comments about killing a female character make you feel "chilly" but all the stuff about people wanting to kill Cullen and Cole is fine? 

 

It's a game full of fake people and so people here aren't going to be using real life logic when talking about them. 

[TaskCortez]

Have you played Awakening? That way you'd know Justice isn't mindless and respects life. However like Anders said the joining transformed both of them and the outcome wasn't that stable and pretty.

That still makes him responsible for deciding to bond with a spirit. Just like a drunk driver is still responsible for the people he runs over.

like Merill said, there's no such thing as a good spirit.

[TaskCortez]

Im hoping my first stabee can be Cullen, though I doubt it since he's an advisor and not a companion...

Why? He's one of the nicest characters in the series and one of the nicest templars. His character development through the games has been excellent.

And unlike Anders, he's not a cold blooded terrorist that killed innocent people.

[Tevinter Soldier]

My issue with Murder Knife culture in the fandom is the same issue I have with people who get pumped that their Shepards can punch an unarmed WOC in the Mass Effect games- it usually feels like an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases. I mean, yeah, some people like it because it's funny, and some people are completely indiscriminate. But it gets a little chilly when you can't read more than a page or so of a female character's reveal thread without encountering a "I can't wait for her to meet the murder knife post" or "the murder knife will change her attitude." Even if the character is fictional, the desire to permanently silence someone or to use violence to make a person bend to a whim echoes actual violence rhetoric enough to be deeply uncomfortable.

This isn't to say that I think that certain situations should be outside the purview of such...justice. The Warden and Loghain, Hawke and Anders...even the prisoner at Ostagar. All of those were scenarios where somebody had committed a crime where death was a suitable punishment within the setting. And "pure dark side" or "pure evil" runthroughs are fun, but within the contexts of those, it's clear the player realizes what they're doing is, you know, evil. A lot of times when I hear people talking about the murder knife, they feel completely justified for killing characters for existing and not being 100% in line with they, the player, thinks they should be, and that's when it gets gross.

I see your selected mount is an extremely high horse.

Your reading far far too much into it, especially when it's 100% clear most people in this thread, like the one in DA2 forum it's just a bit of fun. I think you'll find the very reason people enjoy playing a character with clearly "dubious" morals is because it's taboo. Some people have a dark sense of humour, if you don't nobody's forcing you to walk into a thread that's quite clearly aimed towards that audience and suggest that such people have underlying emotional issues is being unnecessarily antagonistic.

If you don't enjoy utilising the murder knife rather liberally that's fine and your more welcome to express your pov but I'd suggest you try avoiding labelling others simply for not sharing your rather rigid moral code.

[SurelyForth]

Why are you trying to make this a gender thing? Characters like Cullen and Anders are the one's people here most want to kill, Leliana is the only female that gets allot of that and that's just coz she got resurrected. Why do comments about killing a female character make you feel "chilly" but all the stuff about people wanting to kill Cullen and Cole is fine? 

 

It's a game full of fake people and so people here aren't going to be using real life logic when talking about them. 

 

Because sometimes gender is involved? I didn't realize I had to sit and list all the specifics of why I find a thing creepy. I could, I suppose, but ultimately I used a woman as an example because the response to Vivienne's existence on the BSN left an impression on me. Even before we knew anything about her personality, people wanted to kill her. If you don't understand why I would find that problematic, then I don't know what to say. And while I still find it ridiculous that players want to murder-knife Cullen or Cole at all, at least they have a better concept of who they are and what they've done. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Because sometimes gender is involved? I didn't realize I had to sit and list all the specifics of why I find a thing creepy. I could, I suppose, but ultimately I used a woman as an example because the response to Vivienne's existence on the BSN left an impression on me. Even before we knew anything about her personality, people wanted to kill her. If you don't understand why I would find that problematic, then I don't know what to say. And while I still find it ridiculous that players want to murder-knife Cullen or Cole at all, at least they have a better concept of who they are and what they've done. 

 

Sometimes it is but I am not sure it really is in this case. I dunno, maybe there are some like that who just like the idea of harming women in a game but that hasn't really been a thing in this discussion at least it hasn't from what I have seen. 

 

As for Viv I don't know, allot of people seem to like the idea of knifing mages and elves just for being mages and elves? So maybe it's because she's a mage, maybe it's her outfit, I dunno maybe it is just because she is a woman but is that really how the majority of people here behave? 

 

People don't want to kill Cole and Cullen because of "what they have done" (well maybe some do) people want to kill them because they find them annoying. 

[Panda]

That still makes him responsible for deciding to bond with a spirit. Just like a drunk driver is still responsible for the people he runs over.

like Merill said, there's no such thing as a good spirit.

 

They both are responsible for joining but I doubt either one of them knew what would happen. It's little different than drunk driving since there is lot of information around what damage drunk driving causes and how being drunk affects your actions during driving.

 

Also I don't buy Merrills story. She is one character and that's her view, there is lot of different views in DA universe. She doesn't seem to differentiate spirits from demons, but Justice himself thinks there is difference and it's quite obvious in game too when you confront spirits in fade and demons around world. However spirits can transform to demons what might have happened to Justice when he emerged with Anders, like Anders said his anger changed Justice and he wasn't his friend anymore, he was Vengeance. So Justice became a demon most likely, or probaply slowly during DA2 became it.

 

So I agree that Anders and Justice combining themselves was stupid and irresponsible thing to do. However I see it more like tragedy than that either one of them are bad persons. They both were pretty noble but combination was just really bad.

[Vincent-Vega]

My issue with Murder Knife culture in the fandom is the same issue I have with people who get pumped that their Shepards can punch an unarmed WOC in the Mass Effect games- it usually feels like an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases. I mean, yeah, some people like it because it's funny, and some people are completely indiscriminate. But it gets a little chilly when you can't read more than a page or so of a female character's reveal thread without encountering a "I can't wait for her to meet the murder knife post" or "the murder knife will change her attitude." Even if the character is fictional, the desire to permanently silence someone or to use violence to make a person bend to a whim echoes actual violence rhetoric enough to be deeply uncomfortable.

 

This isn't to say that I think that certain situations should be outside the purview of such...justice. The Warden and Loghain, Hawke and Anders...even the prisoner at Ostagar. All of those were scenarios where somebody had committed a crime where death was a suitable punishment within the setting. And "pure dark side" or "pure evil" runthroughs are fun, but within the contexts of those, it's clear the player realizes what they're doing is, you know, evil. A lot of times when I hear people talking about the murder knife, they feel completely justified for killing characters for existing and not being 100% in line with they, the player, thinks they should be, and that's when it gets gross. 

 

I agree. The disussion reminded me of this: http://www.rockpaper...lence-in-games/.

 

A very interesting read, especially the part about the party troubles me.

[Maria Caliban]

My issue with Murder Knife culture in the fandom is the same issue I have with people who get pumped that their Shepards can punch an unarmed WOC in the Mass Effect games- it usually feels like an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases.

My problem with this is that BioWare games are basically hard core murder simulators.

Darkspawn? Ugly, deformed human beings. And they are represented as a plague to be wiped out. How is that not an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases?

Alternatively, the pretty, mostly white elves? Oh no, we shouldn't oppress them. You know, they're a metaphor for gypsies, Jews, and Native Americans. Please ignore the race that's represented as subhumans whose massive breeding causes them to swarm and overwhelm the (overwhelmingly white) human nations, and whose 'shocking reveal' is that they rape our women.

Yet I still enjoyed DA:O despite parts of it making me wonder why that 2,500 darkspawn killed achievement gave me a dirty feeling.

The thing is, if you don't enjoy killing people, you wouldn't play this game. If you are comfortable killing people who are faceless mooks (or inherently bad/evil) but not those with a name and backstory, I don't see that as being inherently better. Dehumanization is also a questionable psychological trait.

I'm not saying that there aren't misogynistic, racist, or homophobic players. I'm saying that they are no more likely to enjoy killing off named characters than people who only like to kill mooks.

Likewise, the original conversation wasn't about killing women of color, it was about oppressing mages. And I'm kind of tired of people demanding that I don't oppress, insult, or kill fantasy creatures.

Anders isn't a woman of color; he's a white man who made advances towards my female PC and never showed any interest in men in my playthrough. For me, DA II decided that the face of the oppressed was a straight, white dude... because he has a superhuman power?

That like having Thor as the face of the oppressed.

It's the same reason I roll my eyes at the X-men. Mostly white, mostly male, mostly straight heroes who are battling against a world that oppresses them. (though I admit it's gotten better) The most prominent Jewish character? Sometimes literally advocates the destruction of the human race on ground of genetic superiority. How ironic!

[HiroVoid]

It's the same reason I roll my eyes at the X-men. Mostly white, mostly male, mostly straight heroes who are battling against a world that oppresses them. (though I admit it's gotten better) The most prominent Jewish character? Sometimes literally advocates the destruction of the human race on ground of genetic superiority. How ironic!

lol My first thought when you said 'Jewish character' was actually Kitty Pryde.  I'm definitely biased though since she's one of my favorite characters.

[Maria Caliban]

I like Kitty Pryde too.

[mikeymoonshine]

My problem with this is that BioWare games are basically hard core murder simulators.

Darkspawn? Ugly, deformed human beings. And they are represented as a plague to be wiped out. How is that not an outlet for a lot of unpleasant and ingrained biases?

Alternatively, the pretty, mostly white elves? Oh no, we shouldn't oppress them. You know, they're a metaphor for gypsies, Jews, and Native Americans. Please ignore the race that's represented as subhumans whose massive breeding causes them to swarm and overwhelm the (overwhelmingly white) human nations, and whose 'shocking reveal' is that they rape our women.

Yet I still enjoyed DA:O despite parts of it making me wonder why that 2,500 darkspawn killed achievement gave me a dirty feeling.

The thing is, if you don't enjoy killing people, you wouldn't play this game. If you are comfortable killing people who are faceless mooks (or inherently bad/evil) but not those with a name and backstory, I don't see that as being inherently better. Dehumanization is also a questionable psychological trait.

I'm not saying that there aren't misogynistic, racist, or homophobic players. I'm saying that they are no more likely to enjoy killing off named characters than people who only like to kill mooks.

Likewise, the original conversation wasn't about killing women of color, it was about oppressing mages. And I'm kind of tired of people demanding that I don't oppress, insult, or kill fantasy creatures.

Anders isn't a woman of color; he's a white man who made advances towards my female PC and never showed any interest in men in my playthrough. For me, DA II decided that the face of the oppressed was a straight, white dude... because he has a superhuman power?

That like having Thor as the face of the oppressed.

It's the same reason I roll my eyes at the X-men. Mostly white, mostly male, mostly straight heroes who are battling against a world that oppresses them. (though I admit it's gotten better) The most prominent Jewish character? Sometimes literally advocates the destruction of the human race on ground of genetic superiority. How ironic!

 

Interesting read although I think you are only seeing the worst, there are layers to most of this stuff. 

 

Most fiction has violence in it but do you really have to enjoy killing to enjoy it and if that's the case then does the fact that we all enjoy killing on some level mean anything at all? I know I don't enjoy the idea of actual real life violence one bit. 

 

Bioware games are massively about social issue's and oppression,I thought the annoying stereotypes were part of the point? All this stuff is meant to be wrong. 

[Lorien19]

Interesting read although I think you are only seeing the worst, there are layers to most of this stuff. 

 

Most fiction has violence in it but do you really have to enjoy killing to enjoy it and if that's the case then does the fact that we all enjoy killing on some level mean anything at all? I know I don't enjoy the idea of actual real life violence one bit. 

 

Bioware games are massively about social issue's and oppression,I thought the annoying stereotypes were part of the point? All this stuff is meant to be wrong. 

I pretty much agree,there are meant to be social issue's in the DA universe for the reason I have stated before in other discussions...Grey morality,it's not difficult to notice that in Thedas,there's no faction where every single member have their hands clean.
Misconceptions,racism,xenophobia,oppression,slavery and even some mild examples of misogyny and sexism,exist everywhere in the setting.
Although,it must be admitted that these examples of social issues are presented in a negative manner as they should and can be the major factor that determines the morality of your own characters.I have no problem with this kind kind of things existing in fictional settings when I know that it's meant to be kind of gritty and morally grey.

[efd731]

Racism and discrimination: murder knife targets 2014

Edit: "punching a woman of colour"......do you honestly think most people thought tht far? It wasn't about punching a woman, or a poc, it was a bout decking an annoying character who was antagonistic.

[Todd23]

Why? He's one of the nicest characters in the series and one of the nicest templars. His character development through the games has been excellent.

And unlike Anders, he's not a cold blooded terrorist that killed innocent people.

We're talking about Dragon Age Cullen, not fandom Cullen. At first he was just a naive Templar new to the order, but then he was tortured by mages and has ever since dreamed of extinguishing them from the world. Even if you kill all the potentially turned mages in the harrowing chamber he will demand in anger that the other survivors be killed as well (including the children). He then may snap and go on a killing spree (which he did in my profile). In da2 he's the only person to agree with the tranquil all mages plan. But not for the sake of power and control like the man who came up with the plan in the first place. But because he actually believes destroying every man woman and child's soul whom was born with magic is a good thing. He somehow managed to be a more despicable person than Meredith without any red lyrium.

[efd731]

We're talking about Dragon Age Cullen, not fandom Cullen. At first he was just a naive Templar new to the order, but then he was tortured by mages and has ever since dreamed of extinguishing them from the world. Even if you kill all the potentially turned mages in the harrowing chamber he will demand in anger that the other survivors be killed as well (including the children). He then may snap and go on a killing spree (which he did in my profile). In da2 he's the only person to agree with the tranquil all mages plan. But not for the sake of power and control like the man who came up with the plan in the first place. But because he actually believes destroying every man woman and child's soul whom was born with magic is a good thing. He somehow managed to be a more despicable person than Meredith without any red lyrium.

actually, both of you are right, and therefore wrong. Cullen exists in a quantum state, as depending on player choices he can end up with a different backstory for DA:I , an depending on personal preference, this qualifies him for being a mirder knife target.

[rocketmunkey]

I would love to see Murder Knife finally reveal its sentience in the third game, when it tells the Inquisitor about its adventures with the Warden and Hawke, and how it was urging those player characters to killkillkill all the time, even when diplomacy would have made more sense.

Really, if they handle it right, Murder Knife could be the most popular character in DA:I.

 

Throwback to Lilarcor!

 

"My former owner used to say I was "sharp" and "edgy". He was such an ass." 

[Panda]

actually, both of you are right, and therefore wrong. Cullen exists in a quantum state, as depending on player choices he can end up with a different backstory for DA:I , an depending on personal preference, this qualifies him for being a mirder knife target.

 

DAO's endings about Cullen are just rumours though, with some of endings there he wouldn't be able to be in Kirkwall and I think they were confirmed as rumours. I don't see Cullen changing as character or having different backstory according to players previous choices. Well depending who you sided with in DA2 he might have mention but I doubt even that'd change his backstory and his character much. If this was a case some DAI games would have Leliana dead and I doubt that's going to happen, she is alive even if you killed her in DAO. Probaply previous choices are just little mentions in DAI and don't affect characters that's much.

[Wolfen09]

the murder knife is the main boss of da:i

[General TSAR]

I hope there's no murder knife. I find it disturbing how passionate some people are about killing our companions. 

I enjoy killing moronic revolutionaries with Murder Knife. 

[Hydromatic]

The way this forum can take a "kind of not serious" thread, and turn it into a huge discussion is impressive.