71 réponses à ce sujet

[Time Spiral]

Greetings all!

[I have not completed the game. I'm end-game right now, but wanted to avoid possible spoilers in the no-spoilers forum, so try not to give away end-game details please. Thanks!]

I've enjoyed the game enough to voice a little
criticism that can hopefully be cultivated by the QA teams working on
expansions and sequels.

Here is what I'm talking about in regards to the title.

• The story in DA:O is very underwhelming so far. 
• It
  opens like this: Your instantly emersed in a vivid, intense, life or
  death slaughterfest at the hands of a seemingly unstoppable Blight (Myth II: Soulblighter?). A
  villainous betrayal occurs, your bretheren are killed, and you and your
  team are conveniently saved deus ex machina style from the deathtrap of a tower.
• You then formulate a plan to collect an army and stop the blight. So far, sorta good.
• Then it kinda goes downhil from there for me a litt ... Each place you go doesn't give a damn about the Blight!
• "Hey, will you join the war against the blight?", asks the main character.
• "The Blight? Who the hell cares about the blight? We've got our own problems," proclaims the plot-giver.
• "If I solve them for you, will you join my army," asks the main PC.
• "Sure, I guess we'd have to, right?"
• You then embark on a mission that is in no way blight-related, or blight affected (sans Orzammar).
• So, the entire game is solving sub-plots, at your leisure, with some darkspawn battles here and there, to open up the end-game sequence (which I haven't finished yet).

I'm battling Loghain at the Landsmeet now, and then I'm sure we'll battle the Blight next, and probably have to kill the ArchDemon and win the war by beheading the snake. I'm just really hoping there is no deus ex machina style ending going on here. I'll be pissed.

Blight? No big deal, really.

I just felt like the overall story-arc was very fragmented, non-climactic, and very underwhelming. Granted, each sub-story was pretty damn cool, with some amazing history and legend crafting done, but the story does not feel grand or contiguous here. Especially since the majority of the land is, at best, dotted with small easily defeatable bands of darkspawn. Where's the f#$%ing Blight?!

Now, from what I hear, this is pretty standard Bioware story-telling, but what gives?

I want to use this as a spring-board for the discussion, instead of dumping my entire opinion on the opening statement.

Thoughts?

Be peaceful on your way,
Time_Spiraling

[Sandtigress]

I think each place has a "We have our own problems, someone else can help you" kind of attitude, and that's all, really. No one really knows that all the other places you can go to for help are having their own problems, so they insulate themselves in their own troubles and expect that someone else can help you.



Some of the problems are directly related to Loghain's actions - the mages' tower and Arl Eamon's illness. Others are apparently just "bad luck" - the dwarves' civil war and the elves' troubles. And of course, it wouldn't be much of a game if you could just show up to a place, say 'Hey, you're obligated to help me" and they say "Okay, sure, here we come!"



You get a little more feel for a Blight of darkspawn when you approach the Archdemon. There are lots of darkspawn, at least.

[Althernai]

But how would you make the Blight interesting? It's more a force of nature than anything else -- you can get some epic battles out of it and of course endless hordes of nameless creatures for you to slaughter without any moral uncertainty, but other that what can it do? To really build a story around it, you need to let it talk to you in some way and they've saved that for the expansion.

[beelzeybob]

Play more origins. You will get more of a feel for the entire story.



You may not think those darkspawn on land are a lot, but even the fact that they are up on land makes it a blight. Without an archdemon they just hide out in the deep roads and torment the dwarves.

[Creature 1]

Most people don't believe it's a Blight. There are always darkspawn causing trouble. But there hasn't been a real Blight in 400 years.

[Godak]

You know? I have to laugh at the whole "Flemeth saving the Grey Wardens from the tower at the last moment" every single time. It's quite possibly the most forced part of the game. We should of had to escape the tower from whatever tunnel the darkspawn entered. That's really one of the low-lights of the game, for me.



And I have to agree, the story doesn't feel continuous. That's the problem with open-world games that dip into the "World-Devouring-Evil" narrative. It quickly turns into "World-Devouring-Evil-That-Must-Be-Stopped-Oh-I-Need-To-Do-That-Quest-For-Farmer-Joe". It hurts even more, because we hardly hear anything about the darkspawn activities except "Oh, yeah, Lothering was taken. Oops." At the very least, we could hear about some military group that is holding back the darkspawn horde, for the time being. Or did the darkspawn take a vacation and go to Disney Land?



Also, the entire last hour of the game was pretty lame. Oh, yeah, the darkspawn bypassed all other villages/towns and went RIGHT to Denerim. Not to mention the fact the Orlesian Grey Wardens STILL hadn't shown up. How long has it been? A year? More?! Lazy bastards.

[Joshd21]

During the Blight, everyone is focused on their own goals. You have to consider the average life span of humans is around 80 years max to 100. A blight comes once every four hundred years, the last Blight that came the grey warden were not so few in numbers. They did not desperatley cling to get aid

Pretty much it was done effortlessy, as Wynn talks about the Grey Wardens standing in front of the men, not moving an inch and the horde was defeated. Everyone is in their own thing, for example The Eleves are focused more on The Curse because it's their clan and they are in no way to help you untill they get better

Arl of Redcliff, his town is under attack by a demon and nearly having his village wiped out. The Dwarf's simply can't go to war untill they have a King. It's like the person who controls and sends out everything. They are not simply washing their hands at the situation

Dwarf's also fight the horde everyday down in the deep roads. They are more used to seeing it then usual and The Magi's, well their tower is nearly wipped out and entire circle along with all Magis nearly destroyed by a rouge Blood Mage

I'm not seeing your thing about where everyone suggests its not a big deal. If you go to Lothering, you can see the people around, see how people are worried and scared. Just because that doesn't exist in every single city doesn't mean they don't care

But everyone is focused on something, not as if the magi could help you with them locked in that tower, or the eleves could help when they can't even defend themselves. It's a great experience, though you must settle these matters and at the end they do take it seriously

you see all four legions come up and combine a massive army. I'm not sure where you are getting this from

[Sandtigress]

Godak wrote...

And I have to agree, the story doesn't feel continuous. That's the problem with open-world games that dip into the "World-Devouring-Evil" narrative. It quickly turns into "World-Devouring-Evil-That-Must-Be-Stopped-Oh-I-Need-To-Do-That-Quest-For-Farmer-Joe". 

This part, I think it depends some how you play the game.  My two elves were goody-two-shoes, as will be my upcoming female human noble, but my mage is a jerk, and not all that willing to help others.  I didn't do any of the quests in Redcliffe, for instance, and left the town to die, because he couldn't be bothered.  Not his business.  He'll have to do some quests to get his job done (I imagine its Alistair back there poking him saying "Hey, remember that Blight thing?  You're supposed to be a Grey Warden, so act like one!").  Otherwise, maybe you're just a good person who can't stand to see people in need.  Or you're a greedy one who sees opportunities on your journey to earn a little money or some items.

In any case, I don't think it has to necessarily detract from the storyline of the game.

Also, the entire last hour of the game was pretty lame. Oh, yeah, the darkspawn bypassed all other villages/towns and went RIGHT to Denerim. Not to mention the fact the Orlesian Grey Wardens STILL hadn't shown up. How long has it been? A year? More?! Lazy bastards.

Don't forget - they tried to show up and Loghain's men turned them away.  That's why Riordan ended up going in alone, to see what was going on.  The Orlesians, I believe, were asked to come again, after Landsmeet was settled.  That gives them maybe a few weeks, instead of a year.

[biomag]

People sometimes underestimate how long it takes to assembly an army and get it marching. Especially a horde. Also some seem to forget that Fereldan's internet and satellite TV are a little... slow... and finally, 400 years of raids and no blight.



If you put this parts together you see a different picture. For example elves:

You live in your forest and do your thing. Your clan gets attacked by werewolves, your keeper says they are !THE EVIL! and half your warriors are transforming into werewolves or already dead. While everything is... well, lets just say a little messy... a stranger shows up. Never seen, never heard of and he starts screaming "I Grey Warden, you elves, there blight, come and fight it, I got a piece of paper that is 400 years old! Yeah, its a little dusty, but there blight, look! Scary!"

So while your little world is already breaking apart and you aren't that sure that you family will survive the next day, a crazy guy demands from you to fight a danger you just know from myths (well at least if you listened to your story teller). Naturally, your reaction is to pack your war gear and leave the wood to follow this guy you never heard of...



I would dare guess that the other parts of Fereldan had also their buisness going even before they heard the RUMOR about the blight. So maybe they weren't that ready to follow this vagabond nobody into a war against something that most probably doesn't even exist or hasn't been there for centuries.



The blight itself isn't under time-pressure. Their deadline is quite far away and they already taken the most important strategical position (Ostghar). Without an easy defensible position their numbers should do the rest. Especially if they don't try to sweep their enemy and force them to recognize that this ain't bigger raids, but a blight. Without the Warden the dales and the humans would be separated by the horde by the time the blight reached Denerim and Redcliff would be already surrounded.



On the other hand, the rulers of Fereldan and Co should simply read more often the newspaper or at least some blog on the internet... just to stay up to date and don't miss some global news...

[Palentor]

Actually all the parties involved are concerned about the danger of a possible Blight in one way or another, it's just that more pressing and much more 'real' problems keep them from honoring the promises given in the old treaties.

For the timeline being left rather open and leisurely, well, the opposite would be very linear and somehow forced gameplay. Not a lot of fun in my opinion.

And you hear about refugees, Civil War, political unrest as much as you would while experiencing a civilisation during the Dark Ages.

The Orlesian Army and Wardens, by the way, were denied to enter Ferelden and turned back at the border, as you learn in the game, thanks to Teyrn Loghain.

Escaping the Tower of Ishal through the same tunnels the Darkspawn used to undermine the defenses at Ostagar? Yes sure, very likely. A rather unblooded pair of young Grey Wardens succeed where a whole army is whiped out?

And Denerim was not the first target to be attacked by the Blight. The Darkspawn moved northward through the Bannorn towards Denerim. You might miss the fact that the Archdemon only gives an common intent/purpose to the horde of Darkspawn, it is not a general with a strategic battle plan, nor has it to be.



On another note, the events described in the story of The Lord of the Rings took place during one year, much the same. Armies were gathered, allies had to be convinced of the 'Evil brewing in the East', battles were fought.

[Gold Dragon]

Not to mention the fact that, to the Dwarves, a Blight is actually a RESPITE. When the Darkspawn aren't on the surface, they attack the Dwarven cities constantly.

[Time Spiral]

Awesome discussion so far!

I like a lot of the points brought up, and many of them make sense from an in-game logical viewpoint. But that doesn't change the fact that the story feels fragmented, and underwhelming.

Bioware does an excellent job of creating a world that is alive, legendary, and just simply put: full of life. When you're exploring it feels like a real place. It does this so well in fact, that it might even be to its own detriment.

From a story-telling viewpoint, there are several pitfalls that they fell into. Now, I realize this is ultimately a game, and not a story, but the words RPG connote a deep immersive story. And we have that, they are just broken into 5 largely unrelated pieces.

A couple of the common pitfalls in story-telling i've noticed:

• deus ex machina (the tower rescue)
• Backstory / Exposition. While important in creating depth, and realism, you can often create a sense that the backstory is more interesting than the one you're reading (or in this case, playing). In conventional storytelling, this pitfall generally occurs in the form of "flashbacks"
• Starting your story in the wrong spot.

It's easy to say "well I understand why it's like that," and then cite in-game dispositions. That's kinda missing the point. I'm not saying the game doesn't make sense logically, I'm saying the story feels fragmented, and underwhelming. 

The third point in the list above is a critically important one, and one that is super hard to get right. It's been implied that "they're saving all the good stuff for DLC, or part 2" in which case one could argue that the game was started in the wrong spot ... Well, not wrong, but from a story-telling viewpoint, a less advantageous starting point.

You guys picking up what I'm putting out there?

Be peaceful on your way,
Time_Spiraling

[biomag]

Time Spiral wrote...

Awesome discussion so far!

I like a lot of the points brought up, and many of them make sense from an in-game logical viewpoint. But that doesn't change the fact that the story feels fragmented, and underwhelming.

Bioware does an excellent job of creating a world that is alive, legendary, and just simply put: full of life. When you're exploring it feels like a real place. It does this so well in fact, that it might even be to its own detriment.

From a story-telling viewpoint, there are several pitfalls that they fell into. Now, I realize this is ultimately a game, and not a story, but the words RPG connote a deep immersive story. And we have that, they are just broken into 5 largely unrelated pieces.

A couple of the common pitfalls in story-telling i've noticed:

• deus ex machina (the tower rescue)
• Backstory / Exposition. While important in creating depth, and realism, you can often create a sense that the backstory is more interesting than the one you're reading (or in this case, playing). In conventional storytelling, this pitfall generally occurs in the form of "flashbacks"
• Starting your story in the wrong spot.

It's easy to say "well I understand why it's like that," and then cite in-game dispositions. That's kinda missing the point. I'm not saying the game doesn't make sense logically, I'm saying the story feels fragmented, and underwhelming. 

The third point in the list above is a critically important one, and one that is super hard to get right. It's been implied that "they're saving all the good stuff for DLC, or part 2" in which case one could argue that the game was started in the wrong spot ... Well, not wrong, but from a story-telling viewpoint, a less advantageous starting point.

You guys picking up what I'm putting out there?

Be peaceful on your way,
Time_Spiraling

[*]Ok, now I am getting it. Well yes, you got some valid points. But maybe its just me, I like the way it is. As you said it, the world feels real. There many layers of stories coexisting and influencing your experience. It also doesn't feel like ME 1, were each side quest had this "pizza-service" touch that got you out of the story... yeah, I am the big great hero, but I have to bring this important pizza to the guy xy on the planet z and while I am doing that, the galaxy has to wait.
[*]DAO didn't have this part. It feld right. Either the quest were really small, so that your character didn't get lost or they were important to achive your main goal, defeating the blight.
 

[Joshd21]

Time Spiral wrote...

Awesome discussion so far!

I like a lot of the points brought up, and many of them make sense from an in-game logical viewpoint. But that doesn't change the fact that the story feels fragmented, and underwhelming.

Bioware does an excellent job of creating a world that is alive, legendary, and just simply put: full of life. When you're exploring it feels like a real place. It does this so well in fact, that it might even be to its own detriment.

From a story-telling viewpoint, there are several pitfalls that they fell into. Now, I realize this is ultimately a game, and not a story, but the words RPG connote a deep immersive story. And we have that, they are just broken into 5 largely unrelated pieces.

A couple of the common pitfalls in story-telling i've noticed:

• deus ex machina (the tower rescue)
• Backstory / Exposition. While important in creating depth, and realism, you can often create a sense that the backstory is more interesting than the one you're reading (or in this case, playing). In conventional storytelling, this pitfall generally occurs in the form of "flashbacks"
• Starting your story in the wrong spot.

It's easy to say "well I understand why it's like that," and then cite in-game dispositions. That's kinda missing the point. I'm not saying the game doesn't make sense logically, I'm saying the story feels fragmented, and underwhelming. 

The third point in the list above is a critically important one, and one that is super hard to get right. It's been implied that "they're saving all the good stuff for DLC, or part 2" in which case one could argue that the game was started in the wrong spot ... Well, not wrong, but from a story-telling viewpoint, a less advantageous starting point.

You guys picking up what I'm putting out there?

Be peaceful on your way,
Time_Spiraling

 

Are you aware that every person you come into contact with, ties into the game? They did not just throw a bunch of monsters and random NPC's for storyline. For example, if you played a Dwarf orgin you meet Javiar, the woman who runs the cartel business. However if you started playing say as a

Human Noble, you would have no idea who Javiar is or her backstory. Playing as a casteless Dwarf you see her storyline devlop, and there is the backstory every person that you interact with is tied into the game and you interact with them in one way or another. I think they done an impressive job that ties every person you interact with into main story

Another example if you played as a Human Mageyou would meet Jowan in the early stages, discover about his plans to run away and given the situation he is in. That would make him being captured and Logan sparing him in return to posion the Arl of Redcliff understandable

If you played as a city elf, you would know the guy  in the lower dungeons of Howes dungon. How he treated the elfs etc, however if you only played One Orgin, then you would be at a great disadvantage. Everyone has a story and a good back story, every person interacts with you in the game

and it's not like they are shown up without notice saying "we are monsters and here to destroy you" backstorys and depth have been explained in a way I doubt any other video game has shown. Considering that you understand the choices people have to make

Let's make a list

Eleves, Their Keeper has lived a very long time and the Werewolf's seek to spread the thing to their clain. They are in the middle of the forest and leave anytime humans get too close. The people started dying when werewolf's attacked, if they could

they would have defeated winterfang but they could not on their own. When your PC shows up, you expect them to drop that they are dying thing and support you without question. Consider that a for a moment, showing up without warning and asking them to use what eleves they have to your cause

Next

Arl of Redcliff,

He has been posioned by Jowan, Logan made him an offer to spare his life. His son hoping to keep his father alive made a pact with a demon which demon takes control of his body. The demon starts to slaughter their entire village, each night the creatures come and it gets worse

Now you show up where people are dying the entire town is nearly wipped out, expect them to forget about his son being controlled by a demon and aide you without question. They are concerned about the Blight, more concerned about living through the night

Next

The Dwarf's through their story, it said son of king had killed his brother in order to get the throne. The King dies and speaks to Harrmount which says he doesn't want him to take the throne. So all their forces and rescources are spent on fighting each other

Think of it like the reb and dem, and untill someone is elected they can do anything. Each is focusing their time to try to win the votes of the others. Then you show up, without warning in the middle of this and ask for aide. They couldn't help you in that situation

Also consider Grey Wardens never had much issue tackling a Blight, and not everyone knows about ostargar and what happended there, nor do many people care, such as eleves and dwarfs though they will unite in order to save themselfs along with you

[Palentor]

It might feel fragmented, but that's the price of trying to give a non-linear feeling. It's more of a telling the story by your actions, than being told the story and live by it.

I tried something like that a few years back while game-mastering a P&P RPG round. Instead of writing one adventure for the group with a enjoyable, but rather linear, story, I wrote a set of smaller adventures into a campaign and let the players decide how they would go about it. Each of them had different motivations to do one of the various adventures first, and the hot in-game discussion that followed was almost priceless, even though I had to intervene after about one hour later and sort things out for them by taking away the choice and linearizing the campaign for them.

They said pretty much the same as you when I asked them later what the problem was...it was too 'fragmented'.

To be honest, I actually enjoyed it in DA:O. My Dalish Elf went for his people first, the mage right to the Tower, the human noble headed to Redcliff without a second glance, and the dwarven noble could follow his urge to tend to unfinished business in Orzammar. There was the freedom to choose the way to go about the business, but at the price of having to write my own story with the parts given by Bioware.

So you have the Prologue/Intro to the story, your Origin, the various Chapters, or Main Quests, and the Grande Finale. All in themselves quite linear in their storytelling. How you go about connecting the parts is up to you, and without meta-gaming they make sense in any order.

I for one don't think there is any saving up the good parts for later, may it be an expansion or sequel.

This is the story of an unlikely hero saving a country from a threat, and his/her adventures while doing so.

[Sandtigress]

I've done my games in similar fashion, Palentor.



My Dalish elf went for her people first - it was more comfortable than trying to deal with all the humans. The City elf went for Redcliffe to see Arl Eamon, since she had no real pressing reason to see anyone else first. The Circle and the Temple followed to save Eamon and his family, then the elves because she wanted to see her Dalish kin.



My mage went to Redcliffe because he doesn't want to go back to the Tower. I think he will do something rather despicable once he gets there, since he doesn't care for Chantry rules. We'll see.



In any case, the various origins and then the party that you form pull the story together for me. We go to various places for a reason, not just to go there.



Perhaps the feelings change based on how much you want to RP the story, and how much you just want to play a game. I can see it feeling disjointed if all you want to do is quest hop and get the story done. If you treat it as your individual character's journey with motivations and logic behind the decisions, it doesn't feel so cobbled together.



As for Flemeth's "deus ex machina" rescue, we should keep in mind that there was a purpose for her rescuing you two specifically - namely to have two newly made Grey Wardens rather than someone important like the King (not a Warden) or Duncan (too long a Warden). Her choice in saving you was deliberate and not hardly the act of kindness she tries to play it off as being.

[SusanStoHelit]

I agree with Palentor. I don't see any way of making it less fragmented (which I don't deny it is) except by making us follow a linear story of A -> B -> C ->D etc. And I simply wouldn't want that.

In my experience, real life is a series of fragmented events. Linear stories are simply too neat and connected to be believable. The fragmentation, and the way people focus on their own issues and problems instead of seeing the big picture makes it more 'real' for me.

My life has not been a nice, neat series of events. All connected, all following nicely on from each other, and where everyone focuses on 'what's important'. If yours has been otherwise, you're lucky indeed - or maybe you're young, lol.

Fragmentation + 'self-centred' behaviour = reality.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:21 .

[Addai]

Surprise surprise, a story uses... plot devices! The trick is to use them well, not that you have to use them. Every story does. I personally think the Dragon Age story does very well. There are very few places... right now I'm not thinking of any, actually... where I thought, "ok, that's a little cheap."

Would it have been a more interesting game had everyone immediately acquiesced to your request for troops? There's no story if things go just as you plan them to. Although I do think the writers slipped in an inside joke when Alistair says, after you hear about the werewolves, "It seems you have your own problems, what are the odds!"

Modifié par Addai67, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:24 .

[Addai]

Godak wrote...

You know? I have to laugh at the whole "Flemeth saving the Grey Wardens from the tower at the last moment" every single time. It's quite possibly the most forced part of the game. We should of had to escape the tower from whatever tunnel the darkspawn entered. That's really one of the low-lights of the game, for me.

And I have to agree, the story doesn't feel continuous. That's the problem with open-world games that dip into the "World-Devouring-Evil" narrative. It quickly turns into "World-Devouring-Evil-That-Must-Be-Stopped-Oh-I-Need-To-Do-That-Quest-For-Farmer-Joe". It hurts even more, because we hardly hear anything about the darkspawn activities except "Oh, yeah, Lothering was taken. Oops." At the very least, we could hear about some military group that is holding back the darkspawn horde, for the time being. Or did the darkspawn take a vacation and go to Disney Land?

Also, the entire last hour of the game was pretty lame. Oh, yeah, the darkspawn bypassed all other villages/towns and went RIGHT to Denerim. Not to mention the fact the Orlesian Grey Wardens STILL hadn't shown up. How long has it been? A year? More?! Lazy bastards.

You didn't get any random encounters where darkspawn were attacking?  Odd...

If you were a general planning a coup, would you not conceivably choose a surprise attack on the capital city, particularly when the bulk of the armies are elsewhere?  Re. Orlesian Grey Wardens, Riordan tells you that they decided not to enter Ferelden.  Lest the Orlesian GW's meet the same fate at Loghain's hands that the Ferelden ones did.  What good would that do anyone?

Sorry, but it seems to me that there was plenty of detail in the game fleshing the story out, you just weren't paying attention or something.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:32 .

[RangerSG]

Indeed, Flemeth's rescue, far from being "Cheap" comes with a pretty high price tag in the end. And it's not at all a simple dues ex machina. Is it convenient for the characters? Sure, but she has a personal stake in her choice. And it's not just to be goody-goody for you.



Honestly, if you invest in the story and start asking questions and reading the codex and digging, you will see that just about 'everything' is related to the main story in some way. If all you do is quest hop and not think about the consequences, then you've missed the backstory, and then it can't be helped if you failed to understand.



And I have to wonder why people would not have their own concerns. And if you think people won't follow their own interests as the world burns around them, read Josephus' account of the Jewish War in 70AD. Biased it may be by his own cowardly actions in it. But the account of the leaders inside the city trying to kill each other while the Romans were destroying the city is a classic description of human nature.

[Genoq]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I agree with Palentor. I don't see any way of making it less fragmented (which I don't deny it is) except by making us follow a linear story of A -> B -> C ->D etc. And I simply wouldn't want that.

I think the problem with DAO is that it's still A B C D, just not necessarily in that order. Ever play Fallout 2? In that game the story was "go find a G.E.C.K", that's it; how or when you found the G.E.C.K, or even IF you found the G.E.C.K, was entirely up to you (yes, you could complete the game without ever finding a G.E.C.K). Depending on where you go, what you do, and who you meet, the game could take anywhere from 50+ hours to 45 minutes. It is completely open-ended, with no hand-holding, plot events, or plot critical items or characters you have find.

The result was a game that was radically different each time you play, but never once felt fragmented.

[JosieJ]

I agree with those who said that this is a game that just gets better with replay. You play a different origin and run into characters you encountered before in previous playthroughs, but all of a sudden, their actions make so much more sense, seen in a different perspective. You're always uncovering more layers of the story, and the more layers you uncover, the more coherent it becomes.



It also helps to set aside some time to read the Codex. It's so incredibly detailed and gives a huge amount of backstory. I know some people find keeping up with the huge number of entries distracting, but it really does help set the scene.



Am I going to argue DA:O is the best story ever told? No, I wouldn't argue that. Still, I'm impressed by the world the devs have created, and the detailed story and characters they've presented.

[SusanStoHelit]

Genoq wrote...

I think the problem with DAO is that it's still A B C D, just not necessarily in that order. Ever play Fallout 2? In that game the story was "go find a G.E.C.K", that's it; how or when you found the G.E.C.K, or even IF you found the G.E.C.K, was entirely up to you (yes, you could complete the game without ever finding a G.E.C.K). Depending on where you go, what you do, and who you meet, the game could take anywhere from 50+ hours to 45 minutes. It is completely open-ended, with no hand-holding, plot events, or plot critical items or characters you have find.

The result was a game that was radically different each time you play, but never once felt fragmented.

No, but I've played FO3 and Oblivion. And you're right, open world stories have their own charm. I really love them. But Bioware doesn't do such stories. Their focus and their expertise lies elsewhere. The characters in open world games I find to be far less fleshed out, I don't know their story or their motivation; history and culture are dealt with in a very sketchy manner; and so on.

In other words - you can't have your cake and eat it too. Game developers have to concentrate time, effort, and money on something (or perhaps several somethings); there aren't the resources to do it all, let alone do it all in a reasonable time frame.

In an ideal world, an rpg would have the complex world history and culture, and the fascinating character interactions of  DAO-  in combination with open ended quests and open worlds that you can really explore (like Oblivion). And other things too, that I won't bother to enumerate. In other words, we'd get a perfect game.

I would so love that.

Of course, we'd still have the problem that my perfect game might not be your perfect game.

[Edited for idiocy by the author. I just can't type today.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 23 janvier 2010 - 02:21 .

[RangerSG]

Oblivion isn't even the best game in it's own franchise.

[Time Spiral]

Way too much great feedback to possibly quote everyone and respond accordingly.

But, a few things that stood out to me, and a few things I'd like to say:

• I don't dislike the game, I love it! And I'm happy to criticize the shortcomings, which are undoubtedly shaped by my opinions. A perceivable shortcoming to me, is a joy to someone else, or a joy to me if I were to be in a different mode of life during the experience.
• I just don't buy the A/B mentality where you either "have choice" or "have a story". Clearly not everyone believes this to be the case, but I have seen a few that believe fragmentation and lack of immersion is an unavoidable side-effect of having an "open-world" choose your own adventure storyline. I don't buy it for a second. Sounds like a knee-jerk defensive reaction. We all love DA:O. No need to get defensive. We're all adults (right? Oh **** ... maybe not ...)
• Encounter the Foot, then save the humans, save the dwarves, save the elves, save the wizards, fight the traitor, fight the Foot, fight shredder, fight super-shredder. I'm not saying it was 100% fragmented, with no silver cord connecting the dots, I'm saying it was too fragmented to be a deeply immersive story-arc.
• Plot devices. I completely agree that plot devices are not bad, or necessarily detrimental. Someone pointed out, rather accurately, that plot devices are tools. You can either do a good job or a bad job with them. It's not the use of the devices I'm criticizing, it's the outcome/result.

Since we're moving this discussion along rather nicely ...

I'd rather not keep rehashing the same points. We've done a great job expounding on this particular mode of thinking. Now, in the same vein, let's change gears and talk about the creativity factor.

• (A) Did DA:O really bring anything new to the table?
• ( Did you experience wonder, and fantasy, like you've never imagined?
• © Was that ( their goal?

(A) DA:O did an truly remarkable job of creating an alternate reality medieval fantasy Europe, writing hundreds of years of history, and really creating the feeling like you were in a real place. Unfortunately for me, it felt like a place I've been many times before, just with a fresh coat of paint. Not that, that's necessarily a bad thing. I'll break open a Dragonlance book, and have a VERY clear expectation of what I'm going to experience, but the greats always find a way to make it new.

There seemed to be a lot of more of the same in DA:O.

( Parts that really stood out as creative, and fantastic: The Sloth Dream World. What a great sequence! I loved it! But it just seemed like the envelope was not pushed too heavily. I'm not saying I know how to push the envelope, or how it should have been done, I just know that it wasn't. I didn't feel like I was in a fantasy world. I felt like I was in Earth 2, about 800 years ago + magic. I got a lot of the same feeling from ME1. Is this really an alien world?! Feels a lot like ... exactly what I'd expect Earth civilization on another planet to be like.

© I'm not convinced that was their goal. I think they wanted to make a familiar, comfortable, SP WRPG, that stratched a certain nastalgic itch, filled a gap in the marketplace, and made sure the WoW'ers felt welcome. So, by all means, it is a great and excellent product, but I think it is natural to watch a brilliant musician covering Free Bird, and feeling a little dissappointed when you know there's an original masterpiece waiting to come out if they just focused on that concept.

I think many of the short-comings can be drawn back to this root.

You guys are great! Let's see if the thread continues to morph and envolve from here.

Be peaceful on your way,
Time_Spiraling