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Fallout 4: What Would You Like To See?


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#126
AventuroLegendary

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Yeah, Willow was really well done. Half a million DLs and close to 13K endorsements says a lot.

 

Only one criticism; she needed Boone's  combat AI package. Then she would've been perfect! :D

 

Seriously, it makes one wonder why the hell a AAA Studio can't churn something like that out by the dozens.

 

Is there an appearance change mod for Willow? I find it kind of weird how one has a limitless supply of shampoo and conditioner in an age where beans in a can are a luxury.

 

 

BioWare romances' quality aren't exactly my cup of tea -- In general for video games it's a different story. Because it exists in a lot of the most well-regarded games and some do it better than others.

 
I find that the best examples of game romance still tend to be filled with problems. Doesn't mean devs should stop trying.


#127
Senya

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Has someone posted a hope for an actual romance option in Fallout yet?

 

I was a sad gamer when I learned they cut out the Cass content. :(


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#128
TheChris92

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I find that the best examples of game romance still tend to be filled with problems. Doesn't mean devs should stop trying.

Not me -- I find there are plenty of fantastic games that are narratively driven by love, like Silent Hill 2, Shadow of the Colossus, Persona & Catherine, Red Dead Redemption, Alan Wake, Enslaved, Half Life 2 (there are plenty of implications of feelings towards Gordon, despite the fact that he has the personality of a cardboard cut-out but it's okay, because Gordon is characterized through his actions and how the people interact with him) Lost Odyssey, in fact a lot of JRPGs involve love as a main motivator.


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#129
Abraham_uk

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Has someone posted a hope for an actual romance option in Fallout yet?

 

I was a sad gamer when I learned they cut out the Cass content. :(

You know what?

The only games I've played with romance options are Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

I don't count Skyrim "romances" as romances. There is something missing in those "romantic" interactions.

 

Are New Vegas romances handled better than those of Skyrim?



#130
Abraham_uk

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Not me -- I find there are plenty of fantastic games that are narratively driven by love, like Silent Hill 2, Shadow of the Colossus, Persona & Catherine, Red Dead Redemption, Lost Odyssey etc.

All you need is love. Da, na, na, na, naaa.

All you need is love, love. Love is all you need. :whistle:


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#131
Senya

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You know what?

The only games I've played with romance options are Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

I don't count Skyrim "romances" as romances. There is something missing in those "romantic" interactions.

 

Are New Vegas romances handled better than those of Skyrim?

I got this epilogue for my favorit companion/"love interest":

 

Spoiler

 

Damn it, Obsidian!



#132
TheChris92

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All you need is love. Da, na, na, na, naaa.

All you need is love, love. Love is all you need. :whistle:

You get a thumbs up for that Beatles reference and the assumption that it isn't meant as snark at my expense. :P


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#133
TheChris92

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I'd like to clarify something though -- The thing is that I don't see romantic intimacy with Bethesda's population of 1's & 0's to be quite encouraging.. Bethesda isn't that great in the writing department so I feel it would ultimately backfire. One would also have to remember how modern Fallout and Elder Scrolls games are build, and the challenge they provide in implementing actual characters with deep and complex personalities, who don't look like they are trying to kill you with their gaze in those awkward conversation phases. It end ups turning into a mini-game that feels more or less like a chore as opposed to something that adds depth to the story. This is why it works mostly better for JRPGs or games that aren't RPGs because it's easier to work around and implement the love-story angle with more precision. :)



#134
Abraham_uk

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I'd like to clarify something though -- The thing is that I don't see romantic intimacy with Bethesda's population of 1's & 0's to be quite encouraging.. Bethesda isn't that great in the writing department so I feel it would ultimately backfire. One would also have to remember how modern Fallout and Elder Scrolls games are build, and the challenge they provide in implementing actual characters with deep and complex personalities, who don't look like they are trying to kill you with their gaze in those awkward conversation phases. It end ups turning into a mini-game that feels more or less like a chore as opposed to something that adds depth to the story. This is why it works mostly better for JRPGs or games that aren't RPGs because it's easier to work around and implement the love-story angle with more precision. :)

Man. That would be a good comment for a Western versus Japanese/Asian RPG's debate. (South Korea and China have made some RPG's too).



#135
AventuroLegendary

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Not me -- I find there are plenty of fantastic games that are narratively driven by love, like Silent Hill 2, Shadow of the Colossus, Persona & Catherine, Red Dead Redemption, Alan Wake, Enslaved, Half Life 2 (there are plenty of implications of feelings towards Gordon, despite the fact that he has the personality of a cardboard cut-out but it's okay, because Gordon is characterized through his actions and how the people interact with him) Lost Odyssey, in fact a lot of JRPGs involve love as a main motivator.

 

Yeesh, I only played 2 of those. I meant, more or less, about WRPGs where romances can come off as wish fulfillment more than anything. I guess some Bioware romances can come off as that.

 

 

I'd like to clarify something though -- The thing is that I don't see romantic intimacy with Bethesda's population of 1's & 0's to be quite encouraging.. Bethesda isn't that great in the writing department so I feel it would ultimately backfire. One would also have to remember how modern Fallout and Elder Scrolls games are build, and the challenge they provide in implementing actual characters with deep and complex personalities, who don't look like they are trying to kill you with their gaze in those awkward conversation phases. 

 

I disagree, at least in the case of New Vegas. It has plenty of characters with personality and color, which makes for a more personal relationship between the MC and the world. I've had a more intimate relationship with my platonic life partner Cass than I did with any "character" in Skyrim.



#136
TheChris92

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I disagree, at least in the case of New Vegas. It has plenty of characters with personality and color, which makes for a more personal relationship between the MC and the world. I've had a more intimate relationship with my platonic life partner Cass than I did with any "character" in Skyrim.

 

I'm a vocal supporter of Obsidian and their writing, but the small amount of romantic content they've written isn't that great, which I suppose is reflected in Avellone's view of romance as a concept. But I don't know what the entire team like Sawyer, or any of the other writers and designers think. No matter what though, New Vegas is still held back by its sandboxy nature and non-restricted narrative to provide any strong chemistry and coherent love story which ultimately boosts the overall story as a whole.



#137
Gravisanimi

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It would be pretty great to focus on the body language and facial expressions while talking so it doesn't feel like I'm talking to a mannequin.

 

I'm going to be spending a good deal of the game doing it, so why not?



#138
TheChris92

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It would be pretty great to focus on the body language and facial expressions while talking so it doesn't feel like I'm talking to a mannequin.

 

I'm going to be spending a good deal of the game doing it, so why not?

That was an issue I had too, which I brought up in my previous comment -- Every conversation looked like they were trying to kill me with their gaze. I especially liked how in Oblivion, time, for some reason, would be brought to a halt when conversing with people, so occasionally you'd see some random berk in the background stopped in mid-walk. It was quite unintentionally hilarious though.



#139
AventuroLegendary

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I'm a vocal supporter of Obsidian and their writing, but the small amount of romantic content they've written isn't that great, which I suppose is reflected in Avellone's view of romance as a concept. But I don't know what the entire team like Sawyer, or any of the other writers and designers think. No matter what though, New Vegas is still held back by its sandboxy nature and non-restricted narrative to provide any strong chemistry and coherent love story which ultimately boosts the overall story as a whole.

 

I think one of my praises for New Vegas over the years has been that it's able to be a sandboxy type RPG while still being a canvas for smaller narratives and well-focused characters, cake had and eaten. Self-contained quests aren't good examples but they certainly got the job done for Boone, Cass and Veronica.

 

I think that the Sandbox gameplay can even strengthen character relationships, as a matter of fact. The way your companion reacts to their surroundings and other NPCs can immerse you with the fact that there's another "person" sharing in your exploration. The little remarks and dialogue Lydia had in the Dragonborn DLC were great but still had more potential.



#140
Barbarossa2010

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I'm good with no romance in FO....especially if they will use the time they save to make better weapon sounds, explosive FX, add 30-06 ammo, and work on the rest of my personal FO4 to-do list.

 

Honestly, in a game like FO with the world as the main character, the need for pixelated sex is fairly close to nil for me...although I do understand how it rounds out the overall experience for many.



#141
Barbarossa2010

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I thought the "Canvas of smaller narratives" was well shown through the DLCs, with their overarching story arc and characters, and the allusion to it all throughout the main game; Christine, Elijah, Joshua Graham, Ulysses, the Divide, etc.

 

Agreed.



#142
TheChris92

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I think one of my praises for New Vegas over the years has been that it's able to be a sandboxy type RPG while still being a canvas for smaller narratives and well-focused characters, cake had and eaten. Self-contained quests aren't good examples but they certainly got the job done for Boone, Cass and Veronica.

 

I think that the Sandbox gameplay can even strengthen character relationships, as a matter of fact. The way your companion reacts to their surroundings and other NPCs can immerse you with the fact that there's another "person" sharing in your exploration. The little remarks and dialogue Lydia had in the Dragonborn DLC were great but still had more potential.

New Vegas one upped itself by providing plenty of dialogue with characters like Cass or Veronica, as one would get more rep with each of them for sure -- But they are ultimately still just mercs following you around, who sometimes will spout the same lines over and over and act inorganically because the game wasn't build as a party-centric RPG like all BioWare games. Chris Avellone once said that he believes the best stories in a game are those that weren't deliberately scripted, but occurs out of circumstance. I, somewhat agree with him, at least for games like New Vegas, but it also adds to the fact that -- This is how sandbox games are designed and with that in mind it's less easy to get as attached to these characters as it would be in a JRPG or an RPG with a stronger narrative focus.



#143
AventuroLegendary

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New Vegas one upped itself by providing plenty of dialogue with characters like Cass or Veronica, as one would get more rep with each of them for sure -- But they are ultimately still just mercs following you around, who sometimes will spout the same lines over and over and act inorganically because the game wasn't build as a party-centric RPG like all BioWare games. Chris Avellone once said that he believes the best stories in a game are those that weren't deliberately scripted, but occurs out of circumstance. I, somewhat agree with him, at least for games like New Vegas, but it also adds to the fact that -- This is how sandbox games are designed and with that in mind it's less easy to get as attached to these characters as it would be in a JRPG or an RPG with a stronger narrative focus.

 

I somewhat agree with you. New Vegas and games similar to it mostly shift the focus of attention on the self, the player. Most of the quests are designed to be completed, as such, by an individual. There's another thing that holds back games like NV and that's the "blank slate". The main character doesn't share any history with the characters or the struggles they face so it becomes impersonal quick (fanfiction and headcanon not withstanding). That doesn't mean it can stay impersonal, however.

 

With time, the player can get involved. What could be, let's say, an ordinary quest where you kill an entire bandit hideout, complete with a "boss", becomes something personal for the main when he has someone else in tow. They encouraged making bonds with NPCs via the companion wheel, added dialogue and questing elements. The "same lines over and over again" doesn't bother me, considering how JRPGs and story-focused WRPGs are sometimes guilty of that. For all sandbox games have against them in the story department, I believe they can use loopholes and different tactics to circumvent most of them, if given enough time and practice.

 

Perhaps this is a day and age of limited resources where I'm asking for too much so I'll accept what we have for now.

 

On another note, where did Chris Avellone say that? I think I'll understand more with some context.



#144
TheChris92

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I somewhat agree with you. New Vegas and games similar to it mostly shift the focus of attention on the self, the player. Most of the quests are designed to be completed, as such, by an individual. There's another thing that holds back games like NV and that's the "blank slate". The main character doesn't share any history with the characters or the struggles they face so it becomes impersonal quick (fanfiction and headcanon not withstanding). That doesn't mean it can stay impersonal, however.
 
With time, the player can get involved. What could be, let's say, an ordinary quest where you kill an entire bandit hideout, complete with a "boss", becomes something personal for the main when he has someone else in tow. They encouraged making bonds with NPCs via the companion wheel, added dialogue and questing elements. The "same lines over and over again" doesn't bother me, considering how JRPGs and story-focused WRPGs are sometimes guilty of that. For all sandbox games have against them in the story department, I believe they can use loopholes and different tactics to circumvent most of them, if given enough time and practice.

I don't see it this way at all -- Sandbox games like New Vegas always feel too impersonal with its inhabitants of 1's & 0's, plus the non-linearity breaks the sense of flow where I just stop caring and won't continue playing. This is what the Elder Scrolls game did too. New Vegas was a bit better because the writing of Obsidian kept it interesting, with the occasional interesting characters, like that one Major voiced by Kris Kristofferson or Cass.
 
Chris Avellone has made this opinion of his clear repeated times before.. Here's one such case.

Another example would be his appearance at PAX East along with Gaider & Ken Levine discussing Plot & Play.

Avellone argues that the best story is created by the player using the systems and tools placed into their disposal by the designer, as opposed to crafting a scripted scenario, you'd litterally create your own "ultimately let the systems and the player's interaction with those actually create their own story. The main example was namely, New Vegas.

 

"One particular example that comes to mind is .. Josh Sawyer, who was playing through Fallout New Vegas for the second time. And he decided to ****** off both factions in the game, who hate each other. And when you ****** off either faction in the game, assassins will attack you, which is pretty typical for showing reputation mechanics in games.

But because he had chosen to ****** off both factions, which is something we hadn't accounted for, he woke up in the Mojave Wasteland one morning to find that both assassin squads had spawned in but rather than attack him, they launched at each other, murdered each other, and Josh just went by, whistled, looted all their corpses... And I could have spent like a month and a half trying to do a narrative design solution that would set up that situation, but because of the mechanics Josh was able to have a story all his own because of his actions in the environment." ~  Chris Avellone



#145
TheChris92

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Anyway, I think I've said my piece of Fallout, so I'm quitting the discussion and going to bed.



#146
AventuroLegendary

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I don't see it this way at all -- Sandbox games like New Vegas always feel too impersonal with its inhabitants of 1's & 0's, plus the non-linearity breaks the sense of flow where I just stop caring and won't continue playing. This is what the Elder Scrolls game did too. New Vegas was a bit better because the writing of Obsidian kept it interesting, with the occasional interesting characters, like that one Major voiced by Kris Kristofferson or Cass.

 

The amount of care comes from how much you personally want to invest, I guess. You could maintain the flow yourself, however you see fit or just drop it altogether. I won't disagree that more linear games like JRPGs will always be able to convey better pre-existing, written narratives, since the developer is leading the story, not the player.

 

I think what I'm trying to say is that the combination of narratives, primarily player-driven with a developer's writing in the background, is one of the things that made New Vegas dandy. I've had a lot of fun reading into the history of the Sierra Madre while I was having fun in being chased by ghost people in Dead Money. In Fallout 3, weirdly, I needed to buy some slaves to advance a certain quest. As soon as I tried to talk with the slave dealer, he acknowledges my history of slights against slavers and had his guards open fire. The example you put out highlights the animosity between the two groups story-wise. Now, don't get me wrong. There are games that can thrive purely on the player's own story. Not only New Vegas but also Crusader Kings 2 or Mount and Blade, where the players can weave stories out of random events and they certainly drive home Avellone's point.

 

There's a place for both types of stories in sandbox games, just that more linear games will always do one type better.



#147
Pateu

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Fallout isn't the place for romance.

 

That universe is so dark and fucked up that romance simply doesn't fit.



#148
TheChris92

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Fallout isn't the place for romance.

 

That universe is so dark and fucked up that romance simply doesn't fit.

Yeeess, it's quite dark what with whacky Super Mutants running around and silly robots and dumb scientific logic to how nuclear radiation works.

 

 

 
 

 

The amount of care comes from how much you personally want to invest, I guess. You could maintain the flow yourself, however you see fit or just drop it altogether. I won't disagree that more linear games like JRPGs will always be able to convey better pre-existing, written narratives, since the developer is leading the story, not the player.

 

I think what I'm trying to say is that the combination of narratives, primarily player-driven with a developer's writing in the background, is one of the things that made New Vegas dandy. I've had a lot of fun reading into the history of the Sierra Madre while I was having fun in being chased by ghost people in Dead Money. In Fallout 3, weirdly, I needed to buy some slaves to advance a certain quest. As soon as I tried to talk with the slave dealer, he acknowledges my history of slights against slavers and had his guards open fire. The example you put out highlights the animosity between the two groups story-wise. Now, don't get me wrong. There are games that can thrive purely on the player's own story. Not only New Vegas but also Crusader Kings 2 or Mount and Blade, where the players can weave stories out of random events and they certainly drive home Avellone's point.

 

There's a place for both types of stories in sandbox games, just that more linear games will always do one type better.

 

For you, maybe, but not for me -- Small random side stories and quest with no red herring to keep the main motivation going isn't fun and it loses its sense of flow quite quickly -- Playing Fallout for the story is ultimately for naught because the game is too busy distracting you with all sorts of random nonsense, and then the driving point of what you were really supposed to be doing disappears into all this noise. I suppose some people like this, they like that there isn't any overarching story to keep the game interesting, and prefer murdering the random mooks of the gigantic brown landscape that is Fallout.. But I really don't because it plants this idea into the game that it should just keep going on for enternity, there's never an ending to it. I get that people like this but what I dislike about it is partially the notion that developers think all games should adapt this concept, which is just downright stupid. A story won't be emotionally engaging for long, when random number generators come out of nowhere to ruin the fun.. it draws itself on too long. I like KOTOR 2 more than Obsidian's New Vegas because it knows when to end, while also providing the freedom of which way you wanna approach the story, with some occasional side questing, and never steering too far away from the larger point This goes back to what Avellone says. It's a story driven by coincidence and randomness of two random NPCs suddenly deciding to attack each other because the AI is sometimes thick as pig ****.

Investment would also entirely depend on whether or not the game actually engages you enough to even bother with that. You don't buy games so you can go around making your own stories, you've got game developers and writers for that -- If I wanted to make my own story I'd do it but I do not. But that's my own opinion on that so I guess all has been said and done about this now.



#149
ObserverStatus

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Romances suck in video games.

obviously you've never played Hatoful Boyfriend


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#150
Nate Assassin

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Romances are not for games but for real life.
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