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Is this going to be an RPG or a novel?


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#76
Beerfish

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All you snippy pretentious people, the OP's question was primitively simple:

 

Is this gonna be a number-crunchy RPG like Dragon Age Origins or a "click here for awesome" dudebro RPG like Dragon Age 2?

 

The answer: a meld of both, much like Mass Effect 3, which is less dissatisfactory for old-timey CRPG players, but not too complicated for newcomers to learn.

 

So long as nobody calls it "a perfect jumping-on point", I think this is as good as we're gonna get with modern BioWare on development.

 

No offence, to each his own, etc, etc.

No the answer is 'how the hell would we know?'  Why people ask these questions that are impossible to answer until after the game out is beyond me other than they want to stir the pot.  Is this going to be a good rpg the way I like them or another type?  Please tell me, I want to know now in case I don't want to pre order it.


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#77
Giantdeathrobot

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Ah yes, another thread about ''what is an RPG?''. Because that's totally not an excuse to have (game you like) be a True RPG and have (game you don't like) be a False RPG.

 

If what the OP want is more story reactivity and branching paths, I'm all for it. Origins was much better about it than DA2, that's for sure. It's probably the best effort Bioware ever did in that respect, honestly. Certainly more than in Mass Effect or KOTOR or Baldur's Gate. To say nothing of Icewind Dale where you pretty much had to make up the story in your head. So I actually think the company has been steadily better about it as time goes.

 

If people mean the number-crunchyness of the ruleset, well I do think they could make Dragon Age's more complex, but anything moving towards D&D is an absolute no-no in my eyes. I still can barely bring myself to play Baldur's Gate 2 due to the terrible ruleset, and Neverwinter Nights just made me give up. I also dearly hope people don't want to take the D&D ruleset as used in RPGs as an example of using non-combat skills.

 

I actually think DA2 did a nice job of revamping the base combat mechanic. It just needed a bit more polish and depth. And of course a not godawful encounter design but that dead horse has been beaten down so much it's not even a smush on the ground anymore.



#78
Truffle

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All you snippy pretentious people, the OP's question was primitively simple:

 

Oh, it was simple alright. Let's insinuate that anybody who likes or considers DA2 to be an RPG as being stupid with poor taste.

 

What better way to get answers from people to questions nobody can answer anyways?



#79
In Exile

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I wouldn't even go that far. By the time you get close to the Landsmeet your warriors are just about out of worthwhile talents, and even while you're going up the trees there isn't too much variation.

 

I suppose you could level up the archery tree, but archery is generally useless, so if you're relying on actually switching to range you're doing it wrong anyway (at least if you're power gaming). Otherwise you've got more unique things to dump points in compared to DA2's requirement to double up to unlock a total tree, but IMO if you're not playing on nightmare upgrading is far more optional. 

 

Having recently replayed DA2 on Hard I can't see how people think DA2 had no strategy while DA: O did. I had to pay a lot more attention to battles during 2 than Origins, and I actually think enemy waves contributed to that. Hate management was more difficult as I had to corral new enemies more often on warrior, I couldn't blow all my mage CC spells one after another on the first wave, etc. Cross-class combos promoted party diversity instead of "roll Arcane Warrior with Morrigan and Wynne and whoeveritdoesntmatter." You can't potion spam.

 

I found it very enjoyable, but then again I'm on console which Origins' system doesn't exactly thrive on.

 

DA2 is harder on nightmare than DA:O even if you're powergaming. 

 

 

If people mean the number-crunchyness of the ruleset, well I do think they could make Dragon Age's more complex, but anything moving towards D&D is an absolute no-no in my eyes. I still can barely bring myself to play Baldur's Gate 2 due to the terrible ruleset, and Neverwinter Nights just made me give up. I also dearly hope people don't want to take the D&D ruleset as used in RPGs as an example of using non-combat skills.

 

I actually think DA2 did a nice job of revamping the base combat mechanic. It just needed a bit more polish and depth. And of course a not godawful encounter design but that dead horse has been beaten down so much it's not even a smush on the ground anymore.

D&D is a horror that should be obliterated from our collective memories. And yeah, it goes without saying DA2 encounter design is pure garbage. 



#80
Wulfram

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I think DA2 is more less broken than it is harder.  Though utilising the broken stuff can make DA:O easier.

 

Though I think a big reason why people see DA:O as having more strategy is simply friendly fire forcing a bit more of a considered approach to AoEs and positioning.  Which of course also exists on DA2 nightmare.


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#81
Tajerio

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I think DA2 is more less broken than it is harder.  Though utilising the broken stuff can make DA:O easier.

 

Though I think a big reason why people see DA:O as having more strategy is simply friendly fire forcing a bit more of a considered approach to AoEs and positioning.  Which of course also exists on DA2 nightmare.

 

Agreed entirely.  DA:O's combat is really not its strong suit.  DA2 I think overcorrected for some of the flaws I saw in DA:O, so I'm hoping for DA:I to hit the pendulum in the middle of the swing.



#82
Medhia_Nox

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For whatever reason - Bioware put to bed the only chance for a "real" RPG on the computer.

 

The Neverwinter Nights Toolset - DM/Player Clients are the closest to tabletop I've ever seen.

 

DA:I will be a CRPG though - whether you will like it OP, nobody can tell you.



#83
Malsumis

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In Fallout: New Vegas, you could pretty much ignore the main story.

 

It's overarching story the mojave desert and who controlled it, allowed multiple ways to complete it(NCR, Caesar ,Mr House and anarchy).

 

Compare that to DA:O dead or alive, DA2 Mage/Templar, ME3 RGB.

 

Lets examine another example of choice F:NV has over them; speech checks. New Vegas has skill, attribue/special, feat, karma and reputation checks that play out in dialogue. These can lead to something as drastic as different quests and outcomes, to something as minor as altered dialogue. All decided by the choices you've made when building your character.

 

DA:O Had intimidate and persude(minor dialogue changes), DA2 had none and the ME series had paragon/renegade(their best display, but binary and no skill building).

 

To be honest, I've never thought story(main arc) was bioware's strong point, for me it's always been their characters, lore/world and side quests that are the highlights. Which is why I find this obssession with bioware stories, bemusing. And the aversion to choice many display on these forums.



#84
In Exile

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It's overarching story the mojave desert and who controlled it, allowed multiple ways to complete it(NCR, Caesar ,Mr House and anarchy).

 

Compare that to DA:O dead or alive, DA2 Mage/Templar, ME3 RGB.

 

Lets examine another example of choice F:NV has over them; speech checks. New Vegas has skill, attribue/special, feat, karma and reputation checks that play out in dialogue. These can lead to something as drastic as different quests and outcomes, to something as minor as altered dialogue. All decided by the choices you've made when building your character.

 

DA:O Had intimidate and persude(minor dialogue changes), DA2 had none and the ME series had paragon/renegade(their best display, but binary and no skill building).

 

To be honest, I've never thought story(main arc) was bioware's strong point, for me it's always been their characters, lore/world and side quests that are the highlights.

 

DA2 had the personality speech checks, which varied ideal outcomes (e.g. siding against the qunari if you were aggressive). This was a weird way of doing it, but still, it was sort of there. 



#85
In Exile

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I think DA2 is more less broken than it is harder.  Though utilising the broken stuff can make DA:O easier.

 

Though I think a big reason why people see DA:O as having more strategy is simply friendly fire forcing a bit more of a considered approach to AoEs and positioning.  Which of course also exists on DA2 nightmare.

The thing is, even if you avoid the really broken abilities (storm of the century, force field tanks, etc.) the game still isn't that hard. 



#86
Remmirath

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We won't know how much of an RPG it'll be until we play it. That's quite difficult to discern from previews. I have hopes that it'll do better at it than DA II, but we'll see. I'm sure it will at least be an RPG, and more of one than some games, but whether I'd call it a good RPG or not certainly remains to be seen. There are definitely some hindrances towards that goal present in it.

All RPGs are in essence a choose your own adventure novel.


True enough (for cRPGs, of course). So are adventure games, and action games with stories and any choices to be made. The difference between the RPG and the others is how much you are in control of your character and how much freedom you have to create them.

Most people don't dislike IWD because it's a D&D game (though do, but that's because I think D&D is a terrible ruleset that should burn in fire). We dislike IWD because it shouldn't be a real RPG - there's no party, you''re just a hive-mind group of faceless automatons who murder enemies for XP.


Although I would put it in a completely different way, that's exactly why I think Icewind Dale is far closer to a real RPG than DA II or Mass Effect or many other games. There is a party; it's a party of six PCs. There are simply no NPCs tagging along with your characters. How mindless or not the PCs are depends entirely on you.

Some people, I suppose, really don't enjoy making characters, or really enjoy having only one and picking up NPCs along the way. Icewind Dale's not the game for them. Me, I really like having the freedom to make my characters, and I prefer making the whole party because it gives greater replayability. I find Baldur's Gate ideal, as one can play it with a full created party and it has a much stronger story, but Icewind Dale is still one of my favourite games.
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#87
In Exile

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Although I would put it in a completely different way, that's exactly why I think Icewind Dale is far closer to a real RPG than DA II or Mass Effect or many other games. There is a party; it's a party of six PCs. There are simply no NPCs tagging along with your characters. How mindless or not the PCs are depends entirely on you.

 

They are mindless. The game world does not recognize their independent existence: they are object designed to commit murder and nothing else. If you want to design some elaborate fantasy that these are real people, that's no different than creating an elaborate fantasy about your X:COM EUs lives and families before joining the team, and writing fan-fiction about the team dynamics between missions. 

 

I love making characters, but the mindless murder objects that you create in IWD aren't characters. They don't have backgrounds in the game. They don't have history. They don't have connections. A character is more than an elaborate fantasy that exists only in my head. 

The game would play exactly the same way if I head-cannoned that my part was a group of time traveling robots from the planet Glarbox 22 preparing the world for the invasion force, after having ripped the flesh from the corpses of some humans lying about. 



#88
Spectre Impersonator

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Most likely, a novel. As we all know, novels are best experienced on game consoles and PCs. Can't wait to read George R. R. Martin's next one on my Xbox One.



#89
Thandal N'Lyman

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Hey!?!  I loved IWD!  (Although that doesn't mean what In Exile says about it isn't true.)



#90
Remmirath

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They are mindless. The game world does not recognize their independent existence: they are object designed to commit murder and nothing else. If you want to design some elaborate fantasy that these are real people, that's no different than creating an elaborate fantasy about your X:COM EUs lives and families before joining the team, and writing fan-fiction about the team dynamics between missions.


In other RPGs of the era the independant existence of the NPCs are also not recognised in many ways. Conversations don't flow differently if you have an NPC do the talking in Baldur's Gate, for instance. The only thing they are lacking in Icewind Dale compared to NPCs is dialogue.

And yes, there is a difference, and I'm sure you see that there is. One set of characters you created. One set you didn't.
 

I love making characters, but the mindless murder objects that you create in IWD aren't characters. They don't have backgrounds in the game. They don't have history. They don't have connections. A character is more than an elaborate fantasy that exists only in my head.


Well, technically, I'd say that a character that only exists in your head still is a character. An author's character is still a character before they begin writing the novel featuring that character; it's just that nobody is aware of that character yet.

Technicalities aside, a fully realised character of someone else's creation is surely a character, but if I'm not the one making the decisions about that character (who they are, and not just what they're doing now), to me that's anywhere from a very limited roleplaying game to not a roleplaying game at all. It could be fun, but it's something else. They don't need to have backgrounds in the game. Many games don't specify your character's background beyond a certain point. Before coming to the Academy in NWN, for instance, the character could've been doing just about anything. Yes, it's preferable when the world reacts to your characters individually, but I wouldn't say it's required -- and if the price of reactivity is an inability to choose, I'll pay the other price of lessened reactivity instead.

Out of curiousity, do you feel the same way about Temple of Elemental Evil?

The game would play exactly the same way if I head-cannoned that my part was a group of time traveling robots from the planet Glarbox 22 preparing the world for the invasion force, after having ripped the flesh from the corpses of some humans lying about.


Which, I would say, gives you more freedom to play whatever characters you want. I'm not saying that Icewind Dale doesn't have flaws -- it certainly does -- but it is a roleplaying game, and the game not reacting to a decision you make about your character is better than not allowing you to make that decision for yourself (except taken to ridiculous extremes, of course). The dialogue is pretty primitive with few options and it rarely allows you to express very different personalities in it, different characters aren't treated differently within the party, and it's overall very linear. I'll surely not deny any of that. But it lets you make whatever character you want, and that's a good thing.

No cRPG will ever be able to react completely to your characters the way the GM would in a face-to-face game, at least not for the forseeable future, but constraining your character to an extremely narrow range of options is not the way to go. There's middle ground to be had in world reactivity to your specific character/character constraint between Icewind Dale and Mass Effect, and so far I'd say that DA:O is probably the best compromise.

#91
In Exile

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In other RPGs of the era the independant existence of the NPCs are also not recognised in many ways. Conversations don't flow differently if you have an NPC do the talking in Baldur's Gate, for instance. The only thing they are lacking in Icewind Dale compared to NPCs is dialogue.

 

And yes, there is a difference, and I'm sure you see that there is. One set of characters you created. One set you didn't.

 

Which RPGs are we talking about? Fallout 1 and 2 had an entire personal story crafted around the background of the PC as the Vault Dweller/Chosen One. BG1 had an incredibly set background for the protagonist as raised at Candlekeep, plus your fixed destiny of being the Bhaalspawn. There was one protagonist for that game, even if you could create more murder automatons to control. Planescape Torment was crafted specifically to your pre-existing (complex) history; it was the main driver of that world. 

 

As for "NPCs" doing the talking in BG1, if I could actually find screens, I'd show you that the game clearly assumes that the person doing the talking is the Bhaalspawn. There are particular dialogues that only work for the Bhaalspawn talking, regardless of who you start the conversation with.

 

Well, technically, I'd say that a character that only exists in your head still is a character. An author's character is still a character before they begin writing the novel featuring that character; it's just that nobody is aware of that character yet.

 

 

 

An RPG is nothing like a book, because you're not the architect of everything that isn't the party, the ruleset of the world is out of your control, and you can't drive toward a particular endgame. Drawing a parallel between writing and RPG-character creation is a non-starter because what a writer does and what an RPG player does are nothing alike. 

 

The player does have an active role unlike a reader, but it's very limited in scope, to particular emanations of a character. 

 

 

 

Technicalities aside, a fully realised character of someone else's creation is surely a character, but if I'm not the one making the decisions about that character (who they are, and not just what they're doing now), to me that's anywhere from a very limited roleplaying game to not a roleplaying game at all. It could be fun, but it's something else. They don't need to have backgrounds in the game. Many games don't specify your character's background beyond a certain point. Before coming to the Academy in NWN, for instance, the character could've been doing just about anything. Yes, it's preferable when the world reacts to your characters individually, but I wouldn't say it's required -- and if the price of reactivity is an inability to choose, I'll pay the other price of lessened reactivity instead.

 

A fully realized character created by someone else is embedded in the world. If we are talking about writers, that character is an important interrelated part of narrative being created. You can't just isolate that person from the world; he or she is part of what allows that world to exist. Your murder automaton is not such a thing. In writing, if my character suddenly changes gender, sexuality and species, that alters the world or story. The RPG murder automaton is irrelevant  - nothing about the object you create changes the world. It is literally a blank slate whose defining characteristics have no value. 

 

A RPG absent reactivty isn't an RPG - it's a combat simulator that requires you to construct an elaborate fantasy so that your murder automaton is something is a character. 

 

Out of curiousity, do you feel the same way about Temple of Elemental Evil?

 

 

 

I think TOEE is a D&D combat simulator, yes. Just like Diablo is a hack&slash PC game. I consider IWD and Diablo to be the same thing - because in either case I can construct an elaborate mental fantasy about what my murder machine is supposed to be as an entity. 

 

Which, I would say, gives you more freedom to play whatever characters you want. I'm not saying that Icewind Dale doesn't have flaws -- it certainly does -- but it is a roleplaying game, and the game not reacting to a decision you make about your character is better than not allowing you to make that decision for yourself (except taken to ridiculous extremes, of course). The dialogue is pretty primitive with few options and it rarely allows you to express very different personalities in it, different characters aren't treated differently within the party, and it's overall very linear. I'll surely not deny any of that. But it lets you make whatever character you want, and that's a good thing.

 

 

 

It doesn't let me make a character I want, because a character I want express views, has ties to other persons in the world, and exists as something other than a machine that kills, robs graves, strips the dead of their valuables, and unlocks doors and chests.

 

The very fact that I could headcannon that my created part in IWD is a time-traveling group of flesh eating aliens from Zorblax 22 or a party of adventurers from Tinckledove, Illinois who were summoned into the dimension by an evil sorcerer makes the notion that I can create whatever character I want meaningless.

 

I can close my eyes and fantasy hundreds of characters right now. But I can't play them in an RPG, because the game reacts to nothing. 

 

No cRPG will ever be able to react completely to your characters the way the GM would in a face-to-face game, at least not for the forseeable future, but constraining your character to an extremely narrow range of options is not the way to go. There's middle ground to be had in world reactivity to your specific character/character constraint between Icewind Dale and Mass Effect, and so far I'd say that DA:O is probably the best compromise.

 

 

 

Let me preface this by saying: let's ignore PC VO and dialogue inputs for the moment and focus simply on the character design and the specificity of the set background. DA:O constrains your character exactly as much as ME does. You have a set background, set pre-existing relationships, a defined mission against evil that you can't turn down given to you by someone else, and freedom to choose the errands that you will run for people in different areas while ostensibly achieving your own goals. 

 

The problems between DA2, DA:O and ME1-3 don't come in terms of the extent to which your character is defined, but to the degree that the actual story as drafted allows you to express different personalities. That's a totally different design issue. 



#92
AlanC9

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As for "NPCs" doing the talking in BG1, if I could actually find screens, I'd show you that the game clearly assumes that the person doing the talking is the Bhaalspawn. There are particular dialogues that only work for the Bhaalspawn talking, regardless of who you start the conversation with.

In an actual BG1MP game, doesn't the Bhaalspawn - the real PC -- handle all dialogue? 

An RPG is nothing like a book, because you're not the architect of everything that isn't the party, the ruleset of the world is out of your control, and you can't drive toward a particular endgame. Drawing a parallel between writing and RPG-character creation is a non-starter because what a writer does and what an RPG player does are nothing alike. 

Note that this is something of a live issue on this board. Some folks really do believe that an RPG should let the player shape "the story," meaning a particular kind of endgame. When I'm in a cynical mood -- which is most of the time -- this comes across as a pretext for advocating a happy ending while pretending that's not what you're after. But I think you know which threads I'm thinking of.

#93
Vilegrim

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Having recently replayed DA2 on Hard I can't see how people think DA2 had no strategy while DA: O did. I had to pay a lot more attention to battles during 2 than Origins, and I actually think enemy waves contributed to that. Hate management was more difficult as I had to corral new enemies more often on warrior, I couldn't blow all my mage CC spells one after another on the first wave, etc. Cross-class combos promoted party diversity instead of "roll Arcane Warrior with Morrigan and Wynne and whoeveritdoesntmatter." You can't potion spam.

 

I found it very enjoyable, but then again I'm on console which Origins' system doesn't exactly thrive on.

 

I disliked the feel of DA2, it felt far more like an MMO with having to hit every cooldown in a button mashing panic, as opposed to queuing up abilities and movements for the party (I did dislike that DA:O only allowed 1 action to be queued, but that was not as massive a thing as it could have been) yes combat was slower in DA:O that, to me was a major plus point, I don't generally like 'action RPGs' Deus Ex and The Witcher get a pass due to awesome storylines and worlds to dive into, but Thedas didn't grab me and pull me in hard enough to forgive the button mash, especially for Hawke, who gave the impression of absolute stupidity to me, with the 'but tho must' of not killing the silly Sister who was out in the docks at night, or ignoring the serial killer on the loose, or Anders in general....



#94
CronoDragoon

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I disliked the feel of DA2, it felt far more like an MMO with having to hit every cooldown in a button mashing panic, as opposed to queuing up abilities and movements for the party (I did dislike that DA:O only allowed 1 action to be queued, but that was not as massive a thing as it could have been) yes combat was slower in DA:O that, to me was a major plus point, I don't generally like 'action RPGs' Deus Ex and The Witcher get a pass due to awesome storylines and worlds to dive into, but Thedas didn't grab me and pull me in hard enough to forgive the button mash, especially for Hawke, who gave the impression of absolute stupidity to me, with the 'but tho must' of not killing the silly Sister who was out in the docks at night, or ignoring the serial killer on the loose, or Anders in general....

 

I can definitely see why the move to action would negatively affect someone who doesn't like action (although once they patched in auto-attack was there really much of a difference there?) I was really just talking about the strategic requirements of fights in DA2, which I found to either equal or surpass those of Origins. Granted, I was an Arcane Warrior in Origins so tactics were those puny things that mortal specializations used. :D



#95
Vilegrim

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I can definitely see why the move to action would negatively affect someone who doesn't like action (although once they patched in auto-attack was there really much of a difference there?) I was really just talking about the strategic requirements of fights in DA2, which I found to either equal or surpass those of Origins. Granted, I was an Arcane Warrior in Origins so tactics were those puny things that mortal specializations used. :D

it very much felt so, that may also have been the combat animations, and especially the teleporting all over the place and parachute troops o' doom destroying positioning (which wasn't he greatest in the first place), but then I am a complete grognard about RPGs *goes back to SRR and BG2:EE*



#96
AlanC9

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it very much felt so, that may also have been the combat animations, and especially the teleporting all over the place and parachute troops o' doom destroying positioning (which wasn't he greatest in the first place), but then I am a complete grognard about RPGs *goes back to SRR and BG2:EE*

 

If reinforcements destroy your positioning, then that just means you have a new tactical problem to deal with.



#97
Vilegrim

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If reinforcements destroy your positioning, then that just means you have a new tactical problem to deal with.

 

 

having them parachute in was a complete immersion breaker.  Having things teleport in a lore that didn't allow it was the same.



#98
AlanC9

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having them parachute in was a complete immersion breaker.  Having things teleport in a lore that didn't allow it was the same.

 

Why are you changing the subject? This has nothing to do with strategy.



#99
Vilegrim

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Why are you changing the subject? This has nothing to do with strategy.

 

 

Ok in the strategy aspect, the teleporting destroys it, the randomly apeparing in mid air without the need to use entrances destroys it, and the immersion breaking meant that I just couldn't care enough to develop a counter to paratroopers, I eventualyl completed the game, in the hope things got better...they didn't. .



#100
AlanC9

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How do enemy reinforcements destroy strategy, again? Because you have to revise your plans? "No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength" - Moltke