@KainD: I'm curious - if you think that, how can you concievably disagree with anyone?
If my goal is to see blood magic as evil - you have made it as equally important as your own. The question then simply is - which one of us ultimately overpowers the other.
You must be either a very powerful man - or a very sheltered one - to promote a might makes right world.
@KainD: I'm curious - if you think that, how can you concievably disagree with anyone?
Read my signature. Other than that, I always argue facts, science, numbers, things that are objective, not opinions. I argue what blood magic currently is according to known lore for example.
If my goal is to see blood magic as evil - you have made it as equally important as your own. The question then simply is - which one of us ultimately overpowers the other.
You must be either a very powerful man - or a very sheltered one - to promote a might makes right world.
There is nothing to promote - might makes right is the world we live in, that's the truth, I just acknowledge it.
I'm not at the top, but not at the bottom when it comes to RL. I enjoy being at the top when I play video games however, and think it's silly when someone tells me that there is something evil about it, when that's how the world functions.
@KainD: We live in two different worlds then.
And please - don't denigrate science with what you're talking about here. There's nothing factual, or scientific, about your personal headcanon. As I stated earlier - my own headcanon about blood magic is very clear - and anything a developer says about it's inherently evil nature makes perfect sense to me as that 'fact' was already well established in two games.
I promote your love of blood magic - I'm sorry you (might) lose out - but you're asserting that 'science' or 'fact' have anything to do with what you're saying as a way to validate your comments and invalidate the opinions of others - is fallacious.
Most fire spells don't just reduce an entire group of attacking qunari to bones.
It's only a retcon for those who didn't want it to be evil.
I base my determination of a thing by the manner in which is it ultimately used - and in two games I have yet to meet a blood mage that is not a self-serving, wretched (at best) individual who's too weak and craven to do anything but resort to self-mutilation. That includes Zathrian, Jowan, Avernus, Uldred, Merrill, Quentin and Orsino.
So - for myself - there's no retcon in saying it was always supposed to be evil. I think it was presented exactly how it was meant.
This is your opinion, which doesn't contradict anything I argue about, it's in a completely different league all together. You argue morals: Blood magic is evil, people who use it self-serving, wretched, weak. Ok, fair enough, but my point is something else.
What I say is - blood magic doesn't have any inbuilt negative consequences for the user, THAT is a retcon I am speaking about. The Camaron Lee said that blood magic has to draw with itself some kind of negative consequences, which is not true. If a person is content with hurting people to gain power, if a person is content with being an outcast among andrastians, if a person studied blood magic correctly and knows what they are doing, everything should be fine. They will dominate the minds of other, they will use powerful destructive magic and they will be successful at it and be happy with their results. It weakens veil? Any magic does. It attracts demons? Any magic does. It doesn't mess with your mind, you don't become mentally unstable due to using blood magic, the fact that a lot of mentally unstable people use it is a different matter.
Basically what Cameron said came across to me as something like: ''crime always pays'':
1) Which is not the truth, many crimes go unpunished and successful.
2) It's subjective. It's evil in your eyes, not evil in mine, perfectly acceptable behavior.
Yet we're told mages are superior to any form of artillery currently available.
Are we? I have read interesting notes in the lore about the firepower of the Qunari artillery vs the Thedas mages (even vs the Saarebas) but I don't recall anything that categorical.
Are we? I have read interesting notes in the lore about the firepower of the Qunari artillery vs the Thedas mages (even vs the Saarebas) but I don't recall anything that categorical.
Depends on the size of the cannon and on talent/training of a mage. Arrows will be arrows though.
This is your opinion, which doesn't contradict anything I argue about, it's in a completely different league all together. You argue morals: Blood magic is evil, people who use it self-serving, wretched, weak. Ok, fair enough, but my point is something else.
What I say is - blood magic doesn't have any inbuilt negative consequences for the user, THAT is a retcon I am speaking about. The Camaron Lee said that blood magic has to draw with itself some kind of negative consequences, which is not true. If a person is content with hurting people to gain power, if a person is content with being an outcast among andrastians, if a person studied blood magic correctly and knows what they are doing, everything should be fine. They will dominate the minds of other, they will use powerful destructive magic and they will be successful at it and be happy with their results. It weakens veil? Any magic does. It attracts demons? Any magic does. It doesn't mess with your mind, you don't become mentally unstable due to using blood magic, the fact that a lot of mentally unstable people use it is a different matter.
Basically what Cameron said came across to me as something like: ''crime always pays'':
1) Which is not the truth, many crimes go unpunished and successful.
2) It's subjective. It's evil in your eyes, not evil in mine, perfectly acceptable behavior.
Way back in 2007 you can read post by the devs talking about Blood magic being tempting and corruptive. Just because we haven't seen it extrapolated into gameplay doesn't make this a retcon.
Ugh, I grow weary of ethical debates around blood magic.
As I stated earlier in the thread, I think the more important point is that they weren't really modeling what a blood mage is properly capable of, nor the dangers of practicing blood magic. The specialization in both DAO and DA2 was more like the "Diet Coke" version of blood magic. And while they could have devoted more resources to that end, I personally am not interested in the specialization and would not want a great deal of effort poured into it, not to the detriment of the warrior and rogue classes.
So, good riddance to blood magic, if it is indeed gone. At the very least, it will result in fewer tedious threads like this one.
Way back in 2007 you can read post by the devs talking about Blood magic being tempting and corruptive. Just because we haven't seen it extrapolated into gameplay doesn't make this a retcon.
You are talking morals again, when I don't. Tempting and corruptive have nothing to do with any of my points, and don't contradict anything I have said. You can call it tempting and corruptive if you want, that's an opinion.
I always found it strange how you use it and the companions seemed oblivious/accepted it, even when you used it in front of them, it did not even raise arguments between those who were adamantly against it.
In Origins if you perform blood magic in front of Wynne in the Circle Tower, she will put you on the spot when you speak to Gregor and the First Enchanter after clearing up the mess left behind. Though I don't recall it happening ever again or with any other character. It does blow that they don't react to it, but at the same time if you have crew members abandoning ship because you use blood magic, it'd leave with you very little to work with when you have to fight.
In Origins if you perform blood magic in front of Wynne in the Circle Tower, she will put you on the spot when you speak to Gregor and the First Enchanter after clearing up the mess left behind. Though I don't recall it happening ever again or with any other character. It does blow that they don't react to it, but at the same time if you have crew members abandoning ship because you use blood magic, it'd leave with you very little to work with when you have to fight.
That conversation wasn't included in the base game, though it can be introduced via mods.
at the same time if you have crew members abandoning ship because you use blood magic, it'd leave with you very little to work with when you have to fight.
I'd love that. I rather have a handful trust worthy people at my side.
Alright KainD, I don't really get your objection to any of this. All the devs did is confirm the fact that Blood Magic is evil, which everyone already knew. If you don't believe evil exists, than from your perspective, nothing has changed, right?
Alright KainD, I don't really get your objection to any of this. All the devs did is confirm the fact that Blood Magic is evil, which everyone already knew. If you don't believe evil exists, than from your perspective, nothing has changed, right?
''Blood magic is an interesting one. Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences. So in Inquisition if we can't bring that across, that consequence across then we won't do it. We're looking at a couple of different options that still give that quasi-evil kind of fantasy element without trying to go into the nitty gritty of blood magic conflicting with other elements, but we haven't landed on which one's going to be there.''
I bolded my problem. I don't care if you call it evil, but there are no special consequences to be had if you are a blood mage, other than not getting along with andrastians. But if you consider fighting andrastians that don't agree with blood magic is a nasty consequence, might as well say that fighting Qunari is a nasty consequence for not agreeing with the Qun, or that fighting darkspawn is a nasty consequence for not agreeing that the world should burn etc.
I wonder if they are gonna pull out a wynne in the broken circle quest that was cut from the game
Basically, she confronts you about using blood magic in the end of the broken circle quest and if you fail in convincing her she and gregior, irving, cullen, and others will attack you....talk about a waste of time.
Good, I approve of that kind of consequence. I am willing to fight for blood magic and kill those that oppose me. To be fair though, I really should've had the ability to recruit Uldred and his crew in that quest.
You are talking morals again, when I don't. Tempting and corruptive have nothing to do with any of my points, and don't contradict anything I have said. You can call it tempting and corruptive if you want, that's an opinion.
There is nothing moralistic about being tempting and corruptive. That is like saying being an alcoholic is only bad from a moral perspective. If blood magic tempts and corrupts the user, the wanting for more power the desire to do whatever you think is necessary. That isn't morals.
The problem isn't limited to andrastians. If it was Morrigan wouldn't have had an issue with blood magic. It isn't that bioware doesn't want you to have evil actions-they are more then willing to let that happen. It is that the naturally corruptive influences from using blood magic can't be implemented in a viable in game way against the PC because ultimately us the player is in no way affected by blood magic use.
Its just like the stupidity of games with alcohol in them that don't truly implement the affects of addiction into the game because we aren't affected by them.
That is like saying being an alcoholic is only bad from a moral perspective.
Sure, being an alcoholic is only bad from a moral perspective, IF that is included in your moral compass.
If blood magic tempts and corrupts the user, the wanting for more power the desire to do whatever you think is necessary.
I fail to see the problem. Power and the ability to do whatever you want is something to strive for.
There is nothing moralistic about being tempting and corruptive. That is like saying being an alcoholic is only bad from a moral perspective. If blood magic tempts and corrupts the user, the wanting for more power the desire to do whatever you think is necessary. That isn't morals.
The problem isn't limited to andrastians. If it was Morrigan wouldn't have had an issue with blood magic. It isn't that bioware doesn't want you to have evil actions-they are more then willing to let that happen. It is that the naturally corruptive influences from using blood magic can't be implemented in a viable in game way against the PC because ultimately us the player is in no way affected by blood magic use.
Its just like the stupidity of games with alcohol in them that don't truly implement the affects of addiction into the game because we aren't affected by them.
Skooma is my Dragonborn Warriors' drink of choice. 
I bolded my problem. I don't care if you call it evil, but there are no special consequences to be had if you are a blood mage, other than not getting along with andrastians. But if you consider fighting andrastians that don't agree with blood magic is a nasty consequence, might as well say that fighting Qunari is a nasty consequence for not agreeing with the Qun, or that fighting darkspawn is a nasty consequence for not agreeing that the world should burn etc.
But that's been well established in the lore as well. That's the reason 99% of the blood mages we meet are insane cackling maleficars who want to slaughter everyone. The Blood Magic makes them more susceptible to demons, who either whisper to them and influence their actions or outright possess them.
All Bioware said is that since they can't come up with a way to show the demons slowly eroding your will inch by inch, they decided to remove Blood Mage as a specialization. That's not a retcon so much as a correction.
But that's been well established in the lore as well. That's the reason 99% of the blood mages we meet are insane cackling maleficars who want to slaughter everyone. The Blood Magic makes them more susceptible to demons, who either whisper to them and influence their actions or outright possess them.
All Bioware said is that since they can't come up with a way to show the demons slowly eroding your will inch by inch, they decided to remove Blood Mage as a specialization. That's not a retcon so much as a correction.
The majority of the blood mages we met were not insane. The actually insane ones were in extreme minority. What you on about?
He's not an idiot for not actually yelling "Please kill me! I'm a blood mage!" at the Circle. He's an idiot for using blood magic in the first place because he's jealous of the Warden. Seriously, he picks the most hated school of magic - the one that's an automatic death sentence - because he's frustrated he isn't that good at magic. To quote the Avengers "Not a great plan."
As for not being able to leave with him: your phylactery was in Denerim. You even have dialogue to that effect.
Loghain asked him to poison Arl Eamon. You have to be a complete moron not to see that this is 1) illegal 2) because it is murder so 3) Loghain clearly is making a power play.
As for the Harrowing, it's incredibly dangerous. Children can't even use magic properly. Putting them in front of a demon is a great way to give that demon a new meatsuit.
No, he's no highly susceptible because of blood magic, he's highly susceptible because he's a moron. If Loghain asking him to poison Arl Eamon looks like a great idea, and if he uses blood magic in the first place because he's jealous with absolutely no plan not to get caught... then if a demon wants he's easy picking.
Yes I agree that Jowan practicing forbidden magic in a building full of Templars because he's jealous of his friends prowess is stupid. I did say that he wasn't very smart didn't I?
The phylactery is in Denerim yes and that's exactly where my mage would be headed. To destroy it. After learning blood magic from Jowan of course.
Loghain could ask any random Fereldan to commit a crime for the good of the country and a fair bit of coin and many would agree. He is a famous hero after all. And the money wouldn't hurt either.
If children are so helpless before demons then why is child possession so rare?
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