314 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Yes I agree that Jowan practicing forbidden magic in a building full of Templars because he's jealous of his friends prowess is stupid. I did say that he wasn't very smart didn't I?

 

Agreed. 

 

 

 

The phylactery is in Denerim yes and that's exactly where my mage would be headed. To destroy it. After learning blood magic from Jowan of course.

 

Jowan's not even a good blood mage, so good luck breaking into the Chantry in the seat of a country. Blood magic doesn't make you god, so have fun being turned into ribbons for something that hardly binds you as a warden to begin with.

 

Loghain could ask any random Fereldan to commit a crime for the good of the country and a fair bit of coin and many would agree. He is a famous hero after all. And the money wouldn't hurt either. 

What was the point to this again? I really don't know what this has to do with anything, as I can't see what you're responding to. Either way, from what I can see, this didn't really refute anything said. 

 

If children are so helpless before demons then why is child possession so rare?

 

Uh, I don't know. Maybe because they are spending their entire adolescence training to combat the dark spirits that whisper in their ears every time they close their eyes, promising to give them whatever they so desire, taunting their every nightly our, and feeding on their basser instincts. That doesn't sound appealing to me at any age, let alone one as a child. Being a mage is not as easy as this question implies. All possession is rare, incase you didn't know, 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Agreed. 

Jowan's not even a good blood mage, so good luck breaking into the Chantry in the seat of a country. Blood magic doesn't make you god, so have fun being turned into ribbons for something that hardly binds you as a warden to begin with.

What was the point to this again? I really don't know what this has to do with anything, as I can't see what you're responding to. Either way, from what I can see, this didn't really refute anything said. 

 

 

Uh, I don't know. Maybe because they are spending their entire adolescence training to combat the dark spirits that whisper in their ears every time they close their eyes, promising to give them whatever they so desire, taunting their every nightly our, and feeding on their basser instincts. That doesn't sound appealing to me at any age, let alone one as a child. Being a mage is not as easy as this question implies. All possession is rare, incase you didn't know, 

 

Jowan dropped a room full of Templars and the First Enchanter with one move. He did that with spellpower lower than the pc. Imagine what the pc could do with it. Besides, who said anything about a brute force assault? The mage could simply enthrall a Templar or priest and have them destroy the vial. 

 

Also, in this scenario we're discussing, my mage runs off with Jowan and never becomes a Warden.

 

I brought up the Loghain thing because you said Jowan was stupid for helping him and I say that he wasn't because many Fefeldans would be willing to help Loghain because he's a national hero.

 

Children are easier targets for demons than adults right? You said so yourself. Practically automeatsuits if they ever encountered a demon right? If they are such easy targets then why is adult possession more common than child possession?

[Tevinter Soldier]

I wonder if they are gonna implemend lyrium addiction in this game?

Originally it was gonna be in dao, but sinde they wanna make this game harder it may make sense.

Maybe the more you use lyrium the less effective it becomes, I doubt they'll include lyrium withdrawal

Lyrium addiction would be awesome especially with templar Inquisitors and withdrawls.

[Vicious]

I'm glad they finally stopped beating around the bush and basically said 'Yes, willingly using a school of magic powered by torture and death, that leaves the user more susceptible to demonic possession and has such uses as mind control and tearing the veil, is evil.'

 

 

Agree. Blood magic was akin to the dark side of the force. Sure, you could dabble in it, but ultimately it was a corrupting force.The deeper you got, the worse the consequences would be. 

 

Problem was player characters saw exactly zero consequence. Only one companion did, and it still had a positive effect on the player (new quest for more XP and loot)

 

Meanwhile everyone else who used the heck out of blood magic turns into a crazed possessed psychopath... players chalked it up to bad writing, silly writing, etc. The intentions of blood magic were lost.

 

 

Better that they cut off access to it NOW if they can't get it right than allow the playerbase to be further confused.

[Mockingword]

Uh, I don't know. Maybe because they are spending their entire adolescence training to combat the dark spirits that whisper in their ears every time they close their eyes, promising to give them whatever they so desire, taunting their every nightly our, and feeding on their basser instincts. That doesn't sound appealing to me at any age, let alone one as a child. Being a mage is not as easy as this question implies. All possession is rare, incase you didn't know, 

If this is happening to mages every night for their entire lives, they would all be legit insane, no blood magic required.

[ladyoflate]

Children are easier targets for demons than adults right? You said so yourself. Practically automeatsuits if they ever encountered a demon right? If they are such easy targets then why is adult possession more common than child possession?

 

It's entirely reasonable to think that magical prowess increases with age the same way physical strength does. Kids just aren't very appealing targets. Connor, if saved, probably ends up stupid-powerful.

[Treacherous J Slither]

It's entirely reasonable to think that magical prowess increases with age the same way physical strength does. Kids just aren't very appealing targets. Connor, if saved, probably ends up stupid-powerful.

 

The childs power will inevitably grow though. The demons surely know this. They're pretty smart. Get 'em when they're young and vulnerable then bide your time until the power is strong. Easy. Demons want into the mortal world period though and weak inexperienced kids are the quickest and easiest way. The magic power is simply a bonus.

[The Elder King]

 
I bolded my problem. I don't care if you call it evil, but there are no special consequences to be had if you are a blood mage, other than not getting along with andrastians. But if you consider fighting andrastians that don't agree with blood magic is a nasty consequence, might as well say that fighting Qunari is a nasty consequence for not agreeing with the Qun, or that fighting darkspawn is a nasty consequence for not agreeing that the world should burn etc.

 
The nasty consequences Cameron talked about, I guess, are attracting demons more easily, weakening the Veil more and corrupting the user.
I don't know if you have problems with those, but it's something that WoT introduced (and if I recall the first/second were already stated somewhere in the past).  

If this is happening to mages every night for their entire lives, they would all be legit insane, no blood magic required.

I think that those 'whispering' aren't the same for every mages. While all are subjected to them, the majority doesn't likely suffer every time/night, and not with the same force. Fenyerel in DA2 suffered a lot from it (he was a Dreamer though), and there was a codex of a female child that suffered so much from it that she requested to be tranquilized.

[Plague Doctor D.]

Correct me if im wrong,but didnt David Gaider say that blood magic isnt inherently corrupting?That the only "corruption" blod mages face is the temptation to abuse it,like any kind of power?

I dont have a source myself,but i saw it being quoted a ton in other "Is blood magic evil?" discussions.

 

Personally,the revelation that blood magic is inherently evil killed a lot of my hype for DA:I,or rather for the franchise as a whole.

And you were doing so good Dragon Age... 

[The Elder King]

Correct me if im wrong,but didnt David Gaider say that blood magic isnt inherently corrupting?That the only "corruption" blod mages face is the temptation to abuse it,like any kind of power?
I dont have a source myself,but i saw it being quoted a ton in other "Is blood magic evil?" discussions.

Personally,the revelation that blood magic is inherently evil killed a lot of my hype for DA:I,or rather for the franchise as a whole.
And you were doing so good Dragon Age...

Don't know when Gaider said that, but I guess that the 'corruption' part in WoT might be interpreted as temptation to abuse it, though many believes that it corrupts the user surely, during time.
The 'revelation' was, as I said, revealed long time ago, at least in the forums where the WoT part on blood magic was discussed a lot.

[andy6915]

If it being "evil and driving the user to be ammoral ahd cruel" is why they took it out... What about reaver? Reavers also get mentally affected by the dragon blood.

 

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Dragon_Cults

 

"That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well."

 

Right there, in written in-game lore. It says it plain as day, reavers have an increased desire to kill and sometimes go insane from it. Reavers actually do get mentally affected according to actual lore (not a book written years after the fact like WOT was), which is in fact much more evidence than blood magic has of the same thing seeing as no in-game lore has EVER said anything like that about blood magic. So according to the actual codex, reavers are actually more kill crazy and insane than blood mages... Yet reaver is the specialization allowed to stay.

 

By the way it not being able to apply the "canon" consequences is the reason they took blood magic out, then there's another thing about reaver. Reaver also has consequences, mentioned in-game by the codex unlike blood magic's supposed ones. So where's our consequences for using reaver? Why is my character special and not going insane or getting murderous? Because they're the main character? Doesn't that excuse work just as well for blood magic spec?

 

Once again people, it's a retcon. The truth is they just didn't know how to get around nobody reacting to your blood magic, it has nothing to do with no being able to give you the "canon" side effects of it being "evil".

 

Lots of air quotes in this post...

[Tremere]

Blood magic not available to the player anymore. 

I would like this, if for no other reason than to stop people debating how evil it is. As if a Spirit Healer, Templar, Priest or Alchemist couldn't be evil.

[The Elder King]

Cameron talked about consequences in general, not necessarily the fact that the user gets corrupted. 'Consequences' could easily means the consequences of being a BM in an Andrastian society or as the leader of the Inquisition. Which the Reaver is unknown to have since the spec is largely unknown to people. Or the fact that blood magic weakens the Veil more than normal magic.
Though I wonder if being a Templar or Reaver would have some consequences in-game (lyrium addiction and urge to kill), as the Necromancer one (which should not be much appreciated in Orlais and Ferelden). I accep the fact that BM might be more difficult to handle than those, but if specializations don't have any relevance in-game (or worse, if specs like templars and Reavers are unlocked like in DA2 while it wouldn't normally possible to do so) I'd be seriously disappointed, and don't understand why they'd taken out BM. If the specs wouldn't have any relevance or consequences in-game (and those I mentioned should have), there's no reason to remove blood magic.

[Tremere]

Cameron talked about consequences in general, not necessarily the fact that the user gets corrupted. 'Consequences' could easily means the consequences of being a BM in an Andrastian society or as the leader of the Inquisition. Which the Reaver is unknown to have since the spec is largely unknown to people. Or the fact that blood magic weakens the Veil more than normal magic.
Though I wonder if being a Templar or Reaver would have some consequences in-game (lyrium addiction and urge to kill), as the Necromancer one (which should not be much appreciated in Orlais and Ferelden). I accep the fact that BM might be more difficult to handle than those, but if specializations don't have any relevance in-game (or worse, if specs like templars and Reavers are unlocked like in DA2 while it wouldn't normally possible to do so) I'd be seriously disappointed, and don't understand why they'd taken out BM. If the specs wouldn't have any relevance or consequences in-game (and those I mentioned should have), there's no reason to remove blood magic.

My hope is that it's for the sake of the story. Evil should be recognized as a product of the person and their actions, not what they know or the means they use to carry out their deeds.

[wcholcombe]

 
The nasty consequences Cameron talked about, I guess, are attracting demons more easily, weakening the Veil more and corrupting the user.
I don't know if you have problems with those, but it's something that WoT introduced (and if I recall the first/second were already stated somewhere in the past).   I think that those 'whispering' aren't the same for every mages. While all are subjected to them, the majority doesn't likely suffer every time/night, and not with the same force. Fenyerel in DA2 suffered a lot from it (he was a Dreamer though), and there was a codex of a female child that suffered so much from it that she requested to be tranquilized.

I took the consequences as also eventually getting to the point where the tempatation for more power becomes so great that you begin using your friends and comrades as blood magic batteries. Its corruptive.

 

 

Sure, being an alcoholic is only bad from a moral perspective, IF that is included in your moral compass. 

 

 

I fail to see the problem. Power and the ability to do whatever you want is something to strive for. 

Yeah....because kidney disease, physical abuse, and early death are only morally wrong......

 

Again, it isn't really morals that are the problem. It is the cumulative consequences of using blood magic. They can't implement a way in game to make the player start killing his own party members to use their blood for more power.  That is what Gaider has said in the past.  That blood magic eventually corrupts you to where there is no line you won't cross to get more power.  However, in gameplay people head canon their characters as "My character only drains power from his enemies or my character only uses his own blood to power his spells.  At some point you start sacrificing 1000 elven slaves to power your spells and their is no way they have come up with to show that kind of corruption from blood magic use. 

[wcholcombe]

Once again people, it's a retcon. The truth is they just didn't know how to get around nobody reacting to your blood magic, it has nothing to do with no being able to give you the "canon" side effects of it being "evil".

 

Lots of air quotes in this post...

Really....its not that hard to have your companions confront you about your decisions, or have Wynne or Morrigan refuse to become a blood mage, or just have NPCS refuse to associate with you or go screaming away in terror yelling "Malificarum" at the top of their lungs.

 

Since 2007 the devs have talked about using blood magic had negative consequences. Not that it was necessarily evil, but that there were negative results from its use.

[KainD]

Yeah....because kidney disease, physical abuse, and early death are only morally wrong......

 

Again, it isn't really morals that are the problem. It is the cumulative consequences of using blood magic. They can't implement a way in game to make the player start killing his own party members to use their blood for more power.  That is what Gaider has said in the past.  That blood magic eventually corrupts you to where there is no line you won't cross to get more power.  However, in gameplay people head canon their characters as "My character only drains power from his enemies or my character only uses his own blood to power his spells.  At some point you start sacrificing 1000 elven slaves to power your spells and their is no way they have come up with to show that kind of corruption from blood magic use. 

 

Yes. 

 

I use my enemies blood for my spells, not my allies, that's silly, why would I do that? I don't see any problem with striving for more power and crossing lines, that's not corruption that's an individual choice. Sacrificing people to cast spells only makes sense during peaceful time when you are not fighting for research and such, and those better be worthless people that are not suited for better uses. Otherwise there is no real reason to use blood magic once you have established your dominance. 

[KainD]

Really....its not that hard to have your companions confront you about your decisions, or have Wynne or Morrigan refuse to become a blood mage, or just have NPCS refuse to associate with you or go screaming away in terror yelling "Malificarum" at the top of their lungs.

 

I welcome that. It would help me distinguish who my real friends are. 

[wcholcombe]

Yes. 

 

I use my enemies blood for my spells, not my allies, that's silly, why would I do that? I don't see any problem with striving for more power and crossing lines, that's not corruption that's an individual choice. Sacrificing people to cast spells only makes sense during peaceful time when you are not fighting for research and such, and those better be worthless people that are not suited for better uses. Otherwise there is no real reason to use blood magic once you have established your dominance. 

Gaider or Laidlaw flat out stated at one point that eventually a blood mage stops caring who they use for their power-Friend, foe, or stranger down the street.  Addiction to power is a moral thing, it is a corruptive nature of the magic.

[wcholcombe]

I welcome that. It would help me distinguish who my real friends are. 

My point was it would be quite easy for them to implement that in the game.  Obviously they are not removing blood magic because of something as simple as NPC and party interactions.

 

You could run off the majority of your companions one way or another in DAO, and they have stated that your party members won't quite be the social puppets they were in DA2. So it stands to reason that if they are taking out blood magic it isn't because of an issue as trivial as pc interactions.

[KainD]

Gaider or Laidlaw flat out stated at one point that eventually a blood mage stops caring who they use for their power-Friend, foe, or stranger down the street.  Addiction to power is a moral thing, it is a corruptive nature of the magic.

 

That defies logic. Power in and of itself is pointless. People want power to get something they want. If you want wealth and luxury you use power for that. If you want freedom you use your power to be free, if you care about friendship and love then you use your power to protect and elevate your friends and loved ones. It all depends on the person and what they want. 

[KainD]

My point was it would be quite easy for them to implement that in the game.  Obviously they are not removing blood magic because of something as simple as NPC and party interactions.

 

You could run off the majority of your companions one way or another in DAO, and they have stated that your party members won't quite be the social puppets they were in DA2. So it stands to reason that if they are taking out blood magic it isn't because of an issue as trivial as pc interactions.

 

I don't see any other reasons other than the social interactions in a pre-dominate andrastian society. 

[IanPolaris]

That defies logic. Power in and of itself is pointless. People want power to get something they want. If you want wealth and luxury you use power for that. If you want freedom you use your power to be free, if you care about friendship and love then you use your power to protect and elevate your friends and loved ones. It all depends on the person and what they want. 

 

It seems to me to be yet another Bioware retcon (like Lelianna, Templar powers requiring Lyrium, ect) to change the lore to fit their argument rather than use the existing lore to tell the story they want.  That's harsh but that's how I see it.

 

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Gaider or Laidlaw flat out stated at one point that eventually a blood mage stops caring who they use for their power-Friend, foe, or stranger down the street.  Addiction to power is a moral thing, it is a corruptive nature of the magic.

 

There's nothing in the lore that even suggests that would be the case, so I find that incredibly at odds with what we actually know. I also recall Gaider saying at one point that it pertained to the user, and that while it could be corrupting, it wasn't necessarily so.

[wcholcombe]

That defies logic. Power in and of itself is pointless. People want power to get something they want. If you want wealth and luxury you use power for that. If you want freedom you use your power to be free, if you care about friendship and love then you use your power to protect and elevate your friends and loved ones. It all depends on the person and what they want. 

Defies logic or not, that is what they said.  It could potentially have something to do with the fact that BM allows you to mind control so it could affect your mental abilities for all we know. 

 

But your argument does not account at all for addiction.  Addicts can love someone and care deeply for them but still hurt or even sacrifice them when it comes to their addiction.  I grew up with a really great friend of mine who got hooked on meth at college.  He was one of the nicest do anything for a friend guys I knew, the last time I visited him in rehab he probably would have slit my throat for a fix.  Addiction is not logical. Maybe BM works that way as well. It certainly sounds like it from what has been said.

 

Sorry Kain, your arguments seem to mostly be coming from the area of you don't like the clarification of the role of blood magic in Thedas. It isn't all hunky dory just another form of magic. It has consequences, and they aren't limited to "the Andrastians won't like you".