314 réponses à ce sujet

[KainD]

Not so much retconning as trying to tie the gameplay and lore together a bit more neatly. Blood magic is a dangerous magic, and using it can have serious consequences. A flaw of the previous games was that the player character never felt those dangers, nor suffered any consequences when they chose the blood mage root, and this time around I think Bioware decided that they would either give the player a proper blood magic experience, or not give them the option at all. They chose the later, and in the context of this game in particular, I can't give them too much heat for making that decision.

 

It's one thing for your warden to use blood magic, she didn't really need to be making any friends, the ancient treaties she was carrying around did that for her. Besides she was a Grey Warden, their definition of what is "moral" has always been "whatever stops the blight". It's also not that big of a deal for Hawke to use blood magic, she was a poor apostate refuge trying to get by in a city filled to the brim with people who hated her just for existing; that she would choose any path deemed necessary to ensure the safety of the people she loved makes perfect sense. 

 

The Inquisitor as a blood mage , however, would be a very complicated issue for the developer to tackle. Unlike the Grey Warden, the Inquisitor doesn't have any political alliances up and ready to go, she'll need to be forging her own, and no one's going to meet with a woman they know practices mind control magic to sign any sort of treaty. Chances are, if they Inquisitor uses blood magic in any sort of public setting, rumors are going to spread among the magic fearing public, and getting anyone to cooperate with the Inquisition would become extremely difficult. Bioware might simply not have had the resources to take all that into account, while still making the game relatively balanced for players, so they just didn't give the player the option.

 

Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing: 

''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''

 

Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls. 

[Malsumis]

And if I want to be this bad arse necromancer

 

Weren't blood mages necromancers in previous titles? I can remember blood mages rasing the dead.

[fiveforchaos]

Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing: 

''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''

 

Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls. 

Of course Blood Magic has nasty consequences, you're literally using your own life force to power arcane forces, which, I might add, are still not completely understood. Not everyone who practices blood magic will suffer those consequences, but the risk is a very real one. There's also a little bit of a connotation issue here. Some people, both in game and out, use blood magic to refer to the process of using blood to power magic, which doesn't necessarily sound all that sinister. Other people use "blood magic" to refer to the group of spells that can only be powered by blood. This group of spells are morally grey at best, and quite possibly downright evil to some. Mind control, draining the life out of unwilling victims (including your allies), corrupting someone else's own life blood, let's just say that any spell that requires blood magic to work properly isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows. So for certain people's definition of the term, blood magic is in fact inherently evil. And no matter what, there's always going to be risks involved with the practice. 

 

Because there are multiple ways the term can be interpreted, I'm willing to give the devs the benefit of the doubt on this one, and not call retconning just yet. This is more of a "wait and see" issue for me until the game comes out .

[andy6915]

Weren't blood mages necromancers in previous titles? I can remember blood mages rasing the dead.

Yeah, and it was dumb. Spirit magic is the necromancy source, not blood magic. To quote myself in a thread where this last came up...
 

It is pretty dumb, honestly. The act of mercy quest in DA2, where you first meet Grace? When the undead get raised, EVERYONE was calling it a sign of blood magic and acted like it was in fact a blood magic spell... But it's not, animate dead in a spirit-school spell and is a circle sanctioned spell and is in no way a forbidden school or spell to do. Granted there's no way a mage could raise that NUMBER of corpses to fight without blood magic enhancing their abilities to affect more corpses at once then you should be able to, but the spell itself isn't at all related to blood magic. That quest bugged me for this reason.

And then someone argued me...
 

He didn't use blood magic to raise the dead, he used it to augment how many dead were summoned. If I cast tons of spells with blood magic turned on, more then I should be able to with just my mana, does that mean tempest or crushing prison is a blood magic spell? Does raise dead suddenly become blood magic just because I use blood magic to summon way more then I should be able to with just my mana? No, to both questions. The idiot Alain clearly wasn't a very learned mage if he thought the actual dead raising was anything but a spirit spell (of course mage Hawke and Anders acting like it was blood magic is the really stupid part, they're well trained mages and should know better unlike Alain).

 

Now are you going to argue me about the canon when it's a fact that I am right?

 

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Animate_Dead

 

"Animate Dead is a mage spell from the Spirit tree in Dragon Age: Origins."

So yeah, necromancy is indeed spirit based and not linked to blood magic. Them being linked in that quest in DA2 was a badly written plot hole.

[thats1evildude]

The distinction here is scale. In DAO, a Mage could animate a single corpse. Decimus and Quentin raised a small army of corpses with blood magic.

[katerinafm]

Last time they talked about it they said that it won't be a simple specilization anymore than you can just pick whenever you want. If the player chooses blood magic, they want it to have an impact more and it will probably be done through the story (making companion reactions likely). I don't know if that has changed since then, but I doubt they would remove it entirely from the game for the player.

[Palidane]

Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing: 

''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''

 

Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls. 

So you're saying you know the intent of the developers better than the developers themselves?

 

I mean come on, blood magic is "evil power". That's the entire purpose of it's existence; to be a constant temptation to mages who need some extra power, fast. This is a kind of magic based around using blood as a power source, and it becomes more powerful with violence and hate and murder. Oh, and it makes you into even more of a demon magnet than a normal mage, which is really saying something.

 

Come to think of it, has blood magic ever accomplished anything positive, ever? I think Malcolm might have bound Corypheus with it, but that's the only thing that comes to mind at the moment...

[Fredward]

The impression I got was that creating suitable reactions to being a blood mage was too much work so they scrapped it and made the somewhat more palatable rose-by-an-other-name Mortalitasi class.

 

Also didn't they say that there would be only one specialization class for everyone? Not that I'm complaining mind you.

[Vicious]

It was implemented right all along. The only thing that was missing was just a few more bigots like Wynne that would come in conflict with the pc, that's it. 

 

 Maybe you wanted it that way, (actually using the word 'bigots' you obviously do)but it was never what they intended.

 

They want to trash blood magic because you could be a 'good' blood mage with no consequences in DA2. While at least DA:O made you take an evil choice, you could be an otherwise pretty awesome guy. And in replays you didn't have to worry about that either.

 

It was supposed to be powerful, with major consequences. The games never presented any to the PC it just changed your playstyle. So again, for sake of story cohesiveness, they may well trash it.

 

We'll see.

[In Exile]

They want to trash blood magic because you could be a 'good' blood mage with no consequences in DA2. While at least DA:O made you take an evil choice, you could be an otherwise pretty awesome guy. And in replays you didn't have to worry about that either.

 

We'll see.

That's not true. You got the BM specialization in DA:O either by actually dealing with the demon or telling you'd curb stomp it into oblivion if it didn't leave and give you blood magic. Your evil move, I suppose, is not murdering the demon outright. 

[Maria Caliban]

I don't disagree with your previous post about not liking the "tis evil" explanation, what I loved the most about being a blood mage was the whole walking a dangerous path but still being able to control yourself, it's disappointing that won't be an option again.

The reason you were walking a dangerous path was because it was evil.

It's the same problem they had with the lyrium being addictive and mages having to live with the constant fear of becoming an abomination - the PC never experienced these things so the players decided the issues weren't that bad. Setting elements that are supposed to be dark and troubling become players shrugging their shoulders and deciding the NPCs are just overreacting or crazy.

[Fredward]

The reason you were walking a dangerous path was because it was evil.

It's the same problem they had with the lyrium being addictive and mages having to live with the constant fear of becoming an abomination - the PC never experienced these things so the players decided the issues weren't that bad. Setting elements that are supposed to be dark and troubling become players shrugging their shoulders and deciding the NPCs are just overreacting or crazy.

 

But it wasn't evil. Not inherently, it was just really easy to become evil because blood magic becomes more powerful the more of a dick you are. I was totally cool with thinking my PCs just had freakish amounts of willpower.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It was implemented right all along. The only thing that was missing was just a few more bigots like Wynne that would come in conflict with the pc, that's it. 

 

Like them bigots who won't leave poor Jospeh Kony alone. Why can't people stop judging folks on their actions? It's Ig'nant.
 

Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing:
''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''
 
Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls.

 

According to the lore published in the world of thedas, blood magic corrupts the user over time and alters their minds to be more amoral. I would consider that an "evil power" considering it almost comes across as being a form of semi-sentient magic, with a will similar to a bacterial infection, grow and consume at an increasing rate. Not to mention that outside of tearing apart the veil to summon uncontrollable denizens of that realm to our world, and being one of the few magics that can turn one into an abomination directly, I say the signs all point to "THIS POWER IS EVIL! YOU ARE USING AN EVIL POWER TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOALS! PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR SUBJECTIVE DOMINATED MENTALITY AND REALIZE THAT!"

[Uccio]

Blood magic not available to the player anymore.

Says who?

[thats1evildude]

Says who?

 

Says Cameron Lee. Check the first page.

[ManOfSteel]

Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing: 

''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''

 

Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls. 

Thinking you know the developers' intent better than the developers themselves. Always amusing to see. 

 

The Blood Mage specialisation is no more. Best move on.

[Uccio]

Says Cameron Lee. Check the first page.

Aalrighty then, one more reason not to buy the game at start. Maybe from the sale bin. I knew Bio wanted to make the pc a chantry puppet and we should just accept that. Thedas is a strange world indeed when it has moral code included in the laws of physics (jensaarai bronitarian post couple of posts earlier).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Aalrighty then, one more reason not to buy the game at start. Maybe from the sale bin. I knew Bio wanted to make the pc a chantry puppet and we should just accept that. Thedas is a strange world indeed when it moral code included its laws of physics (jensaarai bronitarian post above).

 

lol, with so many people saying how they won't buy the game because bioware didn't do enough for one social cause or another, it makes me wonder how many people are actually playing dragon age for the story, setting, and game?

[BobZilla84]

I am a little dissapointed that Blood Mage has been removed as a Spec I understand the new Health System is the most likely culprit and its also why Spirit Healer was Scrapped as a Spec as well imo.

 

I honestly am not excited to play as a Mage but maybe when we get a look at the actual Skill Trees maybe I will change my mind but until then Champion & Assassin Inquisitors for me it is.   

[Thomas Andresen]

We know next to nothing as to the availability of blood magic to the player character. The only thing we do know is it won't be as a specialization. That part of the interview seems to ooze of "we're still working on it" and it seemed to me that Lee was simplifying the lore a bit. Not to say I think he was wrong, exactly.

[thats1evildude]

Aalrighty then, one more reason not to buy the game at start. Maybe from the sale bin. I knew Bio wanted to make the pc a chantry puppet and we should just accept that. Thedas is a strange world indeed when it has moral code included in the laws of physics (jensaarai bronitarian post couple of posts earlier).

 

Set aside your Chantry hate for a moment and accept that letting the player practice blood magic was extremely problematic from both a gameplay and story perspective.

 

1) Allowing the PC to use blood magic created a discrepancy with the setting's established lore. If you have a party member who aligned with the Chantry or at least holds a belief in the Maker, they should at least be hesitant about working with you. Ditto for the qunari and the Dalish. They might even be obligated to kill you. And yet, in both DAO and DA2, nobody really cared about the PC using blood magic, because the devs are hesitant about forcing any drastic repurcussions like that on the player.

 

In Inquisition, the main character is supposed to be building a major organization with the intent of saving the whole world. Who the hell is going to put a maleficar in charge of that?

 

2) Learning blood magic should be dangerous, or at the very least difficult. Presuming you don't have access to a teacher, the only way to learn blood magic is through contact with a demon, which is how it was handled in DAO. But that also led to a lot of people basically cheating to get the specialization, just as they did with the reaver specialization. And it certainly wasn't dangerous in either game.

3) It's difficult to model what a blood mage can actually do within the setting. According to lore, blood mages can view the dreams of others and tear open the Veil. A blood mage PC in DAO or DA2 can't do any of that, mostly because it would be totally game-breaking. And it goes further than that: if we're allowing mage PCs to use blood magic, then why don't we also allow them to tow around several slaves and slit their throats whenever the PC needs a power boost?

 

With all that in mind, I think they did the right thing denying access to the blood mage specialization to the player. There will no doubt be opportunities to employ blood magic in the story proper, as it's ideal for ethical quandaries.

[Uccio]

lol, with so many people saying how they won't buy the game because bioware didn't do enough for one social cause or another, it makes me wonder how many people are actually playing dragon age for the story, setting, and game?

I like consistency. Origins introduces a world where you have a imperium which lasted millenias, was built by blood magic and built marvelous things bringing civilazation to barbarians. Ruled by magisters who used constantly blood magic. Then Bio tries to backpedal by saying that every blood mage is actually batshit grazy and/or possessed by demons in order to influence players. That just doesn't fly with Tevinter. Batshit grazy possessed blood mages do not build imperiums to last.

[Allan Schumacher]

Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing: 

''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''

 

Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls. 

Just curious, do you validate this perspective based on the fact that you used blood magic in DAO and DA2 without consequence?

[n7stormrunner]

Aalrighty then, one more reason not to buy the game at start. Maybe from the sale bin. I knew Bio wanted to make the pc a chantry puppet and we should just accept that. Thedas is a strange world indeed when it has moral code included in the laws of physics (jensaarai bronitarian post couple of posts earlier).

 

 

note to self.. not using blood magic makes mages chanty puppets... actual supporting chanty now optional.

[thats1evildude]

I like consistency. Origins introduces a world where you have a imperium which lasted millenias, was built by blood magic and built marvelous things bringing civilazation to barbarians. Ruled by magisters who used constantly blood magic. Then Bio tries to backpedal by saying that every blood mage is actually batshit grazy and/or possessed by demons in order to influence players. That just doesn't fly with Tevinter. Batshit grazy possessed blood mages do not build imperiums to last.

 

It didn't last, though. And technically, the Imperium only ruled Thedas for a few centuries, not "millenia."