314 réponses à ce sujet

[metalfenix]

Reavers aren't the same as blood mages, just as spirit warriors aren't the same as arcane warriors or templars. There are matters of scale as to what a reaver can do compared to what a blood mage can do, and gameplay wise they use different mechanics, with you getting stronger the weaker you health gets as a reaver, and you taking large chunks of your own and your parties health to cast magic.

 

Beyond that, was the way to convey what it is to use blood magic to the player in a way that actually worked, which I think was a bigger drive here. Players just didn't get what ti meant to be a blood mage, and rather then that happen, again, they decided to remove the problem of playes using their own characters as proof against the lore to present it in a more accurate manner in game, assuming that is the plan.

 

But as reaver some skills actually drain constantly your own health (Aura of pain for example) , it's even worse than blood magic mechanics.

[Mockingword]

I have to say, if blood magic was previously supposed to read as "inherently evil", I did not get that at all.

 

I thought the writers tried to leave most moral issues ambiguous, so that people could make up their own minds.

[Treacherous J Slither]

In DAO the blood magic specialization was poorly implemented IMO.

 

There was no spellpower augmentation ability, you can only puppet master a single enemy, and you can only drain health from your allies.

 

That last one is the real doozy. It doesn't make any sense. The player should be able to blood drain anyone on the field they choose. Enemies included.

 

In DA2 a local area of effect blood drain ability was given to the player. Great. Blood Sacrifice however still remained as an attack on a friend only. Stupid. A blood mage surrounded by enemies should have a source of power and vitality as numerous as his opponents.

 

I understand that if properly implemented blood magic would become even more attractive and the devs want it to be viewed in a negative light. That's the problem right there. It isn't evil. How can it be? It has no will of it's own.

 

I remember reading a book in which enemy spellcasters were using "evil magic" according to the good guys. They cast spells that turned peoples bones to powder and boiled the blood etc etc. Horrible spells but evil? I don't think so. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

There's a lot in dragon age meant to be ambiguous, there's no doubt about that. But if the devs feel blood magic ain't one kf them and a lot of fans think it is one of them, it gives some justification to their decision not to have blood magic as a specialization in the traditional sense. It is hinted though the lore that blood magic might have a sway over its caster, and subsequently the player, in a way that has not gotten through to folks.

It is possible we will see the chance to become a blood mage in the game, with the consequences and implementation a lot different then what we had before.

[Ianamus]

I think that there's is a lot more narrative consistency this way. Before, practicing blood magic had no real consequences, and it's only real defining characteristic was that it was powerful and could do things other schools of magic could not. Not only did this make it confusing when people started yelling about blood magic though it was the worst thing ever, because it was practically the same as any other form of magic but just used health instead of mana, but being so powerful it made all the other schools of magic seem worthless in comparison. 

 

I like this new approach because it actually makes it clear why people view blood magic so negatively. It's not just casting spells from health or occasionally mind controlling people, it has negative side effects and consequences that make the Chantry and Marethari's extreme opposition to it far more believable. It also gives us the opportunity to finally explore other schools of magic in more depth, without blood magic always doing everything better with no consequences.

[Cainhurst Crow]

But as reaver some skills actually drain constantly your own health (Aura of pain for example) , it's even worse than blood magic mechanics.

You say thst like you have proof aura of pain will come back in DAI. and more to the point, what about the other point I made about devs wanting to accurately show what blood magic is like?

[Bad King]

The impression that I had in the previous games was that blood magic tended to be corrupting and dangerous (it thinned the veil more than other magics making it easier for demons to slip through) but could still be used to achieve noble goals (e.g Avernus sealing the demons within Warden's Keep or Jowan using it to save Connor in the fade). Shame it has been removed: I always enjoyed roleplaying a dark blood mage.

[kheldorin]

I've always got the impression from playing both games that the more someone uses blood magic, the more they allow themselves to be susceptible to the seven sins. It's not as obviously evil as a demon taking over but in certain cases it's worse because of it's insidious nature. You don't know whether someone is the way he is because of blood magic or that's how he is naturally. It's like a negative feedback loop. If Merill hadn't used blood magic, would she have been as stubborn and proud as she was? Would Tevinter be a much better society if their mages are not influenced by blood magic? 

 

From a gameplay perspective, it's hard to enforce that to the player without restricting his choices. How do you make the player become more lazy, more envious, more prone to rage?

 

So it makes sense to remove blood magic as a playable specialization because of that. It has nothing to do with the mechanics of drawing blood, draining health or resurrecting the dead.

[Aremce]

What I got from the game is that blood magic is not "evil", since it's not a living thing with its own mind, but just very dangerous both for those who use it and those around them.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to be afraid of it, imo. You are not stupid or ignorant for fearing it, especially if you're not strong enough to defend yourself against it - in fact it's a smart thing to be cautious. A blood mage may have the skills and mental strength to use it merely as a weapon, or they may not. They may be in full control and aware of what they are doing, or they may be or get influenced by demons (who are known to be able to manipulate thoughts and emotions without the mage really noticing). You cannot know as an outsider.

 

It's hard to portray the whole dilemma with the PC as a blood mage, since we as the player are in full control over them and since there has to be balancing ... and since a lot of companions would probably have a big problem with it. I can understand why the devs would want to avoid that.

[andy6915]

Speaking of blood magic being weaker for your character, blood magic is supposed to be insanely powerful. For example it apparently makes the mage extremely resistent to damage and gives them a Wolverine healing factor that lets them literally regrow lost limbs or reattach limbs and survive stabs with no serious injury (remember Merrill getting stabbed in her final companion quest if you fall for the trick, all she has a minor injury from what should have left her dying in a pool of blood). Experienced blood mages can survive way more than they should be able to, this is why most blood mages take such a beating in gameplay too. Oh, and it lets you do stuff like this-

 

 

 

 

That's far stronger than anything we could do with blood magic.

[Uccio]

Jowan is not a good mage. He's an epic-level idiot. His reason for learning BM is that he's jealous of the Warden. He stumbles from stupid plot to stupid plot, outright lies and betrays his friend and his lover, agrees to poison Arl Eamon because Teyrn Loghain asked nicely... 

He's the worst possible example you can use. If he was within 50 feet of a demon that thing would be ridding his meatsuit like nobody's business. 

 

Being a idiot does not make you evil. In Jowains defence I can say that atleast he had a good heart which he demonstrated in the end. 

[Uccio]

The imperium still worships andraste, even if they think shes a mage. They still have templars, which will have less authority in the greater society, still hold authority of the circles. They can still tranquil mages. They can still respond to mage related crimes and put those criminals to the sword. And they still possess the right of annulment. These are all things the black chantry allows them to do, the same chanty which also still acknowledges blood magic as being dangerous and not something worth admiring or praising.

 

Others have told you why jowan isn't an example of a good mage, being that he was willing to take up work as an assassin and has shown multiple times to be highly deceptive and manipulative.

 

What's cuter though is your assumption that I somehow care about the chantry or what it thinks, like some evangelist. You should really get over yourself and your presumptions of others. I looked at all the facts concerning blood magic once in order to argue for its implementation as a class and against having unnecessary stat penalties added onto it. I've done my homework on the subject, and you are simply incorrect in your assumption. You cite companions, who suffer from plot armor of the same sort that keeps most of them from contracting the blight, even when covered in darkspawn blood, as evidence. Meanwhile you advise others to discard canon additions to the lore that have been publicly accepted as fact because they contradict with your own viewpoint.

 

Given all of this, I can say, at least with some confidence, that you wish far too hard to play as a blood mage, and have far too much hate of a fictional religious organization.
 

 

Magisters in Imperium uses the chantry as a cover to rule as they used to. Templars nor the chantry have no real power there since all the control is in the hands of the mages. 

 

Like I said, being stupid is not the same as being evil. Jowain was just stupid, he did have good intentions as shown in the end though.

 

You are cute when you think that I took you for a evangelist. I just threw that comment to balance the issue, to show that the gameworld is not tilted towards anything specific morality. Overall shade of gray covers all. My complain about evilfication of blood magic later just for the sake of making something too evil for the player to use is blatant railroading. In Origin codex there is nothing that hints blood magic being fueled by simple suffering, for example. Dews can come out and declare anything canon but it does not remove the fact that in this case the intent is obvious.

 

Feel free to think what you wish of me Dr feel, but that is just you assumption. My point still stands. 

 

[KainD]

Of course Blood Magic has nasty consequences, you're literally using your own life force to power arcane forces, which, I might add, are still not completely understood. Not everyone who practices blood magic will suffer those consequences, but the risk is a very real one. 

 

First, you can use the life force of others. Second, what's the consequence? 

[KainD]

So you're saying you know the intent of the developers better than the developers themselves?

 

Devs intent doesn't always match with what they actually do. They did a very bad job with their intent this time, and now they retcon. 

[KainD]

Just curious, do you validate this perspective based on the fact that you used blood magic in DAO and DA2 without consequence?

 

No, based on the lore of blood magic. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Jowan is not a good mage. He's an epic-level idiot. His reason for learning BM is that he's jealous of the Warden. He stumbles from stupid plot to stupid plot, outright lies and betrays his friend and his lover, agrees to poison Arl Eamon because Teyrn Loghain asked nicely... 

He's the worst possible example you can use. If he was within 50 feet of a demon that thing would be ridding his meatsuit like nobody's business. 

 

Jowan isn't very smart but he knew enough to keep the fact that he was a blood mage to himself seeing as how he lived in a place where such a thing is punishable by death. Can't blame him for that. I wouldn't tell anybody either. What I don't understand is why there isn't an option to run off with Jowan. You finally have a chance at freedom but instead you would rather stay and leave yourself at the mercy of your Templar jailors after crapping all over their laws? Wtf?!

 

I also can't blame him for trusting the famous Fereldan freedom fighter hero Loghain and agreeing to work for him. Jowan had no reason to not believe his lies. Your average Fereldan would have fell for it too. What I don't understand about this story is how Connor got possessed in the first place because if mage children can become meatsocks, why doesn't the Circle put them through the Harrowing? Why wait until they're adults? If they've survived that long then maybe there's no need to do it at all.

 

I don't know how long Jowan was at the Circle but it must have been a good while. Not sure how old he is but he's been walking the Fade every night for at least 18 years and hasn't gotten possessed. Maybe he's not as weak willed as people think. If the demons don't notice him because he's a weak mage then why put him through the Harrowing at all? Weak mages should get a pass. If they might notice him now that he's gained some strength from blood magic then every second counts and action should be taken immediately to negate the threat. Yet he's been dabbling in the oh so terrible forbidden magics for a few days at the very least and all they're doing is watching him just like they watch everyone else. How does anyone know that he's highly susceptible to possession anyway? Is there a spell or a test for that? If someone is found to be an inevitable Emily Rose then why not take care of the problem immediately? Why wait and put everyone at risk?

[KainD]

Using blood magic should've been more dangerous. F.e. a 50% chance of becoming an abomination when using blood magic in combat 

 

*facepalm*

[Mockingword]

You know, just because the player can't use blood magic doesn't meant it's unavailable completely.  It might be the personal specialisation of a party member.

[KainD]

You know, just because the player can't use blood magic doesn't meant it's unavailable completely.  It might be the personal specialisation of a party member.

 

Just less flavor and roleplay. 

[Mockingword]

Just less flavor and roleplay. 

Well, I mostly meant that as a response to people who were going "SEE? IT'S TOTALLY EVIL AND THAT'S WHY THEY TOOK IT AWAY"

 

But just because they don't think it's reasonable for the Inquisitor to have it doesn't mean they think it's unreasonable for someone else. Even if they've decided that blood magic is "totally evil", they've given us the option to ally with sociopathic jerks before.

[KainD]

I mean I agree that blood magic is ''evil'' from a traditional morals point of view, it needs to damage living beings to function, but that doesn't mean that it has any negative consequences for the user, there are none universally. 

[whogotsalami]

I've always presumed that the "Necromancy" specialization was connected to the Entropy School of magic. Never associated it with Blood Magic.

[BobZilla84]

I wont argue the morality of Blood Magic but I have had a change of heart regarding playing a mage I am wanting to play a Necromancer and reanimate the fallen and have them attack my fool enimies ha ha.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I think that there's is a lot more narrative consistency this way. Before, practicing blood magic had no real consequences, and it's only real defining characteristic was that it was powerful and could do things other schools of magic could not. Not only did this make it confusing when people started yelling about blood magic though it was the worst thing ever, because it was practically the same as any other form of magic but just used health instead of mana, but being so powerful it made all the other schools of magic seem worthless in comparison. 

 

I like this new approach because it actually makes it clear why people view blood magic so negatively. It's not just casting spells from health or occasionally mind controlling people, it has negative side effects and consequences that make the Chantry and Marethari's extreme opposition to it far more believable. It also gives us the opportunity to finally explore other schools of magic in more depth, without blood magic always doing everything better with no consequences.

 

There are still no consequences to blood magic use. Aside from people being scared to death of it and it being illegal.

 

Blood magic IS better than mana fueled magic. A blood mage can do everything a mana mage can do and more. A blood mage can switch between the two fuel systems at will.

 

Blood magic is not the dark side of the Force. There are no inherently corrupting properties or negative side effects. Practicioners may become corrupted from having so much power over their environment however. They may start to believe that they are above the law and above morality. They may feel as though they could simply do as they wish and no one could stop them. This is the kind of corruption that all human beings are susceptible to. It has nothing to do with blood magic whatsoever. In real life there are many examples. Politicians, cops, soldiers, the wealthy, huge corporations, husbands over their wives, parents over their children, wardens over their prisoners etc.

 

I've read and reread the blood magic entry of World Of Thedas and it doesn't dispute anything that i've posted.

[KainD]

Agree except: 

 

Blood magic IS better than mana fueled magic. A blood mage can do everything a mana mage can do and more. A blood mage can switch between the two fuel systems at will.

 

It's not better, it's the same, just a different source. The more power the better of course, but magic is all the same.