Dealing with demons is risky because they're good at trickery and manipulation. Playing on your pride, desires, anger etc. Best to stay away. Unless your a mage beset by enemies and on the verge of death. Might as well rip open the Veil and take them with you!
And that exact attitude is the reason why Templars and the whole circle system exist.
Your point is sound, the devs point however isn't. This is retconing:
''Pure blood magic in the lore of the game is really supposed to be a very evil power. In previous games it wasn't really perceived to be that way. We talked about it being that way in the lore, we'd talk about crazy mages who went down the blood magic route and how that would have nasty consequences.''
Just no. It's not ''evil power'', it's not supposed to be perceived that way, it's no supposed to have any nasty consequences other than conflicts with people that don't like blood magic. Inquisitor can't face those consequences? Fair enough, just no other bs pls.
Well it's "an evil power" if the lore says it is. I mean, in Thedas people, especially Templars, find blood magic dangerous as it generally comes at the expense of making a deal with a demon and leaves the user more open to possession. But since the PC is kind of above general possession, it makes it harder for the blood magic spec to fit in with lore.
Just because you don't view it as evil, doesn't mean that it's not supposed to be viewed as such. You know? That'd be like saying "Well demons aren't really evil. That's just bs." despite the fact that lore says that demons are bad.
BS. It has been said in the lore numerous times that blood magic weakens the Veil much faster than normal magic.
It's related to the scale of the spell. More powerful spells weaken the veil more, blood magic is usually more powerful.
That'd be like saying "Well demons aren't really evil. That's just bs." despite the fact that lore says that demons are bad.
Demons are not evil.
Well it's "an evil power" if the lore says it is. I mean, in Thedas people, especially Templars, find blood magic dangerous as it generally comes at the expense of making a deal with a demon and leaves the user more open to possession. But since the PC is kind of above general possession, it makes it harder for the blood magic spec to fit in with lore.
Just because you don't view it as evil, doesn't mean that it's not supposed to be viewed as such. You know? That'd be like saying "Well demons aren't really evil. That's just bs." despite the fact that lore says that demons are bad.
Regardless, I don't find it to be evil, in and of itself. It's just another tool. However, it tends to be that the most evil/dangerous of mages tend to use blood magic, giving the practice a very negative connotation.
Spirits are drawn to intense emotion, pain and suffering. That is why the veil is usually weak at sites of great battles and disastrous events.
Therefore it makes sense that blood magic, which is powered by pain and suffering and could be seen as a concentrated form of it, would be far more likely to attract demons and weaken the veil than regular lyrium-fueled magic.
Blood/life force powers blood magic. The more blood/life force used, the stronger the spell.
You can slit a throat or break a collarbone. One injury is life threatening and the other is merely very painful. Which would yield the more powerful spell?
The Veil is torn by mages who intentionally do so. Like Avernus.
Magisters in Imperium uses the chantry as a cover to rule as they used to. Templars nor the chantry have no real power there since all the control is in the hands of the mages.
Like I said, being stupid is not the same as being evil. Jowain was just stupid, he did have good intentions as shown in the end though.
You are cute when you think that I took you for a evangelist. I just threw that comment to balance the issue, to show that the gameworld is not tilted towards anything specific morality. Overall shade of gray covers all. My complain about evilfication of blood magic later just for the sake of making something too evil for the player to use is blatant railroading. In Origin codex there is nothing that hints blood magic being fueled by simple suffering, for example. Dews can come out and declare anything canon but it does not remove the fact that in this case the intent is obvious.
Feel free to think what you wish of me Dr feel, but that is just you assumption. My point still stands.
Blood Magic, as the forbidden school, has very little written/oral information on how to go about it. Most Blood Mages we've seen learned Blood Magic from a demon, beginning a slippery slope. If the only access to more knowledge a mage has is from demons, they are going to keep making deals with demons. Add to that that demons have a history of playing with the minds of mortals, and you get megalomaniac mages. If a mage simply uses blood, with out going to a demon or seeking to control demons, it seems to just be an exaggerated form of magic that grows with pain/malice and thins the veil doubly more than normal magic, increased exponentially if lives are sacrificed. Then demons get involved again so, you get bad things here as well if your not careful. Basically, I think Blood Magic with out demons is theoretically possible, but highly unlikely and besides the PCs (except the Warden who learns it from a demon) I don't think any Blood Mage has ever been completely demon/corruption free.
A deal with demons is only necessary if you can't obtain the needed instructions on your own from a book like Jowan did or from a teacher like Grace.
Blood magic is free of the Fade. No need for spirits. You can summon them though. The spirit school of magic is tied far closer to the Fade than blood magic is hence the name.
Dealing with demons is risky because they're good at trickery and manipulation. Playing on your pride, desires, anger etc. Best to stay away. Unless your a mage beset by enemies and on the verge of death. Might as well rip open the Veil and take them with you!
Ok, so blood magic is theoretically truly working through blood alone, it's not essentially the demon equivalent to the magic spirit healers use ... thank you two, I seem to have missed the exact explanation!
I still think it's a dangerous way of using magic, though - because truth is, almost all blood mages we met in game used or tried to use demons, which are highly dangerous and manipulative beings as we can agree on. There seems to be almost no way around it, to resist temptation and not go mad for power. Maybe Jowan is an example of one blood mage who could avoid it, however ...
(Grace, not so much. She actually ended up as a pride abomination, after all. If I remember it right.)
A deal with demons is only necessary if you can't obtain the needed instructions on your own from a book like Jowan did or from a teacher like Grace.
Blood magic is free of the Fade. No need for spirits. You can summon them though. The spirit school of magic is tied far closer to the Fade than blood magic is hence the name.
Dealing with demons is risky because they're good at trickery and manipulation. Playing on your pride, desires, anger etc. Best to stay away. Unless your a mage beset by enemies and on the verge of death. Might as well rip open the Veil and take them with you!
It's pretty disappointing that templars are going to be a spec but blood mage isn't. The two are foils to one another but I guess they story calls for the inquisitor to be aligned with the Chantry/Circle, so no "evil" specs. Even though I stopped the Blight with blood magic and I resolved the Kirkwall conflict with blood magic. Oh well 
It's pretty disappointing that templars are going to be a spec but blood mage isn't. The two are foils to one another but I guess they story calls for the inquisitor to be aligned with the Chantry/Circle, so no "evil" specs. Even though I stopped the Blight with blood magic and I resolved the Kirkwall conflict with blood magic. Oh well
And that exact attitude is the reason why Templars and the whole circle system exist.
There's nothing wrong with having a policing force for magic related events. I'm all for it.
What i'm against is the villifying and imprisonment of mages. They need education and integration not subjugation and alienation.
Ever since Tevinter mages have been oppressed. I understand why. If they aren't held down then eventually they'll be running things and people fear that another terrible magocracy might take place. It might not but hey most people just don't want to take that chance. That's fine. Magic can be scary. Better oppress them before they oppress you right? I understand the mindset just fine. I simply disagree.
The more you talk, the more obvious it is how little research you actually bothered to do.
I´ve played the games and read all the codex. That is all I need to do to see how things are.
Sorry if this has already be mentioned in this thread, but if they wanted Blood Magic to been seen as evil then maybe they shouldn't have given it to merrill. It seemed like they gave it to her just to subvert the idea that its evil for evil people only to do evil things with.
Necromamcy sounds pretty evil according to the devs.
When have the devs ever mentioned necromancy as being evil? Heck, the only necromancy we have seen thus far was Quentin.
Well there is thst. But there's also the whole become an abomination when highly stressed or asleep thing to worry about. The whole involuntary use of magic thing like wynne lighting that girls hair on fire when she was a kid just by thinking about it. Blood magic and mind control of course. And the fsct you cant disarm mages the same way you can a rogue or a warrior by doing a simple search of their person, and can't stop them from casting magic without being a templar or tranquilizing them.There's nothing wrong with having a policing force for magic related events. I'm all for it.
What i'm against is the villifying and imprisonment of mages. They need education and integration not subjugation and alienation.
Ever since Tevinter mages have been oppressed. I understand why. If they aren't held down then eventually they'll be running things and people fear that another terrible magocracy might take place. It might not but hey most people just don't want to take that chance. That's fine. Magic can be scary. Better oppress them before they oppress you right? I understand the mindset just fine. I simply disagree.
Jowan isn't very smart but he knew enough to keep the fact that he was a blood mage to himself seeing as how he lived in a place where such a thing is punishable by death. Can't blame him for that. I wouldn't tell anybody either. What I don't understand is why there isn't an option to run off with Jowan. You finally have a chance at freedom but instead you would rather stay and leave yourself at the mercy of your Templar jailors after crapping all over their laws? Wtf?!
He's not an idiot for not actually yelling "Please kill me! I'm a blood mage!" at the Circle. He's an idiot for using blood magic in the first place because he's jealous of the Warden. Seriously, he picks the most hated school of magic - the one that's an automatic death sentence - because he's frustrated he isn't that good at magic. To quote the Avengers "Not a great plan."
As for not being able to leave with him: your phylactery was in Denerim. You even have dialogue to that effect.
I also can't blame him for trusting the famous Fereldan freedom fighter hero Loghain and agreeing to work for him. Jowan had no reason to not believe his lies. Your average Fereldan would have fell for it too. What I don't understand about this story is how Connor got possessed in the first place because if mage children can become meatsocks, why doesn't the Circle put them through the Harrowing? Why wait until they're adults? If they've survived that long then maybe there's no need to do it at all.
Loghain asked him to poison Arl Eamon. You have to be a complete moron not to see that this is 1) illegal 2) because it is murder so 3) Loghain clearly is making a power play.
As for the Harrowing, it's incredibly dangerous. Children can't even use magic properly. Putting them in front of a demon is a great way to give that demon a new meatsuit.
I don't know how long Jowan was at the Circle but it must have been a good while. Not sure how old he is but he's been walking the Fade every night for at least 18 years and hasn't gotten possessed. Maybe he's not as weak willed as people think. If the demons don't notice him because he's a weak mage then why put him through the Harrowing at all? Weak mages should get a pass. If they might notice him now that he's gained some strength from blood magic then every second counts and action should be taken immediately to negate the threat. Yet he's been dabbling in the oh so terrible forbidden magics for a few days at the very least and all they're doing is watching him just like they watch everyone else. How does anyone know that he's highly susceptible to possession anyway? Is there a spell or a test for that? If someone is found to be an inevitable Emily Rose then why not take care of the problem immediately? Why wait and put everyone at risk?
No, he's no highly susceptible because of blood magic, he's highly susceptible because he's a moron. If Loghain asking him to poison Arl Eamon looks like a great idea, and if he uses blood magic in the first place because he's jealous with absolutely no plan not to get caught... then if a demon wants he's easy picking.
Then why is it the description of blood magic describes it as using the life energy contained within blood rather then blood itself? And why csn this magic that is divorced from the fade allow you to enter the fade more freely then any other magic form? And even more so, allow you to project your mind and will through the fade to find people's dream selves within and invade it I order to control them? Why is it one of the only magic thst can be used to actively tear open the veil as we saw at wardens keep?
For a magic thst was nothing to do with the fade, a lot of its power appears to be connected directly to manipulating the veil and fade.
If I have ever said that it is blood alone that powers blood magic and not the accompanying life force and that dead blood could be used to great effect, then I was wrong. But I didn't did I? Feel free to post a quote of it if I have.
I believe that blood magic allows you to do so much because it's incredibly powerful. Maybe the raw energy of life accessed through blood is stronger than the raw energy of the Fade accessed through mana. *shrugs*
However, if I was writing this stuff, blood magic would be tied into the physical world only. Puppet mastery, telekinesis, reading and controlling minds etc. Throwing fireballs, summoning spirits, and walking dreams sounds better as mana mage stuff.
When have the devs ever mentioned necromancy as being evil? Heck, the only necromancy we have seen thus far was Quentin.
Guest_Lady Glint_*
Sure. If you say so.
Well there is thst. But there's also the whole become an abomination when highly stressed or asleep thing to worry about. The whole involuntary use of magic thing like wynne lighting that girls hair on fire when she was a kid just by thinking about it. Blood magic and mind control of course. And the fsct you cant disarm mages the same way you can a rogue or a warrior by doing a simple search of their person, and can't stop them from casting magic without being a templar or tranquilizing them.
There's a lot more reason the issue is hard to address the just blaming the chantry and dismissing the circles. Especially since the imperium still uses the circle system, and thst there's no real way to have mages integrated without giving them higher positions of power with much more ease for them to rise the ranks then normal people, just by the merit of what their powers allow them to accomplish.
I agree with everything you've just said. However, these are all concerns that have to be addressed using education and integration because no other way will work.
There's a reason mundanes can't cast blood magic.
Well actually they can, sort of, in the form of some reaver abilities. They can also cast spirit magic (which all Templar abilities are, as well as reavers again with their aura of pain, and just about all the abilities a spirit warrior has)... You know, as I wrote this post I started to realize that spirit magic seems to be the one type of magic that mundanes truly do have an affinity for. No mundanes can do stuff like shoot fire out of their hands or do entropic stuff or heal with magic, but there are a lot of examples of mundanes doing spirit magic. Even dwarves can do this stuff.
It seems spirit magic is the one form of magic sapient beings can do regardless of magical ability. What about it makes it distinct from other magic that non-mages can do it?
Well actually they can, sort of, in the form of some reaver abilities. They can also cast spirit magic (which all Templar abilities are, as well as reavers again with their aura of pain, and just about all the abilities a spirit warrior has)... You know, as I wrote this post I started to realize that spirit magic seems to be the one type of magic that mundanes truly do have an affinity for. No mundanes can do stuff like shoot fire out of their hands or do entropic stuff or heal with magic, but there are a lot of examples of mundanes doing spirit magic. Even dwarves can do this stuff.
It seems spirit magic is the one form of magic sapient beings can do regardless of magical ability. What about it makes it distinct from other magic that non-mages can do it?
Ever since Tevinter mages have been oppressed. I understand why. If they aren't held down then eventually they'll be running things and people fear that another terrible magocracy might take place. It might not but hey most people just don't want to take that chance. That's fine. Magic can be scary. Better oppress them before they oppress you right? I understand the mindset just fine. I simply disagree.
I was referring to the mindset of "We are going to lose this fight, DEMON TIME MUTHA*******!1!!". That is just stupid and evil and pathetic. Turning into an abomination when you're about to die just proves the Templars right and harms all of the other mages that aren't complete assholes.
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