314 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

Templars need to ingest lyrium to gain their anti magic abilities. Reavers need to drink dragon blood to do reaver-y stuff. Spirit warriors strike a deal with spirits to gain magical powers.

Otherwise mundanes are utterly incapable of casting magic on their own.

Yet spirit is all they can do, nothing of any other magic type except a very tiny sliver of blood magic in the form of reaver. So once again, what makes spirit special? Why doesn't the lyrium or dragon blood or spirit deals let mundanes do anything besides spirit magic? There's something unique about that magic that separates it from the rest.

[TKavatar]

Yet spirit is all they can do, nothing of any other magic type except a very tiny sliver of blood magic in the form of reaver. So once again, what makes spirit special? Why doesn't the lyrium or dragon blood or spirit deals let mundanes do anything besides spirit magic? There's something unique about that magic that separates it from the rest.

Templars drink lyrium to gain abilities, spirit warriors use spirits to gain their powers. Lyrium and spirits are all connected to the Fade. Spirit magic involves channeling the raw energies of the Fade to do stuff.

[andy6915]

I was referring to the mindset of "We are going to lose this fight, DEMON TIME MUTHA*******!1!!". That is just stupid and evil and pathetic. Turning into an abomination when you're about to die just proves the Templars right and harms all of the other mages that aren't complete assholes.

I agree for a different reason. My mage characters always have a pride in their combat ability. The way they see it, no demon is more powerful than they are. Demons are weaklings in the end. So why summon them for help when you should be able to handle it on your own? And if they can't handle it on their own, then they either need truly trusted allies and friends to back them up or they need to admit that they finally met their match and suffer the death they earned with their weakness. Only wimps rely on demons, and my mages are no wimps. Fight alongside friends or have the guts to fight your own battles without needing to pathetically run to weak little demons because you can't handle something. In the end, your abomination form is probably going to be weaker than you already are. I have no doubt my mages could easily defeat an abomination form of themselves and could do it 1 on 1.

 

It's funny. The chantry and circles teach that pride is one of the most dangerous things for a mage because it makes you weaker to demons. Yet my mages are so prideful that it's exactly why demons never even get close to possessing them. They are so prideful that they are safer from demons then mages who have no pride. A pride demon trying trying to use their pride against my mages wouldn't even work because they have too much pride to want anything a wimp like pride demons could offer. In fact, that's why demons want mages... They're weak and they know it, so they try to possess mages to try to get some of the mages strength for their own. They convince mages that they're weaker than demons and thus demons have power to offer them, but it's actually the opposite and demons are just using manipulation to let you power them up. In fact, the chantry makes it easier for demons by convincing mages that demons are all-powerful monsters who can take them over effortlessly. Mages believing that just makes it easier for demons to convince foolish mages that they'll be powered up by the demon and are more easily possessed because of it, when really they will be weaker and easier to kill as an abomination then in their true mage form.

 

The chantry would be better off teaching that demons are insignificant nothings that most mages will have no trouble completely overpowering and that demons just want you because they want your power because they have so little themselves. I can practically promise a lot more harrowings would be passed if this was what they taught.

[Hellion Rex]

I was referring to the mindset of "We are going to lose this fight, DEMON TIME MUTHA*******!1!!". That is just stupid and evil and pathetic. Turning into an abomination when you're about to die just proves the Templars right and harms all of the other mages that aren't complete assholes.

I disagree. If someone is about 10 seconds from killing you, other mages and people are probably the furthest thing from your mind. You are more likely trying to survive and avoid the blade coming for your throat.

[Vicious]

8 pages of discussion and all you fellows have done is prove why Blood magic was not working and had to go.

 

No consequences presented to the player = player thinks it's OK because their PC handled it no problem, and other blood mages are either mustache twirlingly evil or mental weaklings.

 

 

Glad it's gone.

[KainD]

8 pages of discussion and all you fellows have done is prove why Blood magic was not working and had to go.

No consequences presented to the player = player thinks it's OK because their PC handled it no problem, and other blood mages are either mustache twirlingly evil or mental weaklings.


Glad it's gone.

You haven't read the 8 pages have you? Or atleast that's what your post proves

[Ianamus]

I disagree. If someone is about 10 seconds from killing you, other mages and people are probably the furthest thing from your mind. You are more likely trying to survive and avoid the blade coming for your throat.

 

It's still selfish and stupid, though. Allowing yourself to get possessed is hardly "surviving", If anything you just die sooner. 

[Medhia_Nox]

It's only a retcon for those who didn't want it to be evil.

 

I base my determination of a thing by the manner in which is it ultimately used - and in two games I have yet to meet a blood mage that is not a self-serving, wretched (at best) individual who's too weak and craven to do anything but resort to self-mutilation.  That includes Zathrian, Jowan, Avernus, Uldred, Merrill, Quentin and Orsino.

 

So - for myself - there's no retcon in saying it was always supposed to be evil.  I think it was presented exactly how it was meant.

[Palidane]

I disagree. If someone is about 10 seconds from killing you, other mages and people are probably the furthest thing from your mind. You are more likely trying to survive and avoid the blade coming for your throat.

You're describing someone who only cares about themselves, which is pretty close to the definition of an *******. Besides, it's not like becoming an abomination will help you survive. You're still dead, you just get the satisfaction of maybe killing the Templars... as well as your allies... while validating every negative opinion people have of mages... and increasing the resolve of all surviving Templars...maybe killing a ton of innocent people if you escape...

 

I mean, really. Just suck it up and accept your death with some dignity, instead of lashing out like a four year old who doesn't want to share a toy.

[wcholcombe]

I agree for a different reason. My mage characters always have a pride in their combat ability. The way they see it, no demon is more powerful than they are. Demons are weaklings in the end. So why summon them for help when you should be able to handle it on your own? And if they can't handle it on their own, then they either need truly trusted allies and friends to back them up or they need to admit that they finally met their match and suffer the death they earned with their weakness. Only wimps rely on demons, and my mages are no wimps. Fight alongside friends or have the guts to fight your own battles without needing to pathetically run to weak little demons because you can't handle something. In the end, your abomination form is probably going to be weaker than you already are. I have no doubt my mages could easily defeat an abomination form of themselves and could do it 1 on 1.

It's funny. The chantry and circles teach that pride is one of the most dangerous things for a mage because it makes you weaker to demons. Yet my mages are so prideful that it's exactly why demons never even get close to possessing them. They are so prideful that they are safer from demons then mages who have no pride. A pride demon trying trying to use their pride against my mages wouldn't even work because they have too much pride to want anything a wimp like pride demons could offer. In fact, that's why demons want mages... They're weak and they know it, so they try to possess mages to try to get some of the mages strength for their own. They convince mages that they're weaker than demons and thus demons have power to offer them, but it's actually the opposite and demons are just using manipulation to let you power them up. In fact, the chantry makes it easier for demons by convincing mages that demons are all-powerful monsters who can take them over effortlessly. Mages believing that just makes it easier for demons to convince foolish mages that they'll be powered up by the demon and are more easily possessed because of it, when really they will be weaker and easier to kill as an abomination then in their true mage form.

The chantry would be better off teaching that demons are insignificant nothings that most mages will have no trouble completely overpowering and that demons just want you because they want your power because they have so little themselves. I can practically promise a lot more harrowings would be passed if this was what they taught.

And therein lies the problem. You think the demons are no threat to your PC because they are no actual threat to your PC. Being that prideful would just play onto a pride demons hands. It isn't as simple as the demon offers you power and makes you into a meat suit. It is temptation. You don't see it coming.

Much same issue with blood magic.

[Maria Caliban]

Well actually they can, sort of, in the form of some reaver abilities. They can also cast spirit magic (which all Templar abilities are, as well as reavers again with their aura of pain, and just about all the abilities a spirit warrior has)... You know, as I wrote this post I started to realize that spirit magic seems to be the one type of magic that mundanes truly do have an affinity for.  No mundanes can do stuff like shoot fire out of their hands or do entropic stuff or heal with magic, but there are a lot of examples of mundanes doing spirit magic. Even dwarves can do this stuff.
 
It seems spirit magic is the one form of magic sapient beings can do regardless of magical ability. What about it makes it distinct from other magic that non-mages can do it?

I've said this myself many times, but for some reason most posters don't seem to care.

There's ample examples of non-mages using magic. From dwarves casting rituals to warriors siphoning the life force of their foes. What non-mages can't do is tap the Fade directly and cast spells. The ability to draw from the Fade to such a degree is also what makes them a giant beacons for demons.

[andy6915]

And therein lies the problem. You think the demons are no threat to your PC because they are no actual threat to your PC. Being that prideful would just play onto a pride demons hands. It isn't as simple as the demon offers you power and makes you into a meat suit. It is temptation. You don't see it coming.

Much same issue with blood magic.

Really? And what temptation do you see working so effectively?

[GrayTimber]

I remember early on when they said that being a blood mage would make political scenes more difficult to handle, and that being a blood mage qunari would be the hardest way to play.

 

I was so looking forward to blood mage female qunari. 

[Shadow Fox]

Sorry if this has already be mentioned in this thread, but if they wanted Blood Magic to been seen as evil then maybe they shouldn't have given it to merrill. It seemed like they gave it to her just to subvert the idea that its evil for evil people only to do evil things with.

Two Words: Fel Magic

[Rhifox]

Sorry if this has already be mentioned in this thread, but if they wanted Blood Magic to been seen as evil then maybe they shouldn't have given it to merrill. It seemed like they gave it to her just to subvert the idea that its evil for evil people only to do evil things with.

 

A good person using evil magic doesn't make it good. That seemed to me to be the whole point of Merrill's character--that for all of her good intentions, her blood magic and her deals with demons ultimately ends in tragedy. If they wanted her example to subvert the idea that it's evil, then her plot would have been resolved on a high note, with everything working out despite the reservations of everyone else. Instead, her refusal to listen to the warnings insured that it ended as poorly as everyone around her knew it would.

 

Merrill highlighted that even good intentions don't justify the use of forbidden magic.

[The Elder King]

Speaking of blood magic being weaker for your character, blood magic is supposed to be insanely powerful. For example it apparently makes the mage extremely resistent to damage and gives them a Wolverine healing factor that lets them literally regrow lost limbs or reattach limbs and survive stabs with no serious injury (remember Merrill getting stabbed in her final companion quest if you fall for the trick, all she has a minor injury from what should have left her dying in a pool of blood). Experienced blood mages can survive way more than they should be able to, this is why most blood mages take such a beating in gameplay too. Oh, and it lets you do stuff like this-
 

 
 
 
That's far stronger than anything we could do with blood magic.

 
I haven't read the comics, so I'm going to ask: is dragonfire a BM general spell? I thought it was related to Theirin's blood, which contains dragon blood. In this case it woudn't be a spell most blood mages could use. 

[andy6915]

 
I haven't read the comics, so I'm going to ask: is dragonfire a BM general spell? I thought it was related to Theirin's blood, which contains dragon blood. In this case it woudn't be a spell most blood mages could use. 

You know... That's a good question. I have the humility to say that I actually don't know. Still, dragon's blood with blood magic being able to do that means a reaver mage would be capable of it anyway.

[Fraevar]

I already had felt that Blood Magic was not at all done particularly well from a gameplay-story integration perspective.  I considered it the most egregious fault in terms of narrative consistency, and to me it more came across as "here's this cool, really powerful thing that we think people will have fun with."

I have to agree with you here, Allan. Though at least in DA:O you actually had to make a deal with a demon to unlock the ability to use it, that was a nice touch. Having it available as a talent tree like any other in DA2 always rubbed me the wrong way, especially given the focus of the story.

 

Overall I hope that blood magic is treated with proper weight in Inquisition. The Inquisitor should have to make a deal with a demon to unlock it, as the lore prescribes, but the world should also be able to react to it. AKA if NPC's who are already interactive observes the player using it, they should react accordingly. Actually, I hope that would be the case with all magic use, as playing a mage in DA2 felt - strange - what with being able to cast fireballs and whatnot in the middle of a city crawling with templars without any consequence.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

But.... but Blood Wound/Hemorrhage!!!!

 

What's the point of wielding ungodly mystical powers if I can't make my enemies blood literally boil?!?!

 

Damn it all now I'm stuck as a Rogue.

[The Elder King]

You know... That's a good question. I have the humility to say that I actually don't know. Still, dragon's blood with blood magic being able to do that means a reaver mage would be capable of it anyway.

Probably. Though considering that Reavers aren't well known by the majority of the population, I doubt there'll be many Reaver blood mages. Plus, mages like in the Haven cult might not think about it.
I actually wonder if the Reaver (as all the specs) will be learnt in a similar manner of DAO, or like DA2. I hope for the former.

[Wulfram]

I agree with not allowing the PC to be a blood mage, if it's not possible to treat it with appropriate weight, but doing it because Blood Magic is supposed to be more evil is problematic.

 

Maybe Mr Lee was simply speaking a touch loosely - it's dangerous, and it effectively rewards evil - but with WoT suddenly deciding Blood magic runs on pain and suffering it seems like there's been a decision to remove any ambiguity there.

[Hellion Rex]

 
I haven't read the comics, so I'm going to ask: is dragonfire a BM general spell? I thought it was related to Theirin's blood, which contains dragon blood. In this case it woudn't be a spell most blood mages could use. 

It is indeed dealing with the Theirin blood line. So no, it is not normal blood magic.

[The Elder King]

It is indeed dealing with the Theirin blood line. So no, it is not normal blood magic.

Thanks for the clarification elu .

[O_OotherSide]

A good person using evil magic doesn't make it good. That seemed to me to be the whole point of Merrill's character--that for all of her good intentions, her blood magic and her deals with demons ultimately ends in tragedy. If they wanted her example to subvert the idea that it's evil, then her plot would have been resolved on a high note, with everything working out despite the reservations of everyone else. Instead, her refusal to listen to the warnings insured that it ended as poorly as everyone around her knew it would.

 

Merrill highlighted that even good intentions don't justify the use of forbidden magic.

 

But wasn't it her keeper that screwed everything up by being Possessed by the demon? It doesn't end in tragedy because she goes to far with it and dies but because her keeper tryed to stop her from using "evil" blood magic.

[In Exile]

I agree with not allowing the PC to be a blood mage, if it's not possible to treat it with appropriate weight, but doing it because Blood Magic is supposed to be more evil is problematic.

 

Maybe Mr Lee was simply speaking a touch loosely - it's dangerous, and it effectively rewards evil - but with WoT suddenly deciding Blood magic runs on pain and suffering it seems like there's been a decision to remove any ambiguity there.

 

WOT only says pain/suffering makes BM more potent, no?