that is that most basic and extreme version yes. but that type is mostly in fanfics. well done ones can be amusing because you know their going to win but some are.... creative. see alucard from hellsing.
basically from my experiences with mary sue characters:
when done well, they steal the show and you're jazzed to see what they do next.
when done badly, they drain the interest in the plot/conflict leaving you to feel "what's the point then?"
Little late to be complaing about Mary-Sue's now, this was a bigger problem much earlier than DAI. DAO, the first game in the series, had the biggest one in said series... The Warden.
It's pretty much a meaningless term.
It's pretty much a meaningless term.
no it as a meaning, but like everything else people twist around and pervert it to suit their wants.
I mary sued ME3 having shep rally everyone to assault earth: humans, turians, krogans, asari, geth, quarians and the other minor races. Even leviathans 
Aren't Mary-Sues supposed to be characters that are the absolute best at EVERYTHING?
Hey Cousland Warden, remember that time you gave me a right thrashing at that tourney since you are so perfect at fighting and stuff? Lets go have sex you handsome stud!
They never fail at anything ever.
Ok Warden here are your choices, option one, the girl dies, option two the boy dies
Warden: "I CHOOSE OPTION THREE! EVERYONE LIVES!!!!!!"
They're the characters who take down an entire room full of baddies without breaking a sweat all with ballet-esque elegance
Yeah who needs an army when you can take an entire Keep by yourself? Who needs siege equipment when you can bash down a gate with nothing but your shield?
and then busting out a cliched witticism at the end of it.
But yeah I don't really think any of Bioware's characters fill the slot.
ARE YOU ****** WITH ME?!?!?!
I think most RPG protagonists could reasonably be said to be Mary Sues, in BioWare games or others. Whether that's a bad thing is up for debate.
Most have extraordinary and relatively unique backstories within the setting. Either from being born that way (eg Skyrim's Dragonborn) or from something happening to them early on in the story (which sounds what the Inquisitor will be like). Even if they don't they're usually skilled in ways above the average adventurer.
They also tend to draw focus away from other characters or are forced into every situation. In BioWare games at least a companions story can't be developed and completed without the player character present (I, personally, would love for a BioWare game where you went on sidequests in which you played as the companion - maybe with another companion or two, but not the PC, accompanying them - and got to see their story arc unfold, but I don't think many others would like that).
And, especially with characters who dump their points into persuade or whatever the equivalent is, they can get almost every character to like them; often even the villain.
Those are all traits that if the story wasn't an RPG but instead focused on a set character would cause people to hate them and think of them as boring, but they're accepted in an RPG because they let the player feel awesome and play the character they want to play (by making it possible for everyone to be your friend, the player can make the choice that not everyone is their friend; though that would require a lot of restraint on the players part, at least in terms of BioWare companions not being your friend).
You could have an RPG without all those things, but it would be very difficult, and would probably only appeal to a niche. You couldn't just give the protagonists flaws, otherwise people would feel it's not really their character. You'd have to include the option of flaws, but that would be a choice the player would have to make, and not many would make that choice. You could have the player unable to talk their way out of any situation, or be unable to become friends with characters, but then people would just complain about the game forcing a set story and choices on them ("What? You mean I can't just talk my way out of this prison cell? The guard refuses to let me out? What a terrible RPG with a linear story that forces me to stay in prison; "Why can't I be friends with this person? I Know our characters would get on great. Sucks that they're forcing us to remain enemies just so the story goes the way the devs want").
I think the most you could resonably expect to get away with doing is just having the protagonist being an average joe rather than a super extraordinary person, though you'd have to steer clear of any save the world, or even save the city, plots. Leveling and abilities and the like would also have to be rather constrained, because even though there are RPGs where you start off as an average adventurer, by the end of it you're normally running around with powers and abilities that it's just not reasonable for you to have (though that sort of fits into the gameplay/story segregation).
In the end it would reach a point of trying not to have the protagonist be a Mary Sue that you may as well not make the game an RPG and just have it be a set story with set characters.
TLDR: Mary Sues are an important part of RPGs.
yet they also seem completely oblivious to the fact that all of Bioware's recent protagonists have been Mary Sues?
Only if you want them to be.
Calm down, you pear! Think of your blood pressure!
Calm down, you pear! Think of your blood pressure!
PEARS DON'T HAVE BLOOD PRESSURE!!!!!!
PEARS DON'T HAVE BLOOD PRESSURE!!!!!!
No, but they have juice pressure. They have juice in them, and the pressure is why some juice leaks out when you cut into it. So think of your juice pressure!
PEARS DON'T HAVE BLOOD PRESSURE!!!!!!
WELL, THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED!!!!!!!!!!
Mild cases remain the cases just the same. "It could've been worse, way worse" isn't really much of a defense -- it can always be even worse.The term is useful for describing a certain type of character, but it's definitely overused. People should try reading more OC centered fanfiction (or even the Star Trek parody story that the term originated from) if they want to know what a real Mary Sue looks like. The characters in popular original fictions that people often cite as Mary Sues are usually very mild cases at worst.
ARE YOU ****** WITH ME?!?!?!
Tut, tut such selective attention is unseemly Crowe. Lets just ignore all the times Bioware protags have been (or have had the potential to be) abject failures/have less than optimal results/made choices with unintended consequences. I have an assignment to finish and I already have the attention span of a guppy (which is probably why it's taken me four hours to write three pages >.>) otherwise I'd get all pedantic up in this ****** to prove my point but only picking out instances that support your argument while totally ignoring all those that don't is terribly bad form sir and/or madame. ~waggles finger of censure~
Mild cases remain the cases just the same. "It could've been worse, way worse" isn't really much of a defense -- it can always be even worse.
Personally I don't see how it can get worse in the Dragon Age games short of giving the protagonist god powers which funnily enough they already seem to be doing in Inquisition.
Tut, tut such selective attention is unseemly Crowe. Lets just ignore all the times Bioware protags have been (or have had the potential to be) abject failures/have less than optimal results/made choices with unintended consequences. I have an assignment to finish and I already have the attention span of a guppy (which is probably why it's taken me four hours to write three pages >.>) otherwise I'd get all pedantic up in this ****** to prove my point but only picking out instances that support your argument while totally ignoring all those that don't is terribly bad form sir and/or madame. ~waggles finger of censure~
Yeah but those Instances are very easy to ignore due to the fact that they don't actually exist, I mean if they did exist one would think you would have brought them up instead of covering your retreat with hot air and empty statements.
Just an FYI: situations where you need to go out of your way to purposely **** up don't count.
Oh, it can. Right off the bat, a really good Mary Sue would make Vaughan fall in love with her on the spot, denounce his wicked ways and kidnap only her, for the sole purpose of courting her as the bride-to-be. Something she'd feel dramatically torn about for 2-3 chapters or so.Personally I don't see how it can get worse in the Dragon Age games short of giving the protagonist god powers which funnily enough they already seem to be doing in Inquisition.
Yeah but those Instances are very easy to ignore due to the fact that they don't actually exist, I mean if they did exist one would think you would have brought them up instead of covering your retreat with hot air and empty statements.
Just an FYI: situations where you need to go out of your way to purposely **** up don't count.
Dammit pear button pusher.
Warden:
Cousland Warden's entire family dies, total failure in saving anyone they care for.
Dalish Warden fails in saving whatsisface and later has to kill him or whatever.
City Elf fails in saving his/her niece before she's raped.
Noble dwarf is one-upped by his/her baby brother.
I could go on but you get the point right? Every Origin has one of these moments of failure.
The Warden and Alistair don't get up the Tower of Ishal fast enough to save the King or Duncan.
The Warden always falls under the influence of that sloth demon in the tower, granted they beat him in the end but why fall under it's sway in the first place?
The Warden takes too long to martial there forces and the bulk of Denerim and a not insignificant chunk of Fereldan falls as a result.
The only way the Warden beats the Archdemon is through sacrificing a companion or doing the dark ritual or dying, a Mary-Sue never dies. Permanently anyway.
Got outsmarted by Branka/Bronco whateverherface in the Deep Roads.
Had a lot of help in the final battle with the Archdemon too.
Didn't actually manage to kill Flemeth.
Overall though if I had to apply the Mary-Sue label to anyone it would be the Warden. S/he has the ability to be excellent/succeed in most things, if not all.
Hawke:
Litany of failures. Fails to save his/her sibling, potentially twice but definitely once.
Fails to stop the mage/templar war or if they chose a side failed to get a decisive victory.
Failed to save his/her mother.
If s/he so chose failed to kill Talis.
Failed to kill Corypheus.
Eventually failed as a social climber.
Failed to notice what Anders was up to or failed to do anything about it (if s/he wanted to).
Failed to stop Petrice's machinations if s/he wanted to.
Shepard: I'm just doing ME3 here since I can't actually remember much of the other two but!
Kai Leng.
Fails to stop self/Illusive Man from using the Shepard sock-puppet to shoot Anderson.
Got outsmarted by Brooks.
Took too long to stop the Reapers and had to die/go MIA to stop them.
Lost Thessia.
Was an incredibly crappy/slow shot and got Thane stabbed.
Totally got cheated on if she went with Jacob.
Totally had PTSD.
Is a bad dancer.
Aren't Mary-Sues supposed to be characters that are the absolute best at EVERYTHING? They never fail at anything ever. They're the characters who take down an entire room full of baddies without breaking a sweat all with ballet-esque elegance and then busting out a cliched witticism at the end of it. Yah know, that kinda thing. You get them a lot in bad books. Probably one of my least favourite character types, it doesn't help that they're usually completely flat with no development because they're perfect already. But yeah I don't really think any of Bioware's characters fill the slot.
That's not quite correct: Sues can have nominal flaws, but they tend to be cast in a sympathetic way intended to make people view the Sue in a better rather than worse light. The tragic past and loneliness was/is a common one, as the nominal flaw 'social outcast/loneliness' can be used to justify other characters turning the Sue into their priority. Even weakness can be used to justify being the center of attention and focus- sort of a reverse power fantasy.
There are different kinds of Sue archetypes, but to me the general unifying trend to identify sues is that they become the center of attention, adoration, and focus for the cast, and the trait of not adoring the Sue is treated as a character flaw. Flaws are generally limited, rarely addressed as negatives, and if addressed at all are frequently used as a sympathy gambit. Everything about them, and almost everyone around them, is intended to emphasize that they should be liked.
I would agree that RPGs are prone to this. (Paragon) Shepard in particular- everyone who isn't trash or irredeemably in opposition loves and respects the always kind, benevolent, sympathetic, successful, and appreciated Paragon Commander who is never called out for moralizing inconsistencies, double standards, or failures except as a means of identifying the extremely rare complainer as unreasonable and wrong-headed. The ME companions border from virtually guaranteed respect to adoration despite a lack of compelling leadership from Shepard, and some them could be called borderline-sycophantic in their relationship with Shepard. Despite losing any plot-relevant uniqueness after ME1, Shepard is elevated as the central and most important (and generally adored) figure of the story because reasons.
Why is Shepard worth more than a dreadnaught, resurrected from the dead not as a plot point but as an interest catch, and needed for a suicide mission? Because TIM is a fanboy. Why is someone who we never see spend any significant time in a trench and who is given highly preferential treatment by the military and politicians treated as 'just another line soldier' who is 'an inspirational hero for the troops' while dealing with war stress from a billet on a well-supplied stealth ship far away from the Reaper War front lines with regular access to the Citadel? Because the writers probably don't know too much about how soldiers think, and because 'Hackett's errand boy' wasn't glamorous enough.
Now, some will say this is unavoidable because Shepard is the protagonist. The story has to be centered around them. Well... to a degree. How the story fits around Shepard is up to the writers. When something like the Lazarus Project is used and barely touched on or developed afterwards, that's not necessity- that's bling. Shepard doesn't need to be super-cool cyborg-zombie commando to advance the plot.
Mind you, enough people enjoyed Paragon Shepard that I bet I'll get more than a few disagreements centered around the crux of 'I enjoyed ParaShep and they weren't Sues because I liked them and/or headcanon reasons and flaws.' To which I say... good for you. Headcanon is useful. And not all Mary Sues are poorly received.
Nanako Dojima from Persona 4 is a pretty strong correlation to being a Purity Sue. She's an endearing, sweet child without a malevolent bone in her body and basically captured the heart of every character in the game by being an ideal little-sister archetype. Her 'flaws' are the harmless failings and endearing aspects of being a child, and used to make protecting her a primary motivation for a major character and a secondary motivation for everyone else. Her sad past of a dead mother and a father who ignores her too much for being a policeman are very much used for sympathy. And did I mention that everyone with a soul likes her?
She's not a player in the murder mystery investigation. She doesn't help or even know about the dungeon crawling. She really doesn't do anything besides sit around and be morally flawless and be adored. Her greatest involvement with the plot is being the victim, and suddenly the entire plot and every major character for the rest of the arc is fixated on her and only her. Her life or death literally determines how the game ends.
But she's enjoyable, so most people don't mind. And did I mention she's adorable?
"Highly skilled and extremely competent" does not equal Mary Sue. "Impossibly perfect" or "the universe revolves around this character" equals Mary Sue.
Ironically, people complained because the universe didn't revolve around their Shepard.
Often in the same breath as complaining about the Alliance arresting Shepard, no less.
Oh, it can. Right off the bat, a really good Mary Sue would make Vaughan fall in love with her on the spot, denounce his wicked ways and kidnap only her, for the sole purpose of courting her as the bride-to-be. Something she'd feel dramatically torn about for 2-3 chapters or so.
And my character got smacked in the face, nearly ganged raped, had to what her husband die, and walked in while her cousin was being raped.
My elvin warden wants this perfection this guy is taking about.
Shepard is still Space Jesus though, especially in a "Shepard died for our sins" kinda way and the utter devotion the party members have of you.
But she's enjoyable, so most people don't mind. And did I mention she's adorable?
Nice post, informational. Just as an aside I found Nanako kinda boring, I liked her father more. At least in a "more interesting" way and not in a "I like him as a person" way.
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