257 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I do worry about the Inquisitor being a Sue. That is, I worry about the world and the cast revolving around them to the point they feel like godlings whose purpose is to order Thedas just the way I want. The rules not applying to them. In ME, it feels like the worth of a character depends on how much they defer to Shepard and, if they ever don't, they will either die or grovel. Shepard is declared special more or less by authorial fiat.

One thing that helped ground the Warden for me was the origin. They are the product of a particular history and culture so that certain things become unthinkable, even if it's the optimal path. Hawke, too, is grounded in the world by his relationship to his friendsand family. And in both games there are characters who are allowed to drive parts of the plot alongside the PC. Alistair, Morrigan, and Anders have importance to the world beyond what they do for the PC.

The marketing is giving me a Shep 2.0 vibe and that's not a good thing.

[Maiden Crowe]

Cousland Warden's entire family dies, total failure in saving anyone they care for.

Dalish Warden fails in saving whatsisface and later has to kill him or whatever.

City Elf fails in saving his/her niece before she's raped.

Noble dwarf is one-upped by his/her baby brother.

 

Seriously? The whole "Family was killed and raped"  has to be the most common cliche among Mary Sue backstories, I would be more surprised to see a Mary Sue story where one of the above doesn't happen.

 

The Warden and Alistair don't get up the Tower of Ishal fast enough to save the King or Duncan.

The Warden always falls under the influence of that sloth demon in the tower, granted they beat him in the end but why fall under it's sway in the first place?

The Warden takes too long to martial there forces and the bulk of Denerim and a not insignificant chunk of Fereldan falls as a result.

The only way the Warden beats the Archdemon is through sacrificing a companion or doing the dark ritual or dying, a Mary-Sue never dies. Permanently anyway.

Got outsmarted by Branka/Bronco whateverherface in the Deep Roads.

Had a lot of help in the final battle with the Archdemon too.

Didn't actually manage to kill Flemeth.

 

All those instances can hardly be considered failings of the Warden, Alistair and the Warden actually succeed in lighting the signal fire (despite the odds being highly stacked against them due to the incompetence of others) and the reason the King and Duncan die is because of Loghain's betrayal. The very fact that the Warden is able to break free of the Sloth Demon's influence through their own strength of will is a feat in itself, a feat that nobody else was able to perform (bar Morrigan sort of) by themselves as they all required the Warden's help to do so. The losses in the 5th blight were actually far less that that of any previous blight due to the efforts of the Warden, in fact the Warden was able to stop the blight before it really got out of control, the same can not be said of previous blights.

 

As for Mary Sues never dying another common trend in Mary Sue stories is the heroic sacrifice where the main character gives their life for the good of the world and is subsequently mourned by everyone afterwards. Of course that being said Bioware made that death easily avoidable allowing the player to choose their flavor of Mary Sue ending, the ending where the Hero lives to tell the tale and is celebrated as a hero or the ending where the hero makes a heroic sacrifice saving the world.

 

I could go on but even if there are rare circumstances where these characters are shown in a less than ideal light such situations are in the vast minority.

[Maiden Crowe]

Shepard is still Space Jesus though, especially in a "Shepard died for our sins" kinda way and the utter devotion the party members have of you.

 

Yeah well the Inquisitor is fantasy Jesus

 

 

[leaguer of one]

Seriously? The whole "Family was killed and raped"  has to be the most common cliche among Mary Sue backstories, I would be more surprised to see a Mary Sue story where one of the above doesn't happen.

 

 

 

All those instances can hardly be considered failings of the Warden, Alistair and the Warden actually succeed in lighting the signal fire (despite the odds being highly stacked against them due to the incompetence of others) and the reason the King and Duncan die is because of Loghain's betrayal. The very fact that the Warden is able to break free of the Sloth Demon's influence through their own strength of will is a feat in itself, a feat that nobody else was able to perform (bar Morrigan sort of) by themselves as they all required the Warden's help to do so. The losses in the 5th blight were actually far less that that of any previous blight due to the efforts of the Warden, in fact the Warden was able to stop the blight before it really got out of control, the same can not be said of previous blights.

 

As for Mary Sues never dying another common trend in Mary Sue stories is the heroic sacrifice where the main character gives their life for the good of the world and is subsequently mourned by everyone afterwards. Of course that being said Bioware made that death easily avoidable allowing the player to choose their flavor of Mary Sue ending, the ending where the Hero lives to tell the tale and is celebrated as a hero or the ending where the hero makes a heroic sacrifice saving the world.

 

I could go on but even if there are rare circumstances where these characters are shown in a less than ideal light such situations are in the vast minority.

1. And the other back grounds?

 

2.We have yet seen the full consequences of the end of DAO. We don't know how it's going to effect the rest of the story to say it's a flawed move or not.

[Fredward]

I could go on but even if there are rare circumstances where these characters are shown in a less than ideal light such situations are in the vast minority.

 

~shrug~ Like I said the Warden is the most likely one to fit the traditional Sue stereotype. Of course if Dean is right about his different-kind-of-Sue's argument and some Sue's are allowed to fail/be bad at things than Shepard is totally a Sue too. But Hawke still isn't. I think. Unless you get a Sue of Fail or something. And since s/he is the latest installment in the DA franchise it's kiiiiiinda leery to just assume the DA team is going in that direction with the Inquisitor.

[drake heath]

 

Yeah well the Inquisitor is fantasy Jesus

 

 

 

If I had a dime for every time someone ripped off the Last Supper in their marketing I'd have a ton of dimes.

[Dean_the_Young]

If I had a dime for every time someone ripped off the Last Supper in their marketing I'd have a ton of dimes.

 

Now imagine the person who gets the royalties for the table pose the Last Supper ripped off.

[Fredward]

You guys are so silly, how can it be the Last Supper if there's no food on the table? Actually nevermind I think I see cheese.

[metatheurgist]

Look at wut i found guyz!

http://en.m.wikipedi...g/wiki/Mary_Sue

That's the great thing about English, it changes, so if enough people pick up a wrong definition and run with it then it becomes the new definition. Kinda like how RPGs are games where you play a role now.

[Mockingword]

That's the great thing about English, it changes, so if enough people pick up a wrong definition and run with it then it becomes the new definition. Kinda like how RPGs are games where you play a role now.

What were they before?

[Maiden Crowe]

What were they before?

 

Number generators?

[Mockingword]

Number generators?

Ew.

 

I think I like them better now.

[Gwydden]

What were they before?

Well...

Retrograde pyelogram, a.k.a. RPG, a medical imaging procedure to visualize the urinary tract.

[Inprea]

I hope the writers don't even think about whether or not the Inquisitor is a Mary Sue. I fear it would make them more prone to forcing defeat upon the player. This isn't just a movie we're watching or book we're reading after all and even then I would recommend the writer not worry. I would prefer they focus on making the character as enjoyable to play as they can. Now I know that can cause some issues as some want that defeat and others don't. I would prefer if they went the Suikoden 3 or Growlanser Heritage of war path. They're a few extremely difficult fights in each of the games. In these fights the story continues if you lose, if you win or if you retreat though the dialogue and end results differ a bit.

 

In Growlanswer for example if you lose to one of the enemy's top generals your companions lose some faith in you. If you retreat they give you a little favoritism so long as you're the last one on the field they believe you were only looking out for their safety but worry about your courage just a bit. The deduction is very tiny. If you win they commend your valor and ability but also worry that you may be too reckless. I should mention the enemy general is a slayer which means he's killed that fantasy settings version of a high dragon in one on one combat.

 

Though I'm sure some feel that the defeat must be literally forced on everyone.

[Mockingword]

Well...

Sexy.

[Alejandrawrr]

Only if you want them to be.

This. The point is, they give you options, ideally as many options as possible. Some of us imagine a character, flesh out said character's personality (and thus, what they'd do in certain situations), and roleplay the game with the intention of sticking to that character's established inclinations. These people are a lot less likely find the PC sue-ish than say, someone who reads the guides and plays the game according to each possible "best case scenario" regardless of whether one choice makes sense given the character's previously established personality. Yeah if you do that, the character will seem sue-ish as the devs generally have at least one "best case scenario" for each situation, but that doesn't mean the game should assume everyone is going to do this and force failure/suckiness on everyone as a result.

The only mandatory classically sue-ish trait I can think of in Origins is the whole "being a newcomer but somehow being effortlessly made the star/leader of a movement, without even necessarily wanting it" part, which is pretty common in sue fics. I think Origins even realized this and kinda lampshaded it with a Morrigan-Alistair dialogue early on... But anyway, this does appear to be repeating itself with the Inquisitor again, but the rest of it will depend on how you role play them *shrug*

[Paul E Dangerously]

The only mandatory classically sue-ish trait I can think of in Origins is the whole "being a newcomer but somehow being effortlessly made the star/leader of a movement, without even necessarily wanting it" part, which is pretty common in sue fics. I think Origins even realized this and kinda lampshaded it with a Morrigan-Alistair dialogue early on... But anyway, this does appear to be repeating itself with the Inquisitor again, but the rest of it will depend on how you role play them *shrug*

 

I don't even know about that. The Warden's one of only two survivors, so it's not really "effortlessly" and given that your movement consists of two people and possibly a dog, then later an apostate mage..I don't know if it's that much of an achievement. Plus, Alistair evades responsibility so well he probably should have been a rogue. The Hero of Ferelden basically gets leadership by default.

 

And after DA2, I wonder how many people actually mind playing a character that's special and actually able to influence events.

[Beerfish]

Yeah, my pappy named me Sue, just to toughen me up what of it?

[metatheurgist]

What were they before?

Rocket Propelled Grenades, duh!

[zambingo]

So what is the definition of Mary Sue? I mean I see so many people on these forums talking about how lame Mary Sues are yet they also seem completely oblivious to the fact that all of Bioware's recent protagonists have been Mary Sues? How would the Inquisitor be any less of a Mary Sue than the OGB (provided that they aren't already one and the same)?

In all honesty do you really want to play a character who isn't a Mary Sue?

As I understand it;

The literary term 'Mary Sue' means a character that exists purely as an idealistic extension of and gratification for the writer/reader. In addition this character bypasses /or trumps the skill/traits of established /or simply other characters while said characters stand ideally by.

eg. Star Trek's trio of Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam down and face certain doom. Thankfully Lieutenant Redshirt Sexypants is part of the landing party. Redsexy, as his friends call him, is able to outwit the danger which has confounded our series regulars. With the day saved the series regulars all appreciate their new found companion and fold him into the group as one of their own. Bedroom attire strictly optional.

While a PC certainly is an extension of the player in the simplistiest form of being a 'Mary Sue', in well written cases a PC will require the expertise of those around them to fulfill the story's goal. Needing the skills/traits of your companions, needing their plot input alleviates "The Gawd Damn Batman" syndrome which is integral and arguably the primary aspect of 'Mary Sue' characters.

But I'm an idiot, so don't take my word for it.

[drake heath]

A Mary Sue is someone in a story who is special and always right for no real reason other than the story says so.

 

That's the major part, because if say, a character is a literal god and can do anything, they wouldn't be a Mary Sue because within the context of their character it makes sense they'd be super special and omniscient.

 

You can tell if a character is a Mary Sue by asking why they're so special and why they're always right.

 

If the answer is anything beyond because the story says so than they might not be a Mary Sue*.

 

 

*But this doesn't mean they still can't be a badly written or contrived character.

[Mockingword]

But everything in a story is only the way it is because the story says so. 

[drake heath]

But everything in a story is only the way it is because the story says so. 

"Why is this person special?"

 

"They just are."

 

Vs.

 

"Why is this person special?"

 

"They're literally the son of God."

 

One's a reason the other is a deceleration on the part of the author with no basis in-universe.

It's the difference between someone being the messiah vs. someone being treated like they're the messiah for no reason within the context of the story other than the author just wants it to be.

 

Like, for example, Bella Swan is a dull, uninteresting and lame character, but she's lusted after by warewolves and vampires for no reason other than the author wanted it to be that way.

 

But of course this is just my definition, I'm sure everyone has their own ideas as to what the term means.

[leaguer of one]

As I understand it;

The literary term 'Mary Sue' means a character that exists purely as an idealistic extension of and gratification for the writer/reader. In addition this character bypasses /or trumps the skill/traits of established /or simply other characters while said characters stand ideally by.

eg. Star Trek's trio of Kirk, Spock and McCoy beam down and face certain doom. Thankfully Lieutenant Redshirt Sexypants is part of the landing party. Redsexy, as his friends call him, is able to outwit the danger which has confounded our series regulars. With the day saved the series regulars all appreciate their new found companion and fold him into the group as one of their own. Bedroom attire strictly optional.

While a PC certainly is an extension of the player in the simplistiest form of being a 'Mary Sue', in well written cases a PC will require the expertise of those around them to fulfill the story's goal. Needing the skills/traits of your companions, needing their plot input alleviates "The Gawd Damn Batman" syndrome which is integral and arguably the primary aspect of 'Mary Sue' characters.

But I'm an idiot, so don't take my word for it.

So all this statement of bw mc being Sues is bs.

[Mockingword]

I dunno, I feel like Bella's appeal is adequately explained by the fact that abusive, predatory men tend to target women with low self-esteem.