I dunno, I feel like Bella's appeal is adequately explained by the fact that abusive, predatory men tend to target women with low self-esteem.
So much that they try to kill one another for her? Don't men who look for woman like that because they want someone who they can munch on who is disposable?
Yeah, my pappy named me Sue, just to toughen me up what of it?
Wanna fight about it?
So much that they try to kill one another for her? Don't men who look for woman like that because they want someone who they can munch on who is disposable?
Well, I dunno much about what straight men want generally. I assumed someone to clean up after them.
So much that they try to kill one another for her? Don't men who look for woman like that because they want someone who they can munch on who is disposable?
Yeah, no one who targets people with low self esteem starts werewolf-vampire wars over them.
They'd just find some other schmuck to eat.
Just for balance, considering the last few exchanges; I am straight, married with kids and I clean up after everyone being that I am a Mr. Mom. A career path I've chosen because one day I hope to be Batman.
Well, I was just joking.
The truth is that the male posturing in Twilight isn't really about Bella at all. It's about being the alpha male. It's even more obvious when one of the men is a dog.
A Mary Sue is someone in a story who is special and always right for no real reason other than the story says so.
Well put.
Being a Mary Sue is not the same as being extremely powerful, attractive, capable, intelligent or important to the story. And it is definitely not the same as being a protagonist, who is generally the most important person in the story anyway.
The only way the Inquisitor is a Mary or Gary Stu is if you insert yourself in the story, aka projecting into the main character really hard. The rest is just bad character development or writing.
The only mandatory classically sue-ish trait I can think of in Origins is the whole "being a newcomer but somehow being effortlessly made the star/leader of a movement, without even necessarily wanting it" part, which is pretty common in sue fics. I think Origins even realized this and kinda lampshaded it with a Morrigan-Alistair dialogue early on... But anyway, this does appear to be repeating itself with the Inquisitor again, but the rest of it will depend on how you role play them *shrug*
And don't forget the part where the Warden magically solves all the major problems of Fereldan by her/himslef although everyone else failed miserably.
Examples:
A pride demon has taken over the circle tower. A demon that is supposedly capable of turning entire cities to ashes. And the templars there are pretty much powerless against it, until the warden and her/his army of three random people, s/he recruited off the street, come and slay said demon after killing hudred lesser demons before. Seriously?
Dwarf king is dead and the nobles can't decide on a new one? Don't worry for I, the Warden, a convicted criminal that was cast out from Orzammar/ random stranger from the surface that hasn't even set foot into Orzammar before, shall solve all your problems, although I have no idea why you guys should even listen to me in the first place.
The ashes of Andraste, believed to be merely a myth, shrouded by mystery and it's existance kept secret by the cultists for centuries. The Warden finds it in like a week after s/he starts looking for it.
And you can't fail in any of these missions. You always solve all the problems no other being could have solved, because... I don't know.... you are special.. I guess.
That being said that is basically the norm in almost every videogame ever and doesn't mean the game is bad. DAO was still extremely awesome, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that the Warden is quite Sueish.
It's a RPG...the protagonist is bound to be quite sueish. >_> I mean...really not all sues are bad.
Dwarf king is dead and the nobles can't decide on a new one? Don't worry for I, the Warden, a convicted criminal that was cast out from Orzammar/ random stranger from the surface that hasn't even set foot into Orzammar before, shall solve all your problems, although I have no idea why you guys should even listen to me in the first place.
No, the best part is where you show up with the Crown - and even assuming they accept it as authentic - they totally let you, random stranger or convicted criminal or exiled noble, pick who their ruler is going to be with absolutely no objection, except basically from Bhelen. It defies belief you get a say in this.
No, the best part is where you show up with the Crown - and even assuming they accept it as authentic - they totally let you, random stranger or convicted criminal or exiled noble, pick who their ruler is going to be with absolutely no objection, except basically from Bhelen. It defies belief you get a say in this.
This wouldn't have been so bad if they had said the dwarves had been at it for months and there were heavy casualties on both sides and it's gotten to the point where most of them just wanted it over with. Maybe one small part is pro Bhelen, other is pro-Harrowmont and the rest just want Orzammar to open up again so they can make their money. That way at least you could see it as a 'FINALLY' moment.
did I miss David?
The dwarves especially those that aren't surfacers seem easily lead and chained to dogma, perhaps more so than even the Chantry's followers. Presented with a scenario that fills all their traditions the dwarves seem compelled to side with it regardless of personal belief. This is adequately detailed in their caste system, in the DN origin and further solidified during the coronation of their new ruler.
As such it is, IMO, extremely plausible that the Wardens find themselves in a position to influence the Dwarven hierarchy.
The Circle events could be a bit harder to justify, however we can grant that the Warden succeeds in no small part to the First Enchanter's efforts prior to arrival, Wynne's efforts prior to arrival, Cullen's efforts prior to arrival (who knows how that could have influenced events had he succumbed, perhaps there is something remarkable about him). Essentially it can be argued that The Warden is the final straw which tips the scales, not the sole victor.
Okay I'll give you the first point about the dwarves, eben though I still find it doubtable. But their traditions really are stupid enough to warrant some random person choosing their king. After all they are the guys who thought it would be a good idea to have a caste system in which to most powerful caste can vote a king who rules all of orzammar. Expect when someone invents some sort of coal. Then said inventor shall be honored as god and be able to command everybody around as s/he sees fit.
But your second point makes no sense. Irving and Cullen both were allready defeated by the demons once you arrive. They didn't contibute anything to the warden slaying the pride demon since they were alredy captured and powerless. Wynne didn't acomplish anything but to stall the demons, she didn't stand a chance in the long run (Plus demons already killed her once before.) They never stood any chance until Fereldens version of Rambo (known as the Warden) showed up and magically pummeled all the demons into submission with no more help than 3 other people, whereas the entire templar order and all the mages failed before.
Again I'm not saying that the game is bad. It's basically my favourite game, but the plot is still sometimes questionable if you look at it rationally.
To be fair, it is technically more along the lines of their paragon, i.e. what comes pretty much close to a deity bestowing the power to choose on that random schmuck, for whatever reasons the deity found appropriate. So as long as they accept the crown as authentic sign you have Paragon Authority™ behind you, it's going to be difficult for them to argue that nope, their godlike being had no idea what he/she was doing, and the mouthpiece shouldn't be listened to.No, the best part is where you show up with the Crown - and even assuming they accept it as authentic - they totally let you, random stranger or convicted criminal or exiled noble, pick who their ruler is going to be with absolutely no objection, except basically from Bhelen. It defies belief you get a say in this.
Excuse me, but my Inquisitor's name is Gary Stu, thank you very much.
Mines Merrily Sued
So what is the definition of Mary Sue?
Kahlee Sanders.
Proof is in the pudding.
People got an utter Mary Sue in the Warden and they won't let him/her go.
People got the opposite of a Mary Sue in Hawke (a capable person who had a lot of bad things happen to them) and they mostly hated/rejected the character.
So, People rejected Hawke, while continue loving their Revan/Bhaalspawn/Warden/etc.
Mind you, people also rejected Shepard's fragility in Mass Effect 3, even though the game beat you over the head and shoulders that you were just one person and your odds were nil, people pointed to the things you survived in previous games and said, "Why now is he suddenly getting flash fried by Harbinger's beam???" "Why did he get beaten by Kai Leng? OMG So contrived! Bioware fail!!!!" etc
Again, people very vocally rejected the fragile, imperfect protagonist.
Gamers like powerful, capable protagonists who save the world. This isn't even a Bioware-only thing. Glance over at Assassin's Creed. Their most popular heroes? The badasses who always won and were basically perfect. Their least popular? The one who ultimately lost everything he had fought for.
This wouldn't have been so bad if they had said the dwarves had been at it for months and there were heavy casualties on both sides and it's gotten to the point where most of them just wanted it over with. Maybe one small part is pro Bhelen, other is pro-Harrowmont and the rest just want Orzammar to open up again so they can make their money. That way at least you could see it as a 'FINALLY' moment.
Even still, there are huge legitimacy issues when the leader is basically appointed by a foreigner whose only reason to be there is to basically have your citizens die in a foreign war.
To be fair, it is technically more along the lines of their paragon, i.e. what comes pretty much close to a deity bestowing the power to choose on that random schmuck, for whatever reasons the deity found appropriate. So as long as they accept the crown as authentic sign you have Paragon Authority™ behind you, it's going to be difficult for them to argue that nope, their godlike being had no idea what he/she was doing, and the mouthpiece shouldn't be listened to.
Like I said: even if you could absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt prove that the Crown was given by the paragon, there is absolutely no way of proving that the paragon gave you the Crown to pick whoever you like. Especially when we're talking about Caridan, who is basically an ancient mythical unicorn by that point. You were gone for months in the deep roads and came back with a Crown. You could as easily found that thing in a grave. Especially since you've been working as a political operate.
It's one thing if Branka/Caridan walked back with you, and they listened to your advice. But there is absolutely no evidence you are completely full of garbage, especially since you've abandoned your political neutrality to start with by favouring Bhelen or Harrowmont. Even if you betray them, you're still an interested party.
I pretty much play Bioware games because everything I do ends up perfect. I vote for making the inquisitor another "perfect".
Even still, there are huge legitimacy issues when the leader is basically appointed by a foreigner whose only reason to be there is to basically have your citizens die in a foreign war.
To be fair it's a foreign war they promised to help with.
That's regular problem with messengers, isn't it? Even if you accept as a fact that a guy saw a burning bush, there's absolutely no guarantee that what he says the bush told him is actually what the bush told him. At some point it boils down to trusting the person they're relaying the message faithfully instead of making **** up.Like I said: even if you could absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt prove that the Crown was given by the paragon, there is absolutely no way of proving that the paragon gave you the Crown to pick whoever you like.
That's regular problem with messengers, isn't it? Even if you accept as a fact that a guy saw a burning bush, there's absolutely no guarantee that what he says the bush told him is actually what the bush told him. At some point it boils down to trusting the person they're relaying the message faithfully instead of making **** up.
Of course. Which is what makes the scenario so absurd. The dwarves are all about political battles. There's nothing about the Crown that doesn't perpetrate this same legitimacy crisis. Bioware's allowing the protagonist to end the political debate, even if the paragon's worth is supposedly law, is strange.
But then you know, maybe the paragon simply engraved on that crown, "yo, that person who hands you this trinket, they have authority to pick your ruler because you idiots seem incapable of handling it on your own".
Even if that were true, the politicians could still challenge it as being legitimate, or as the person who makes that decision can only be a dwarf in "good" standing with the assembly because that's what the paragon would really have meant, etc.
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