257 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Tallis was infuriating, plot armored, and seemingly developer favored or something, but gods she is awful

 

She could also Jedi Mind trick you into giving her the list. 

[leaguer of one]

Or a male character. Like Superman.

Correction:

Sneezing Silver age Superman

[Maiden Crowe]

You have not proven anything except you don't know what a Mary sue is.

 

Calling me out on not knowing what a Mary Sue is despite not knowing yourself? Not exactly disproving the hypocrite assertion are you? In all honesty from what I have seen I am probably one of the only few on these forums who actually understands the term.

[leaguer of one]

Tallis was infuriating, plot armored, and seemingly developer favored or something, but gods she is awful

But not a Mary sue. Really, she one of the only characters the devs made that all of the companions vocally disagreed with her beliefs. Plot armor doesn't really matter.

[In Exile]

But not a Mary sue. Really, she one of the only characters the devs made that all of the companions vocally disagreed with her beliefs. Plot armor doesn't really matter.

 

Plot armour really matters when we're talking about it meaning she gets to run away with a list of qunari spies. For anyone anti-qunari, that's pretty hardcore railroading. 

[leaguer of one]

Calling me out on not knowing what a Mary Sue is despite not knowing yourself? Not exactly disproving the hypocrite assertion are you? In all honesty from what I have seen I am probably one of the only few on these forums who actually understands the term.

Not really, you just questioning the chances of the wardens success rate with events on his/her adventure while not taking note that every game character is like that. Added your forgetting that they are a rpg character with pro's and con's are player controlled and how much the actions of the warden can change.

[leaguer of one]

Plot armour really matters when we're talking about it meaning she gets to run away with a list of qunari spies. For anyone anti-qunari, that's pretty hardcore railroading. 

The qunari rogue/ninja plans for a way to get away from Hawk who is well known for his lethality? Parrish the thought.

Next you're going to tell me Kai Lang has plot armor because plans an escape route by shooting  out the pillars in the temple to break the foundation Shepard is standing on to get to his goal.

[Maiden Crowe]

Not really, you just questioning the chances of the wardens success rate with events on his/her adventure while not taking note that every game character is like that. Added your forgetting that they are a rpg character with pro's and con's are player controlled and how much the actions of the warden can change.

 

You obviously have not been paying attention have you?

[Knightstar2001]

A Mary Sue/Mary Stu is a Character that is able to fix almost everything and that has stuff pretty much always goes their way. They are traditionally done in Fanfiction as the Author showing how their character would have been able to fix or help the other characters with all the trouble they had in the story.

I don't belive that the Inquisitor is a Mary Sue/Stu as they will have problems and they will not be able to overcome them easily or without some sacrifice. There is also the possiblity that they will not be able to save some people.

[Spectre Impersonator]

So if I win the game do I automatically become a Mary Sue? I guess Mario was a huge Mary Sue when he jumped on Bowser's head.

[leaguer of one]

You obviously have not been paying attention have you?

I can quote everything you've been going on about the slim chances the warden had with the tower and with everything dealing with the dwarves.

Added, how you stated the warden suddenly became head of the wardens "just because" while ignoring the fact that 2 wardens are left and the more senior warden dumped the job on you.

[Maiden Crowe]

I can quote everything you've been going on about the slim chances the warden had with the tower and with everything dealing with the dwarves.

Added, how you stated the warden suddenly became head of the wardens "just because" while ignoring the fact that 2 wardens are left and the more senior warden dumped the job on you.

 

Quoting does not mean understanding, also I don't believe I have even mentioned the dwarves in this thread (though the person who did bring it up had an excellent point, only a Mary Sue could enter another society as an outsider and select their King for them), I don't know what thread you have been reading but it is obvious you haven't been paying attention to this one.

[CronoDragoon]

That's not quite correct: Sues can have nominal flaws, but they tend to be cast in a sympathetic way intended to make people view the Sue in a better rather than worse light. The tragic past and loneliness was/is a common one, as the nominal flaw 'social outcast/loneliness' can be used to justify other characters turning the Sue into their priority. Even weakness can be used to justify being the center of attention and focus- sort of a reverse power fantasy.

 

This is pretty much how I identify them - excessive positives masquerading as "character flaws." Oh, she just cares about others too much! Oh, she works too hard! She's accomplished so much but how can that be when her parents beat her?! Or the writers misidentifying handicaps as flaws.

 

What a Mary Sue *is* can be a bit amorphous, but there's a good bet for identifying who *isn't* a Mary Sue: do they have a trait that is identified as negative by other characters and/or the audience? such as jealousy, greed, apathy? Probably not a Mary Sue then.

 

So whether or not a PC is a Mary Sue will sort of depend on how the character plays them, especially in a BW game where most party members tend to favor noble idealism, whether overtly (Aveline) or subtly (Isabela).

[wolfhowwl]

She could also Jedi Mind trick you into giving her the list. 

 

I guess I was just overcome with sadness at the thought of all those spies of a hostile foreign power getting killed. It's not like their leader just trashed my city and vowed to return or anything.

[leaguer of one]

Quoting does not mean understanding, also I don't believe I have even mentioned the dwarves in this thread (though the person who did bring it up had an excellent point, only a Mary Sue could enter another society as an outsider and select their King for them), I don't know what thread you have been reading but it is obvious you haven't been paying attention to this one.

My point is that you  out side of pointing out that the Cousland Warden started out too perfect you have not really been giving a proper term for what a Mary sue is yourself.

In page 2 to 4 we have people who really point out it's meaning. While you over time  just list the things the warden was able to do like him/her to be able to do. As  I said before, if we are really going to say that video game characters that are able to to what other can't do are mary sues then every MC would be a mary sue.

[leaguer of one]

I guess I was just overcome with sadness at the thought of all those spies of a hostile foreign power getting killed. It's not like their leader just trashed my city and vowed to return or anything.

You're forgetting about the spies families.

[Maiden Crowe]

My point is that you  out side of pointing out that the Cousland Warden started out too perfect you have not really been giving a proper term for what a Mary sue is yourself.

In page 2 to 4 we have people who really point out it's meaning. While you over time  just list the things the warden was able to do like him/her to be able to do. As  I said before, if we are really going to say that video game characters that are able to to what other can't do are mary sues then every MC would be a mary sue.

 

Why would I need to give a definition when people have already provided one? The term itself wasn't so much up for debate but rather how the character fits the terms and I provided clear examples of how the Dragon Age characters fit the definition perfectly.

 

While it is true that many video game protagonists exhibit Sueish traits (some more so than others) it is still no excuse and like it or not Bioware's most recent protagonists are among the worst offenders.

 

 

Just because you are uncomfortable calling the Warden a Mary Sue doesn't make it any less true.

[Zu Long]

My own personal list of Mary Sue characters is rather shorter than most in this topic, but that's because for me a true Mary Sue has only one criteria-

 

A Sue is a character whose problems are solved without struggle. A true Sue does not have to strive for anything. She does not work for her power, it does not come with a cost, and the problems which confront her never tax her in solving them. Sues are a function of poor writing and a misunderstanding of the purpose of the story; the idea that the intrigue of the hero or heroine comes from accomplishing a given task, rather than the truth, which is that it is the drama of the hero's STRUGGLE to achieve a goal which makes a story interesting. Whether or not the hero or heroine actually achieves the goal depends on the effect the author wants the story to have, but the struggle is where the drama is.

 

The writer of a Sue does not realize this, and so writes a story devoid of anything interest or appeal because a problem can hardly even be presented before the Sue has already solved it.

 

So, as I said earlier, very few, if any characters listed in this topic, Bioware or otherwise, would qualify under that definition.

[leaguer of one]

Why would I need to give a definition when people have already provided one? The term itself wasn't so much up for debate but rather how the character fits the terms and I provided clear examples of how the Dragon Age characters fit the definition perfectly.

 

While it is true that many video game protagonists exhibit Sueish traits (some more so than others) it is still no excuse and like it or not Bioware's most recent protagonists are among the worst offenders.

 

 

Just because you are uncomfortable calling the Warden a Mary Sue doesn't make it any less true.

With the point on why you need to give a definition, many people who have given one definition lies contrary to what you feel is a mary sue. How can you say the mc falls into the definition for one when a) What you think is a mary sue is never state and what ever stated definition is not along your line of it's definition?

 

And for video game mc's, heck any fantasy and scifi main character it's impossible with out making them with out any form of favor. I never seen a mc with out any form of luck on their side or a quality that get them through events.

If that's all that need to be a mary sue then clearly what ever term you are using for one is too broad.

 

Added, what the characters traits, successes, and flaws is up to the player with bw mc's.

[Maiden Crowe]

With the point on why you need to give a definition, many people who have given one definition lies contrary to what you feel is a mary sue. How can you say the mc falls into the definition for one when a) What you think is a mary sue is never state and what ever stated definition is not along your line of it's definition?

 

Perhaps you should point out these contradictions as I have no idea what points and definitions you are referring to, personally I wouldn't be surprised if this is just a lack of understanding on your part.

 

And for video game mc's, heck any fantasy and scifi main character it's impossible with out making them with out any form of favor. I never seen a mc with out any form of luck on their side or a quality that get them through events.

If that's all that need to be a mary sue then clearly what ever term you are using for one is too broad.

 

Added, what the characters traits, successes, and flaws is up to the player with bw mc's.

 

Luck has little to do with a Mary Sues success, the Dwarves did not leave it to chance to find a random outsider to select their King for them, the Warden was not selected to join the Wardens out of Luck, The Warden is not able to convince characters to do things that are completely against their nature through the power of luck.

 

As for character flaws unless they are acknowledged by the characters around them they don't really count, I mean you can make your character extremely ugly through the character creator and they will still be considered the most beautiful person alive with NPCs still lining up around the corner to get in their pants, and while you can try to make your character a coward the game simply won't allow you to portray this trait, even if you abandon Redcliffe to its fate and kill Eamon's son Eamon will forgive your character and acknowledge that your character was only doing what needed to be done as no decision the protagonist makes can ever be considered wrong.

[leaguer of one]

Perhaps you should point out these contradictions as I have no idea what points and definitions you are referring to, personally I wouldn't be surprised if this is just a lack of understanding on your part.

 

 

 

Luck has little to do with a Mary Sues success, the Dwarves did not leave it to chance to find a random outsider to select their King for them, the Warden was not selected to join the Wardens out of Luck, The Warden is not able to convince characters to do things that are completely against their nature through the power of luck.

 

As for character flaws unless they are acknowledged by the characters around them they don't really count, I mean you can make your character extremely ugly through the character creator and they will still be considered the most beautiful person alive with NPCs still lining up around the corner to get in their pants.

1. Pages 2-6. The post above and below.

 

 

2.But luck was part of having Duncan be at the right place and time to save you from your fate and offer you to the wardens.(Really, when one out of the 6 possible mc is picked the other 5 die.) Luck was there when the witch of the wilds save your treaties that allowed you entry into the dwarven kingdom. Luck was there when Flemeth saved you. And the only reason why the dwarves had the warden had the fate of the king on then is because their Paragon stated,too. They are that much stuck in tradition.

 

And that last part is an example of charm.

 

3. Oh they count. Just use blood magic to solve some of the events or have any of the  more ruthless characters around when your doing benevolent choices.

Heck, you can be a cheap swindler and Sten can call you out of it.

[thepimpto]

I'm confused are you simply calling them Mary-Sue/Gary-Stus because they are of "The Chosen One" archetype. Is your argument that tropes are involved therefore the character is a Mary-Sue? That would make every character ever essentially a Mary-Sue. 

 

Also as for DA2. It is a framed narrative. Varric is telling Hawke's story. Hawke should be a Mary-Sue, given Varric's liberal use of embellishment. 

[Maiden Crowe]

1. Pages 2-6. The post above and below.

 

 

2.But luck was part of having Duncan be at the right place and time to save you from your fate and offer you to the wardens.(Really, when one out of the 6 possible mc is picked the other 5 die.) Luck was there when the witch of the wilds save your treaties that allowed you entry into the dwarven kingdom. Luck was there when Flemeth saved you. And the only reason why the dwarves had the warden had the fate of the king on then is because their Paragon stated,too. They are that much stuck in tradition.

 

And that last part is an example of charm.

 

3. Oh they count. Just use blood magic to solve some of the events or have any of the  more ruthless characters around when your doing benevolent choices.

Heck, you can be a cheap swindler and Sten can call you out of it.

 

1. Still have no idea what you are talking about, you are going to have to do better than mere page references

 

2. Luck has little to do with it, that doesn't mean it doesn't have its role to play.

 

3. How are these flaws of the Warden? Did you not read the posts about positive traits being disguised as flaws being common among Mary Sues?

[leaguer of one]

1. Still have no idea what you are talking about, you are going to have to do better than mere page references

 

2. Luck has little to do with it, that doesn't mean it doesn't have its role to play.

 

3. How are these flaws of the Warden? Did you not read the posts about positive traits being disguised as flaws being common among Mary Sues?

1.drake heath, on 27 Apr 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

A Mary Sue is someone in a story who is special and always right for no real reason other than the story says so.

 

That's the major part, because if say, a character is a literal god and can do anything, they wouldn't be a Mary Sue because within the context of their character it makes sense they'd be super special and omniscient.

 

You can tell if a character is a Mary Sue by asking why they're so special and why they're always right.

 

If the answer is anything beyond because the story says so than they might not be a Mary Sue*.

 

 

*But this doesn't mean they still can't be a badly written or contrived character.

 

 

 

I'm not sure the Warden's popularity has anything to do with possible Mary Sueness, which is a fine debate. I think the Warden's popularity might be simply because s/he was the protag of the better of two games, of course the latter is also a fine debate.

In the spirit of the convo however, let's look more at the character of the Warden. While always winning in the end, the Warden can go in many directions along the way that it's hard to attribute Mary Sueness to that character. Especially so if your big criteria for Mary Sueness is not being flawed /or having a happy ending.

The Warden does or can;

(off the top of my head)

Destroy the Circle
Ignore the plight of Redcliffe
Murder a companion
Betray a companion
Cheat on lovers
Install one of two corrupt rulers for the Dwarves
Install themselves over a rightful heir
Marry into the succession line
Continue the enslavement of souls into Golems
Be a blood Mage
Perform blood magic
Participate in a blood magic ritual(s)
Make deals with Darkspawn

It goes on and on.

Now breathe a second, because those aren't examples of being evil for evils sake, necessarily. The game is written with a tremendous amount of happenstance forcing decisions between rocks and hard places, also often with those moral quandaries having unintended results.

In addition many of the effects of the Wardens decisions aren't apparent immediately or even within the plot, many choices could and do have ramifications much later... which could make judging the Warden as Mary Sue based on flawlessness both shortsighted and unfair.

In the future of Thedas, granted the history books should show the blight was stopped, the Warden could be seen as a villain not a hero... And that could happen even if you played as "good" as you could.

The Warden is closer to The Champion than many, I imagine, would like to admit.

 

 

I could go on.

2.Dude, we had to deal with a ritual that had a 50-50 chance to kill us and 2 people died from it just before we took our turn. 

3.Because it's not just positive traits. And Naivete is a negative trait. This issue is not that the warden is too good and kind.

[Knightstar2001]

Okay, can some one explain to me how the Warden,Shepard and Hawke are Considered to be a Mary Sue/Stu character? None of them had a easy time with their probelms or had everything just go their way. They had to work for their sucesses and even then they had to sacrifice something. A mary sue would have been having no trouble and people falling at thier feet in admiration.