917 réponses à ce sujet

[Nohvarr]

I think Elthina could have done more tbh

 

She wanted them to work the issues out between themselves, she mistakenly believed that Meredith and Orsino could find a peaceful path through this conflict. She was unaware that Red Lyrium was making Meredith less sane than she used to be. Remember, Meredith actually rejected a proposal by Alrik to make all mages Tranquil, that implies that at one point the Knight-Commander was a reasonable authority figure.

 

I am amazed at the number of people that try to justify Anders actions by villifying the Grand Cleric espeically when Anders confession makes it clear he killed her because she could and had been a brake on Meredith. As long as the Grand Cleric was around some form of peace/compromise could be reached, he knew that and thus killed her to ensure that no peace would be found.

[RynJ]

She wanted them to work the issues out between themselves, she mistakenly believed that Meredith and Orsino could find a peaceful path through this conflict. She was unaware that Red Lyrium was making Meredith less sane than she used to be. Remember, Meredith actually rejected a proposal by Alrik to make all mages Tranquil, that implies that at one point the Knight-Commander was a reasonable authority figure.

 

I am amazed at the number of people that try to justify Anders actions by villifying the Grand Cleric espeically when Anders confession makes it clear he killed her because she could and had been a brake on Meredith. As long as the Grand Cleric was around some form of peace/compromise could be reached, he knew that and thus killed her to ensure that no peace would be found.

 

I think the point is some people don't think her loss was all that tragic, not that the reason Anders killed her was because she was so bad. Or that she had it coming, in other words, and whether that's true or false depends on point of view. They don't regard Elthina as innocent.

 

And honestly, there was no way she couldn't have known that Meredith was losing it. Everybody knew. Elthina didn't strike me as a fool and that's what made her inaction all the worse, considering what was being done to mages in the Gallows.

[Lord Raijin]

She wanted them to work the issues out between themselves, she mistakenly believed that Meredith and Orsino could find a peaceful path through this conflict. She was unaware that Red Lyrium was making Meredith less sane than she used to be. Remember, Meredith actually rejected a proposal by Alrik to make all mages Tranquil, that implies that at one point the Knight-Commander was a reasonable authority figure.

 

I am amazed at the number of people that try to justify Anders actions by villifying the Grand Cleric espeically when Anders confession makes it clear he killed her because she could and had been a brake on Meredith. As long as the Grand Cleric was around some form of peace/compromise could be reached, he knew that and thus killed her to ensure that no peace would be found.

 

Meredith was the gasoline and Orsino was the fire. It was only time before the gas and the fire meet up and create total destruction. Elthina could've done something about it, but she did nothing. She did not treat the situation seriously, as she should of done. In fact she treated Orsino and Meredith more like children rather than a business acquaintances.

 

I tend to justify to what Anders did because Elthina was a monstrous criminal disgusted in a what appears to be an innocent old woman's body. The fact that she did not had Sister/Mother Petrice immediately executed for killing the Viscounts son and caused the Qunari to declare war against the people of Kirkwall that resulted in the deaths of many only tells me that the Chantry takes care of each other behind closed doors. If you side with Petrice the only punishment she received was a demotion of her title; from mother to sister.

 

After presenting evidence of Ser Alriks crimes of illegally making mages tranquil to Elthina she showed more sympathy for her criminal templar rather than to the fallen victims of Alriks. She then called you a murderer for giving Alrik some rough justice.

 

Anders wouldn't had blown the Chantry up if Elthina had better communication with the mages that was fair.

[RynJ]

Meredith was the gasoline and Orsino was the fire. It was only time before the gas and the fire meet up and create total destruction. Elthina could've done something about it, but she did nothing. She did not treat the situation seriously, as she should of done. In fact she treated Orsino and Meredith more like children rather than a business acquaintances.

 

I tend to justify to what Anders did because Elthina was a monstrous criminal disgusted in a what appears to be an innocent old woman's body. The fact that she did not had Sister/Mother Petrice immediately executed for killing the Viscounts son and caused the Qunari to declare war against the people of Kirkwall that resulted in the deaths of many only tells me that the Chantry takes care of each other behind closed doors. If you side with Petrice the only punishment she received was a demotion of her title; from mother to sister.

 

After presenting evidence of Ser Alriks crimes of illegally making mages tranquil to Elthina she showed more sympathy for her criminal templar rather than to the fallen victims of Alriks. She then called you a murderer for giving Alrik some rough justice.

 

Anders wouldn't had blown the Chantry up if Elthina had better communication with the mages that was fair.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say she was completely monstrous but I see your points. To me, some people are too caught up in trying to justify everything Anders does because they like him while people who hate him will harp on it constantly and try to act like there was no sound reasoning at all for doing what he did. The guy didn't just fly off the handle at the drop of a hat for no reason. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, innocence is subjective, but terrorism is never okay stop trying to justify what he did, etc. The whole argument has gone round and round so many times and frankly that wasn't really what the original thread was about. The thread was just you saying that you'd pay to see Anders return and the typical hate flying in response peppered with some arguments.

 

I'm kind of surprised this thread wasn't locked a while ago, actually. 

[Cobra's_back]

I wouldn't go so far as to say she was completely monstrous but I see your points. To me, some people are too caught up in trying to justify everything Anders does because they like him while people who hate him will harp on it constantly and try to act like there was no sound reasoning at all for doing what he did. The guy didn't just fly off the handle at the drop of a hat for no reason. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, innocence is subjective, but terrorism is never okay stop trying to justify what he did, etc. The whole argument has gone round and round so many times and frankly that wasn't really what the original thread was about. The thread was just you saying that you'd pay to see Anders return and the typical hate flying in response peppered with some arguments.

 

I'm kind of surprised this thread wasn't locked a while ago, actually. 

 

I don't think they really hate him. He is not real. They disagree with an act of terrorism. You stated perfectly: " One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, innocence is subjective, but terrorism is never okay stop trying to justify what he did, etc."

 

It is not about Anders. It is about Terrorism. If Anders took the fight to the Templars and freed the mages no one would care. In other-words if Anders/Hawk and company killed the Templar in battle no one would have issue with what he did.

 

Thank you for posting it.

[Wolfen09]

anders should take blame for the final straw, elthina takes blame for letting it get to that point...  she didnt want to go after one party in the matter to make it seem like she was taking sides...  then put both idiots out of power and start over without meredith and orsino...  this would have at least put off bloodshed for a few more years, yet she didnt do anything

[MisterJB]

But what exactly were they doing to help Mages in need?

Well, for one, they were not assassinating the one person standibng between Meredith and the Right of Annulment.

From my perspective, Ander didn't so much help the mages as he indirectly murdered the lot of them.

[Cobra's_back]

Well, for one, they were not assassinating the one person standibng between Meredith and the Right of Annulment.

From my perspective, Ander didn't so much help the mages as he indirectly murdered the lot of them.

 

True. He also indirectly made other Circle Mage's life hell because they crack down on them after Kirkwall. 

[Wolfen09]

which was something he was fighting to prevent, so doing that seemed really out of place to many people... we would have been fine with him if they would have slightly changed his personality, but they went way overboard and even contradicted their new version of him in act 3, he just gives me a headache and its better to be done with him

[Tranter88]

I'd pay to have old Anders back, wise cracking, girl chasing, fun to be around Anders.

 

If it was whiny Anders, with his whiney elven friends and whiney church archers, I'd want them to pay me.

 

If you haven't guessed by now I play DA2 with Aveline, Varric and Isabela....I hate all the whiney emo characters.

 

Bring back Oghren...Oghren and Varric in a group, thats something I'd pay $100 for (what is that about £3?)

[TheSwordofDawn]

I doubt he'll be a companion. In most playthroughs it seems as though he was dealt with the knife, so I doubt he would make it as a companion in any form. If he lived in playthroughs then I can see him having a cameo.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I'd pay to have old Anders back, wise cracking, girl chasing, fun to be around Anders.
 
If it was whiny Anders, with his whiney elven friends and whiney church archers, I'd want them to pay me.
 
If you haven't guessed by now I play DA2 with Aveline, Varric and Isabela....I hate all the whiney emo characters.
 
Bring back Oghren...Oghren and Varric in a group, thats something I'd pay $100 for (what is that about £3?)

If Oghren came back i hope it would be optional, he was a incredibly annoying character & it was frustrating that the only Origins companion that was also a companion in Awakening happened to be him.

[RynJ]

Well, for one, they were not assassinating the one person standibng between Meredith and the Right of Annulment.

From my perspective, Ander didn't so much help the mages as he indirectly murdered the lot of them.

 

It's not really that simple. He forced a war which could conceivably end in mages' favor as far as we know. If it does, then he would have succeeded in his mission. He was right in that nothing was changing with "compromise", since that compromise was basically just maintaining the status quo which made mages miserable. 

 

Plus I'm of a mind that all of this fighting would have eventually happened anyways. Anders ripped off the proverbial band-aid, which I suppose would ensure that the Templars and Chantry couldn't build up and prepare for a slow-growing revolution. I don't like that he blew up the Chantry but the act does make some sense beyond just getting mages murdered.

[Cobra's_back]

It's not really that simple. He forced a war which could conceivably end in mages' favor as far as we know. If it does, then he would have succeeded in his mission. He was right in that nothing was changing with "compromise", since that compromise was basically just maintaining the status quo which made mages miserable. 

 

Plus I'm of a mind that all of this fighting would have eventually happened anyways. Anders ripped off the proverbial band-aid, which I suppose would ensure that the Templars and Chantry couldn't build up and prepare for a slow-growing revolution. I don't like that he blew up the Chantry but the act does make some sense beyond just getting mages murdered.

 

Truly there are others ways to do the same thing. He took a short cut and force everyone into the decision he wanted. The other way would have been to become the leader of all the mages and have them fight back. He didn't have all their support so he took matters into his own hands and force it on them. Not the right way in my opinion. 

[RynJ]

Truly there are others ways to do the same thing. He took a short cut and force everyone into the decision he wanted. The other way would have been to become the leader of all the mages and have them fight back. He didn't have all their support so he took matters into his own hands and force it on them. Not the right way in my opinion. 

 

How long would that have taken? And how would it be possible? He couldn't just walk into circles and tell all the mages to join him. He couldn't be up on the surface doing what he did without getting captured. He tried to work underground and even that fell apart. I guess he could have blown up the Templars but would that have had the same, instantaneous affect?

 

As for some people not wanting it, revolution is always forced on the common-folk. There is never a time when everyone agrees with revolution and yet it happens anyways and people are sometimes grateful for it in the future. It's just the way it goes.

[Tranter88]

Truly there are others ways to do the same thing. He took a short cut and force everyone into the decision he wanted. The other way would have been to become the leader of all the mages and have them fight back. He didn't have all their support so he took matters into his own hands and force it on them. Not the right way in my opinion. 

Saying the war is inevitable so I might as well start it. Pretty sure there is an anniversary for something like that about to happen. Elthina=Arch Duke Ferdinand?

 

Where's that Facebook fake thread about the first and second world wars - Soldiers: So what came out of all this - Hindsight: Erm...Literature.

[Cobra's_back]

How long would that have taken? And how would it be possible? He couldn't just walk into circles and tell all the mages to join him. He couldn't be up on the surface doing what he did without getting captured. He tried to work underground and even that fell apart. I guess he could have blown up the Templars but would that have had the same, instantaneous affect?

 

As for some people not wanting it, revolution is always forced on the common-folk. There is never a time when everyone agrees with revolution and yet it happens anyways and people are sometimes grateful for it in the future. It's just the way it goes.

 

You are right he didn't take the time. If he didn't make it happen underground or at the Circle when he was there, then he took everyone's choice away. I don't support that action. I support someone who gets majority support. It would take longer and it would have to be done one step at a time. For example: push the right for mages to keep their children. Could he get everyone to agree? This would mean he had to stay in the Circle to make this happen.

 

your comment:"As for some people not wanting it, revolution is always forced on the common-folk." 

 

I thought he wanted equal rights. Equal rights doesn't need a revolution. He could be fighting for this without a terrorist act. It seems to me that acts of terrorism are used by the minority to force the majority into an action they do not want.

[RynJ]

You are right he didn't take the time. If he didn't make it happen underground or at the Circle when he was there, then he took everyone's choice away. I don't support that action. I support someone who gets majority support. It would take longer and it would have to be done one step at a time. For example: push the right for mages to keep their children. Could he get everyone to agree? This would mean he had to stay in the Circle to make this happen.

 

your comment:"As for some people not wanting it, revolution is always forced on the common-folk."

 

I thought he wanted equal rights. Equal rights doesn't need a revolution. He could be fighting for this without a terrorist act. It seems to me that acts of terrorism are used by the minority to force the majority into an action they do not want.

 

This isn't exactly a "we want equal pay" revolution. Mages are literally being kept locked away against their will and are horribly oppressed. If I was a mage, I don't think "play nice until your oppressors/jailors decide to actually treat you like a person and give you freedoms that everyone should enjoy. Which, by the way, could take decades or even centuries" would be a very appealing plan. 

[Nohvarr]

I tend to justify to what Anders did because Elthina was a monstrous criminal disgusted in a what appears to be an innocent old woman's body. The fact that she did not had Sister/Mother Petrice immediately executed for killing the Viscounts son and caused the Qunari to declare war against the people of Kirkwall that resulted in the deaths of many only tells me that the Chantry takes care of each other behind closed doors.

 

I hope you are joking because the instant Elthina discovered what Petrice was up to she handed her over to Hawke to stand trial for her crimes. “The Chantry respects the law.” So none of your previous statement fits or really makes any sense. It’s just a way to vilify her to justify Anders actions.

 

 

 

”If you side with Petrice the only punishment she received was a demotion of her title; from mother to sister.”

 

And that’s on your Hawke for siding with Petrice, so in that case Hawke us the monster and Elthina is only guilty of trusting the wrong people.

 

 

 

After presenting evidence of Ser Alriks crimes of illegally making mages tranquil to Elthina she showed more sympathy for her criminal templar rather than to the fallen victims of Alriks. She then called you a murderer for giving Alrik some rough justice.

 

So the fact that an old woman would rather have the law respected and the Templar stand trial for his crime is proof she was evil? I swear it’s like dealing with Meredith again, seeing evil where there is none.

[Nohvarr]

 

...this is the woman who deserved to die? A woman who Sebastian flat out states would've put herself between the Mages and the Templars if a fight had errupted and been torn apart? This is your example of all that is wrong with the Chantry? A woman who chose to stay and tend to her flock, people who looked up to her rather than flee into the night even when given permission? A woman who was wise enough to realize that since people on both sides were happy enough to ignore the teachings of Andraste they'd ignore her words? This is the woman Anders was right to kill?

[MisterJB]

This isn't exactly a "we want equal pay" revolution. Mages are literally being kept locked away against their will and are horribly oppressed. If I was a mage, I don't think "play nice until your oppressors/jailors decide to actually treat you like a person and give you freedoms that everyone should enjoy. Which, by the way, could take decades or even centuries" would be a very appealing plan. 

Mages are being isolated in places like Drakon's former palace (read, luxury) for their good, the good of normal people everywhere and so that the very concept of societies lead by non-mages can exist.

They are hardly being "horribly opressed" and I'd expect sensible mages to understand the threat they represent rather than cling to unrealistic notions of equality at the expense of absolutely everything else.

[Cobra's_back]

This isn't exactly a "we want equal pay" revolution. Mages are literally being kept locked away against their will and are horribly oppressed. If I was a mage, I don't think "play nice until your oppressors/jailors decide to actually treat you like a person and give you freedoms that everyone should enjoy. Which, by the way, could take decades or even centuries" would be a very appealing plan. 

 

Equal Rights is not "just equal pay". It includes the rights to full legal, social, and economic equality. That means no lock and key or prison. Again many have used the correct path and have succeeded over time. 

[Cobra's_back]

Mages are being isolated in places like Drakon's former palace (read, luxury) for their good, the good of normal people everywhere and so that the very concept of societies lead by non-mages can exist.

They are hardly being "horribly opressed" and I'd expect sensible mages to understand the threat they represent rather than cling to unrealistic notions of equality at the expense of absolutely everything else.

 

If he took the correct path, he could have worked to gain full legal, social, and economic equality. That means no lock and key or prison. It all depends on what he was fighting for.  

[Nethalf]

That's right I'd pay 100 dollars for the PC version of DA: Inquisition if Anders returns and becomes a companion Come on Bioware make it happen

You pay, I stab.

Seems fair enough.

[RynJ]

Equal Rights is not "just equal pay". It includes the rights to full legal, social, and economic equality. That means no lock and key or prison. 

 

I meant that it goes beyond wanting just to be equal and that the way you said Anders was only fighting for "equal rights" makes it sound much less intense than the whole thing actually is. It's wanting to free yourself physically from a society that imprisons you. I can see where some people want to do more than just petition for keeping children, etc in a painfully slow process and want to full on fight for their freedom. As a player, if mage freedom could be won peacefully but quickly and your PC could have some involvement, I would have done it but that's clearly not how it was ever going to go down in this game.

 

At any rate, I'm going to stop there. This debate was fun to have the first few times back when the game was newer but it just feels like such old news now and not really what the thread's about.