161 réponses à ce sujet

[Androme]

Excuse me, but I'm given to understand that the PC term is homoschedule.

 

Actually I wasn't refering to that, but you're right, that was one problem aswell.

[Mockingword]

Actually I wasn't refering to that, but you're right, that was one problem aswell.

Truly, playing Dragon Age 2 was like trying to wade through a veritable ocean of screaming queens as they paw at your crotch.

 

I have nightmares to this very day.

[Wulfram]

As I've said elsewhere, if the Maker actually turned out to be a benevolent, if non-interventionist deity it would be a swerve.

 

Well, if he's benevolent then the Chantry is a lie, given what they say he did.

[Lebanese Dude]

Seeing as how BioWare lately seem to have turned into a liberal advocacy organization, I'll be waiting for a review before buying the game this time around. DA:2 had a few moments where BioWare shuved liberal agenda down our throats, subtly mind you, they received some negative feedback about that, we'll see how DA:I turns out.

 

 

Slightly off topic but:

 

People like you are the reason people like me can't live normal lives elsewhere in the world.

Forgive me if I can't sympathize with your discomfort. I'm certain you can find games that embrace asinine values elsewhere.

 

-----

 

 

 

On topic:

 

I actually think religion is very well implemented in DA. It's all vague and mysterious, with hints of parts of it being real.

[Mockingword]

Poor you, your throat must be stuffed full of that meaty liberal agenda. 

The turgid, firm, unyielding liberal agenda.

[Elhanan]

I disagree with the idea that religion is portrayed as false. If that were so, the character of several characters in the game would not be on display, as they held to their beliefs throughout the events of the game.

 

Are there hypocrites? Of course, but there is no greater place to illustrate hypocrisy than in religion.

 

In politics, it is expected, but in religion there is the idea that one should try to obtain some goal; should live and instruct through example. And if that goal is perfection, all will fall short of that mark. Yet due to their belief, falling short does not mean quitting  (though many do), but to carry onward towards that unobtainable ideal; their own impossible dream.

[KainD]

Bioware can do what they want, it's their world. If they want to say that religion is bs, then they do it. 

[AlanC9]

Seeing as how BioWare lately seem to have turned into a liberal advocacy organization, I'll be waiting for a review before buying the game this time around. DA:2 had a few moments where BioWare shuved liberal agenda down our throats, subtly mind you, they received some negative feedback about that, we'll see how DA:I turns out.

In the interest of giving folks enough rope, what are we talking about here? What liberal agenda? Being against insane fanatics?

[calvinien]

In the interest of giving folks enough rope, what are we talking about here? What liberal agenda? Being against insane fanatics?

I assume he means bioware's treatment of gay people like actual people instead of stereotyes (imagine that, a universe dreamed up by a gay dude that treats gay people with sympathy.). Isn't that usually what 'liberal agenda' is code for? Can't say that I see much in the way of Dragon age being used to promote obama care or gun control.

[CronoDragoon]

Since BW has said they'll always be vague about the actual existence of higher powers, does it really matter how they portray organized religion? I'm not religious, but I do think Jesus himself objected to the way religion was practiced in his day. Corruption and wrong-headedness from organized religion has no necessary relationship to the value of spirituality.

[In Exile]

As I've said elsewhere, if the Maker actually turned out to be a benevolent, if non-interventionist deity it would be a swerve.

 

Bioware is inconsistent in writing this (particularly with Elthina in DA2) but the Maker is supposed to be non-interventionist. Leliana's belief that the Maker actively acts in the world is actually completely heretical. But in DA2 that dropped and Elthina started to speak like a Christian expy, which was a shame. 

[The Hierophant]

Speaking about spirituality, i think it's depiction in DA feels empty, lifeless, cardboard or artificial, for lack of a better word atm. I know religion isn't the theme of dragon age, but for some reason the depiction of it's spiritual aspect like demeanor, reverence, rituals, philosophy, ethics, power or discriminatory beliefs in regards to the Chantry amongst the majority of it's faithful just seems lacking in comparison to other games that showcases religion, like FFX. (i despise Toriyama's later writing though) It's seems as if the characters themselves don't believe in what they say and sound like they're unenthused paid actors reading their lines from a teleprompter.

[AlanC9]

Bioware is inconsistent in writing this (particularly with Elthina in DA2) but the Maker is supposed to be non-interventionist. Leliana's belief that the Maker actively acts in the world is actually completely heretical. But in DA2 that dropped and Elthina started to speak like a Christian expy, which was a shame.

Heretical might be a little strong. Such beliefs seem to be fairly common among the laity, even if they're not correct according to Chantry doctrine. Elthina, though....

[Cainhurst Crow]

Speaking about spirituality, i think it's depiction in DA feels empty, lifeless, cardboard or artificial, for lack of a better word atm. I know religion isn't the theme of dragon age, but for some reason the depiction of it's spiritual aspect like demeanor, reverence, rituals, philosophy, ethics, power or discriminatory beliefs in regards to the Chantry amongst the majority of it's faithful just seems lacking in comparison to other games that showcases religion, like FFX. (i despise Toriyama's later writing though) It's seems as if the characters themselves don't believe in what they say and sound like they're unenthused paid actors reading their lines from a teleprompter.

 

We need to have the chantry equvilants to flagellants. Roaming the country side, burning themselves while screaming about repentence through andraste's suffering and putting others to the fire.

[The Hierophant]

We need to have the chantry equvilants to flagellants. Roaming the country side, burning themselves while screaming about repentence through andraste's suffering and putting others to the fire.

This seems like a step up from the chantry faithful sounding like they're bored, hollow or pod people.

[Nightwriter]

Yeah I don't understand this thread premise. Can you be more specific about why you think previous Dragon Age games have failed to portray religion with depth and understanding?

[jtav]

I want things to stay ambiguous, if only because the Chantry is a pretty obvious stand-in for Catholicism, and I'm Catholic. I like how nuanced things are and want them to stay that way.

[Thumb Fu]

From "an outsider looking in" perspective, that is to say, i have no religious beliefs myself but have studied several religions in my life. I think Thedas has some very interesting religions that draw both a parallel and are analogues of religions existing in our world today. The game manages to draw out both the good things about religion and the bad, not one religion is presented as being false or inherently evil, although from the point of the Chantry the Qunari are heathens (which they would obviously would believe it goes against all of their beliefs) and there are also the different types of believers within the faiths of Thedas represented, the one that are both zealous and devout, and then there are the passive believers who don't actively practice, and everything in between.

 

I can see things happening within the world during the Dragon Age, the Mage Templar War for example is very much like witchcraft trials of our own history, even the Exalted Marches are very representative of the early Crusades. You don't have to look very far in our own history to see where these themes come from, i for one find it very interesting, and i like to see how clever the writers can be to draw from our own history and tell the tales in a fantasy setting.

 

Plus people tend to write what they know, nothing wrong with that.

[bEVEsthda]

I can see this storyline looming large in Dragon Age 3 that it practically stinks. Too many "Fantasy Worlds" (looking at you, Game of Throne) use this as a basis for the friction or stranglehold that a particular faith may have in that world. I would like to see the DA writers to actually handle the faith of Thedas with depth and understanding, not use it as a political statement of religions in general.

 

 

"with depth and understanding" ?

How do you vision this?

 

I'll try to explain my position: I'm VERY UNCOMFORTABLE  with when there is tiptoe'ing and ooh'ing and aaah'ing around religions and peoples eyes are averted and mouths are closed. Religions shouldn't escape criticism or scrutiny just because they're religions. I'm also very uncomfortable with religions being depicted in an idealized manner, just because they're religions.

 

There are great churches that provide spiritual services which are demonstrably beneficial and positive. I'm not against religion.

 

But religions are institutions that are created by men, and led by men. (I do not believe that God is particularly involved. On the contrary, I'd like to believe the deepest pits in the flaming underworld are reserved for some religious leaders.) Religions should stand scrutiny and their "truths" should be allowed to be examined and be criticized.

 

Looking at medieval times, which is what these fantasy stories are somewhat founded on, religions were mostly an instrument of power, which carried with it it's own justification based on some conjured default "truth", which couldn't be questioned or even examined. "If you're not with us, you're not with God. If you're against us, you're against God. And need to die as painfully as possible." 

Of course religions had other functions as well. But what I've depicted were through long periods their main functionality. And I wonder if things would ever have changed, had not the Black Death changed medieval society so profoundly. The biggest irony was that most of what the religions preached then, was completely opposite to what was in the founders' texts.

 

So I don't really understand what is wrong with depicting fantasy religions as flawed. Seems both realistic and enlightened.

[In Exile]

Heretical might be a little strong. Such beliefs seem to be fairly common among the laity, even if they're not correct according to Chantry doctrine. Elthina, though....

 

I agree that heretical is a strong word, but definitionally there's no other good way to classify her departure from a pretty key (in DA:O, anyway) tenet of that faith. What examples are you thinking about though, re: the laity? 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Heretical might be a little strong. Such beliefs seem to be fairly common among the laity, even if they're not correct according to Chantry doctrine. Elthina, though....

I disagree.  Doctrine says the Maker doesn't intervene.  Leliana's claims that the Maker does intervene is thus heresy.

 

That the laity are often heretics doesn't change the doctrine.

[BurstAngel75]

What I mean by my original post is to not cope out when it comes to writing about faith. It has been a trend to make the major faith institutions of any created world the bad guy by default. Either by lying to the public for thousands of years or making them so stupid that they are the cause of the main conflict. At first it was interesting, but the constant repeat of the theme really makes me wonder if writers don't have anything better to write about faith and religion. What I'm hoping out of DA3 is something new. Like, WOW! the Maker is GOOD or The Chantry did what they could between a bad situation and a worse one.

 

The writers so far had been good at trying to portray all 3 sides of Thedas. The Chantry, Templars, and Mages have both been wrong and right about each other. What I'm interested in is how the writers will resolve the conflict? The Inquisitor stands in the middle of the 3 groups. Will he be forced to choose sides or will there be a different option? One that will change Thedas forever? What I'm hoping for is that the writers don't bore me and give me the same tried and true, Maker = Wrong; Man = Right.

[Stelae]

 

 

The writers so far had been good at trying to portray all 3 sides of Thedas. The Chantry, Templars, and Mages have both been wrong and right about each other. What I'm interested in is how the writers will resolve the conflict? The Inquisitor stands in the middle of the 3 groups. Will he be forced to choose sides or will there be a different option? One that will change Thedas forever? What I'm hoping for is that the writers don't bore me and give me the same tried and true, Maker = Wrong; Man = Right.

It seems to me that you are conflating the Maker, and belief in him and Andraste, with the institutions that have grown up in response to beliefs about them. 

 

The Chantry, Templars and Mages are fallible institutions which allow for a very wide set of beliefs and practices, and reflect the times they are in more than they reflect a set of absolute divine truths.  They are not perfect.  They may have outlived their time, and be ossifying and becoming inappropriate to the situations they find themselves in.  There are good and bad people, and good and bad actions, in all of them, and what you think of the actions reflects on the institution, not on the Maker in whose name these things are rightly or wrongly done. 

 

Let's suppose that the Divine comes out with a statement saying that the Rite of Tranquility is just and necessary.  Let's suppose I think that lobotomising people because you don't like what they might do with their power is cruel and unfair.  I judge the Templars and Chantry, then, as wicked institutions which oppresses a group of people simply for being born a certain way, and denies them free will.  Nothing to do with the Maker, or individual Andrastians, who might be as opposed to the practice as I am.  There are good and bad Templars, and good and bad priests. Someone else might say that the Divine is making a tough but just choice, keeping Thedas safe, and stopping dangerous apostates falling to darkness and violence.  They judge the Chantry and Templars as a force for good. 

 

Religion in Thedas is complicated; Elthina was a good, kind, well-intentioned devout women whose inaction caused disaster.  Leliana is a devout heretic who is not above shivving someone in the name of the Maker.  Andraste is Joan of Arc with the serial numbers rubbed off.  I don't think it has ever -- or will ever -- come down to religion=bad, man=good because almost everyone in Thedas has some degree of belief.  But the institutions are fragile, and the people in them more so.