161 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

I agree that heretical is a strong word, but definitionally there's no other good way to classify her departure from a pretty key (in DA:O, anyway) tenet of that faith.

Happens all the time in the real world, too. There's an almost hilarious divergence between Catholic doctrine and "what is actually taught in Catholic schools". But it seems a little over the top to accuse thousands and thousands of Catholic priests and nuns of committing heresy even though that is, technically, exactly what they are doing.

[dutch_gamer]

I would like to see some examples in which world religion is automatically evil. Even in the example given, Game of Thrones, none of the religions are painted as being evil. Some of us may hate certain practices but that doesn't make a religion the clear bad guy. Efen in the books I have a feeling the "white walkers" may end up being another shade of grey, if the happen to have something with weirwoods.

[Boisterous Bob]

I want things to stay ambiguous, if only because the Chantry is a pretty obvious stand-in for Catholicism, and I'm Catholic. I like how nuanced things are and want them to stay that way.

Not to put you on the spot, but as a fellow Catholic  , I wonder what you think of the parallel.

I find it super frustrating, because I've tried multiple times to play a Chantry-devout character, but I never can, because it's...er, kinda poorly constructed. Like, who would want to worship the Maker when the Chantry itself teaches that he basically screwed up on his first try with creation and then didn't really care for his second?

Also, the dwarves. The Chantry says that the Maker didn't create them...meaning that there's some other power at work, like the Stone? At least as powerful as the Maker, if it can create a race, too? I just...who'd give the Maker a second glance if he's so mediocre? Usually monotheistic religions profess an omnipotent god, right?

 

Happens all the time in the real world, too. There's an almost hilarious divergence between Catholic doctrine and "what is actually taught in Catholic schools". But it seems a little over the top to accuse thousands and thousands of Catholic priests and nuns of committing heresy even though that is, technically, exactly what they are doing.

The number of people who have literally no idea what their own religion's basic teachings are is....amazing, yes. 

[AlanC9]

I agree that heretical is a strong word, but definitionally there's no other good way to classify her departure from a pretty key (in DA:O, anyway) tenet of that faith. What examples are you thinking about though, re: the laity? 

 

The knights defending Redcliffe are the most blatant example. Also, I believe several overheard prayers are requests for assistance.

 

I'm only against using "heresy" here because it seems like the Chantry doesn't react to this sort of thing the way RW religions react to beliefs which they call "heresy." Though we don't have very many data points.

[FlamenDialis]

without having access to the religious texts or proclamations of canon for the Chantry, i find it difficult to determine what is, or is not, heresy... you know, for an imaginary religion. i have no idea how a person could feel confident regarding questions of heresy given how little we know of the religion in question.

 

also, while bioware does tend to get a bit preachy regarding social issues, their handling of the Chantry doesn't feel like a serious assault on  a religion or Religion. the Chantry is presented as a vast institution with considerable secular influence. any such organization, no matter how benign their espoused goals might be, will have a fair number indifferent bureaucrats and outright villains holding positions of power. bioware admittedly pulled back a bit from their early announced intentions of making dragon age "darker" than their previous titles, but clearly they wanted to explore moral ambiguity with their new franchise. consider the alternative-- if the Chantry had received an obvious "kid glove" treatment from bioware, no doubt more than a handful of people would have cried "foul." 

 

that being said, my greatest disappointment concerning the religion of dragon age is how the andraste's ashes quest was handled in da:o. a monotheistic religion with a remote God offers the rather unique opportunity to explore questions of Faith in a fantasy rpg. unfortunately, da:o gave us religious Miracles. what a waste. 

 

as for using the present topic on a message board for a crpg as an opportunity to vilify the catholic church, i believe i will have to take a pass on that option as it strikes me not only as inappropriate, but utterly ridiculous.

[9TailsFox]

But religion is a lie just tool to control slaves/mages. Be obedient slave and you will be reworded after death with eternal paradise.

[FlamenDialis]

lord knows i don't want to be reworded after death. a couple years ago i wrote a paper regarding first amendment free speech and the public forum doctrine. the paper was published and every time somebody rewords it, i get cheesed off to a ridiculous degree. rewording is terrible and i don't wish it upon even my worst enemies.

[9TailsFox]

without having access to the religious texts or proclamations of canon for the Chantry, i find it difficult to determine what is, or is not, heresy... you know, for an imaginary religion. i have no idea how a person could feel confident regarding questions of heresy given how little we know of the religion in question.

 

also, while bioware does tend to get a bit preachy regarding social issues, their handling of the Chantry doesn't feel like a serious assault on  a religion or Religion. the Chantry is presented as a vast institution with considerable secular influence. any such organization, no matter how benign their espoused goals might be, will have a fair number indifferent bureaucrats and outright villains holding positions of power. bioware admittedly pulled back a bit from their early announced intentions of making dragon age "darker" than their previous titles, but clearly they wanted to explore moral ambiguity with their new franchise. consider the alternative-- if the Chantry had received an obvious "kid glove" treatment from bioware, no doubt more than a handful of people would have cried "foul." 

 

that being said, my greatest disappointment concerning the religion of dragon age is how the andraste's ashes quest was handled in da:o. a monotheistic religion with a remote God offers the rather unique opportunity to explore questions of Faith in a fantasy rpg. unfortunately, da:o gave us religious Miracles. what a waste. 

 

as for using the present topic on a message board for a crpg as an opportunity to vilify the catholic church, i believe i will have to take a pass on that option as it strikes me not only as inappropriate, but utterly ridiculous.

I do not agree, yes ashes can be depicted as religious, or it simply can be magic, we don't even know if ashes are Andrastes or human at all or why it have magical properties to heal. Wynne technically died but was broth back by spirit this is not miracle in a sense it's fact because we partly understand how spirits work. If we don't understand something we call it magic or god did it, then we find out it becomes fact. So I don't see problem people thinking it is miracle and not getting all details. It's strange for me why everything must be explained, we don't know who or what Flemet is. Bioware better explain it, why? why not leave it mystery.

[FlamenDialis]

"I do not agree, yes ashes can be depicted as religious, or it simply can be magic, we don't even if ashes are Andrastes or human at all or why it have magical properties to heal."

 

assume i create a Grail story that includes the ghosts of the 12 apostles giving first hand accounts of Christ's final days to my protagonist and upon finding the Grail the holiest of relics actually has miraculous healing powers. no doubt you can come up with alternative explanations for the protagonist's visions of the apostles that have a non-divine origin. drugs? sleep deprivation? a shared delusion? similarly, the curative powers of the Grail might be the result of alien intervention, or a cheap light show coupled with the power of suggestion?  sounds sort of silly, no? assuming my hypothetical Grail story is played straight, such a tale has if not an explicit presupposition of a Divinity at work in the world, then a very strong implication of such.

 

"Bioware better explain it, why? why not leave it mystery."

 

you have it backwards. bioware's andraste's ashes quest is what diminished the mystery, not some imagined future explanation. if bio wanted to keep the mystery, there was no reason to add the miracle.

[Meredydd]

I was thinking of Protestantism actually, and all the denominations--and even within a single church there will be people with slightly different thoughts on what things mean.

So it might technically be heresy, in the same sense that burglary and murder are both crimes, one of much greater consequence and punishment.

True. I moved from South Africa to Australia and was very surprised on how different the churches and their views were even though their both Protestant. From studying my religion, I can understand why this is so. The teachings in the Bible (apart from 'set in stone' stuff like the Ten Commandments) don't really cover or take into account today's society and how it functions. Therefore people have to make up their own assumptions, and this leads to differing views, different churches with different teaching, etc, etc. So I guess it could be considered heresy but then again many of the teachings in the Bible were written in a certain way for the people of that time period, not for modern times, so people struggle to stay true to the EXACT teachings of the Bible since some of them are hard or impractical to apply in modern society. 

[HunterX6]

All praise the maker, may he shine warmth into your life, let his light guide you through the darkness and should we fall brothers and sisters, let us meet each other again at the maker side.

[Ryzaki]

I thought we wanted realism in our fantasy? 

 

I vote for a LEGO movie-style reveal where the Inquisitor travels through the breach and learns that

Spoiler

Thedas is an imaginary place, conjured up in the mind of a child. Skyhold is a box fort, and the Inquisitor and all his friends are action figures in a child's playroom.

 

...You just had to go and remind me of that terrible terrible Star Ocean 3 plot twist.

 

 

I presume you're homosexual? Opposition to normalization of homosexuality isn't ''aisine'', in any way. Anyways, I wasn't even talking about homosexuality earlier, whatever you might think.

 

I'm probably gonna regret asking this but what's non asisine about it?

[CronoDragoon]

Anyways, I wasn't even talking about homosexuality earlier, whatever you might think.

 

So what were you talking about?

[twincast]

Guys, can you do me a favor and not quote him? That defeats the purpose of having him on ignore.

[HunterX6]

There was no word
For heaven or for earth, for sea or sky
All that existed was silence
Then the Voice of the Maker rang out
The first Word
And His Word became all that might be
—Threnodies 5:1–8

[AlanC9]

 

 

I'm probably gonna regret asking this but what's non asisine about it?

 

This should be good. (makes popcorn.)

[The Serge777]

Not to put you on the spot, but as a fellow Catholic  , I wonder what you think of the parallel.

I find it super frustrating, because I've tried multiple times to play a Chantry-devout character, but I never can, because it's...er, kinda poorly constructed. Like, who would want to worship the Maker when the Chantry itself teaches that he basically screwed up on his first try with creation and then didn't really care for his second?

Also, the dwarves. The Chantry says that the Maker didn't create them...meaning that there's some other power at work, like the Stone? At least as powerful as the Maker, if it can create a race, too? I just...who'd give the Maker a second glance if he's so mediocre? Usually monotheistic religions profess an omnipotent god, right?

 

The number of people who have literally no idea what their own religion's basic teachings are is....amazing, yes. 

Wait, but didn't the Judeo-Christian god essentially do the same thing, that is create humanity and essentially tempt them to do something that spoiled them, killed most of them afterwards, only to have to send his avatar (for Christians, anyway) as a sacrifice?  And that's not even getting into the angelic parallels with spirits in certain traditions.  And, aside from this the avatar, no ones seen the god in question, in whom worshippers are expected to have faith despite his absence. 

 

(And let me say it is not my intention to offend with this analysis.  I'm speaking from a purely literary perspective, not a religious one.)

 

I think the parallels between the Chantry and Christianity, Catholicism in particular, are quite close. 

 

That having been said, I think the parallels are there but I think that's the point.  The people who follow these institutions' dogmas are really the folks who are being examined here; however, the institutions do have set beliefs that perpetuate many questionable... perspectives and behaviors that may we out of touch with contemporary knowledge.  (And, yes, there are good things as well.) 

 

While I think that the Maker, if it/he/she exists, is something of a dick if the Chantry's view of him is accurate, I think Bioware would be better off either keeping him somewhat nebulous or revealing that he is far more complex than the Chantry's portrayal.  He could be one being, multiple beings, or a cypher.  And let's not forget the complexity of religion in the setting.  We have the Dalish religious system (such as it is) and the dwarves and their Stone.  And we also have the religions that predate the Chantry (and still exist in certain areas not entirely under Chantry rule).  So, again, the Maker could be real but to suggest that the Chantry is right would completely undermine the complexity of an environment in which there are multiple religious (and, in the case of the Qun, philosophical) views.

[HunterX6]

Its gates forever shut. Heaven has been filled with silence, I knew then, And cross'd my heart with shame. -Andraste 1:11

[Boisterous Bob]

Wait, but didn't the Judeo-Christian god essentially do the same thing, that is create humanity and essentially tempt them to do something that spoiled them, killed most of them afterwards, only to have to send his avatar (for Christians, anyway) as a sacrifice? And that's not even getting into the angelic parallels with spirits in certain traditions. And, aside from this the avatar, no ones seen the god in question, in whom worshippers are expected to have faith despite his absence.

(And let me say it is not my intention to offend with this analysis. I'm speaking from a purely literary perspective, not a religious one.)

I think the parallels between the Chantry and Christianity, Catholicism in particular, are quite close.

That having been said, I think the parallels are there but I think that's the point. The people who follow these institutions' dogmas are really the folks who are being examined here; however, the institutions do have set beliefs that perpetuate many questionable... perspectives and behaviors that may we out of touch with contemporary knowledge. (And, yes, there are good things as well.)

While I think that the Maker, if it/he/she exists, is something of a dick if the Chantry's view of him is accurate, I think Bioware would be better off either keeping him somewhat nebulous or revealing that he is far more complex than the Chantry's portrayal. He could be one being, multiple beings, or a cypher. And let's not forget the complexity of religion in the setting. We have the Dalish religious system (such as it is) and the dwarves and their Stone. And we also have the religions that predate the Chantry (and still exist in certain areas not entirely under Chantry rule). So, again, the Maker could be real but to suggest that the Chantry is right would completely undermine the complexity of an environment in which there are multiple religious (and, in the case of the Qun, philosophical) views.

Ugh, I'm replying on mobile, so forgive awkward formatting if that happens.
Something to bear in mind is that, according to Catholic belief (I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak of all Christian sects), Adam and Eve before their sin had access to God in a direct and almost intimate way; they also were not yet tainted by sin. (Modern man has a natural tendency to sin, because his passions easily cloud his reason; A & E were free from this fundamental disorder and therefore had less in the way of justifying acting on their temptation.) Also worth pointing out is that--at least based on Genesis--they weren't naturally tempted , until the devil intervened to mislead them.
As far as I understand, if Jesus had never come along, we could reason that there is a god (and the Israelites could say a bit more due to their unique role), but we could not possibly be expected to have come to the understanding of God and all things religious that we have today. But because Jesus did come along, we can't even conceive of God as distant and impersonal like the Maker.
And yeah, the Maker is a massive jackass. See, people can have all sorts of opinions about Catholic teaching; but we ourselves believe that God is total good and the most perfect, all-powerful, unconditionally-loving creator. But THE CHANTRY ITSELF teaches that the Maker: makes mistakes; abandoned his creation multiple times; is not the creator of all things (I infer that this makes him NOT all-knowing); and only cares for his creation because one mortal begs him to.
These might seem minor distinctions, but their implications are really extensive. I do like BioWare's portrayal of a church made of flawed mortals who do bad as well as good things, but I hate that the basic teaching itself is really crummy and the deity is unworthy of fondness, let alone worship. It also kinda sucks that the two most significant religious peeps are a heretic (Leliana) and Sebastian, who threatens to level a city for the sake of revenge.
As for the "asinine-comments" side convo, yeah let's not get this thread locked, folks.

ETA: I don't mean to say that Leliana or Sebastian suck; I mean that the most prominent/admirable religious characters have major departures from their religion (because their religion sucks, aka there's really no "good" religion in Thedas).

[Travie]

I couldn't be more on the opposite end of opinion in relation to OP. All the 'real' religions on earth have sorted pasts. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism (yes, even Buddhism), and Hindu all were violent and often corrupt at points in their history. 

 

There is nothing wrong with putting something similar to this in a game that in many ways is a reflection of our own real history, and pointing these things out in discussion or putting them in a game shouldn't be shied away from. Doing so would be even more dishonest than setting up a 'strawman' religion to attack, in my opinion. 

[Swagger7]

What I mean by my original post is to not cope out when it comes to writing about faith. It has been a trend to make the major faith institutions of any created world the bad guy by default. Either by lying to the public for thousands of years or making them so stupid that they are the cause of the main conflict. At first it was interesting, but the constant repeat of the theme really makes me wonder if writers don't have anything better to write about faith and religion. What I'm hoping out of DA3 is something new. Like, WOW! the Maker is GOOD or The Chantry did what they could between a bad situation and a worse one.

 

The writers so far had been good at trying to portray all 3 sides of Thedas. The Chantry, Templars, and Mages have both been wrong and right about each other. What I'm interested in is how the writers will resolve the conflict? The Inquisitor stands in the middle of the 3 groups. Will he be forced to choose sides or will there be a different option? One that will change Thedas forever? What I'm hoping for is that the writers don't bore me and give me the same tried and true, Maker = Wrong; Man = Right.

How is that any more cliche than the "God is real and good" business that's been around for the entirety of recorded human history?  It's perfectly fine not to want the story to take a certain turn, but don't accuse something of being cliche when it's just something you happen to dislike, especially when religion being false is far less common throughout all fiction than it being real.

[Swagger7]

I thought we wanted realism in our fantasy? 

 

I vote for a LEGO movie-style reveal where the Inquisitor travels through the breach and learns that

Spoiler

Thedas is an imaginary place, conjured up in the mind of a child. Skyhold is a box fort, and the Inquisitor and all his friends are action figures in a child's playroom.

That'd be one Effed-up kid.....

[Swagger7]

I assume he means bioware's treatment of gay people like actual people instead of stereotyes (imagine that, a universe dreamed up by a gay dude that treats gay people with sympathy.). Isn't that usually what 'liberal agenda' is code for? Can't say that I see much in the way of Dragon age being used to promote obama care or gun control.

You can take my magic when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers....