161 réponses à ce sujet

[HunterX6]

Blessed are they who stand before The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter. Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just. -Benedictions 4:10

[Vilegrim]

I can see this storyline looming large in Dragon Age 3 that it practically stinks. Too many "Fantasy Worlds" (looking at you, Game of Throne) use this as a basis for the friction or stranglehold that a particular faith may have in that world. I would like to see the DA writers to actually handle the faith of Thedas with depth and understanding, not use it as a political statement of religions in general.

 

 

EDIT: NVM that was a RL rant, no need for it here

[Swagger7]

EDIT: NVM that was a RL rant, no need for it here

:Slow clap:

[slimgrin]

I can see this storyline looming large in Dragon Age 3 that it practically stinks. Too many "Fantasy Worlds" (looking at you, Game of Throne) use this as a basis for the friction or stranglehold that a particular faith may have in that world. I would like to see the DA writers to actually handle the faith of Thedas with depth and understanding, not use it as a political statement of religions in general.

It's their prerogative how they want to treat the topic, and if they can make a statement without getting preachy, I say go for it. I liked how it was done in DA:O.

[Cobra's_back]

Bioware has said they will leave the Maker intentionally vague ever since Origins. That at least means that they won't have "The Chantry is a lie" be anything more than an opinion.

 

Smart move on their part. I have no problem with the way they have been handling it. As far as I can see they had positive figures and negative figures in their Chantry. They don't appear to have a hidden agenda which makes their depiction seem more real. 

[Cobra's_back]

It's their prerogative how they want to treat the topic, and if they can make a statement without getting preachy, I say go for it. I liked how it was done in DA:O.

 

I thought they were pretty neutral. 

[Cobra's_back]

lord knows i don't want to be reworded after death. a couple years ago i wrote a paper regarding first amendment free speech and the public forum doctrine. the paper was published and every time somebody rewords it, i get cheesed off to a ridiculous degree. rewording is terrible and i don't wish it upon even my worst enemies.

 

Okay you peaked my interest. What was the overall message? When I think of the first amendment several things come to mind:

 

1. Free Speech

2. State and Church are separate

3. A person is free to belong to a Church or not

 

This has to be the most important amendment in the US Constitution. So I'm very interested in what you said. 

 

I believe BioWare has freedom of speech. Customers can exercise their rights to buy or not buy the product. If BioWare stays neutral it is because they don't want to offend a certain customer base. Hidden agendas tend to cheapen or limit creativity in general. 

[Nyeredzi]

I can see this storyline looming large in Dragon Age 3 that it practically stinks. Too many "Fantasy Worlds" (looking at you, Game of Throne) use this as a basis for the friction or stranglehold that a particular faith may have in that world. I would like to see the DA writers to actually handle the faith of Thedas with depth and understanding, not use it as a political statement of religions in general.

bioware?,,,,, sure buddy

[Cobra's_back]

without having access to the religious texts or proclamations of canon for the Chantry, i find it difficult to determine what is, or is not, heresy... you know, for an imaginary religion. i have no idea how a person could feel confident regarding questions of heresy given how little we know of the religion in question.

 

also, while bioware does tend to get a bit preachy regarding social issues, their handling of the Chantry doesn't feel like a serious assault on  a religion or Religion. the Chantry is presented as a vast institution with considerable secular influence. any such organization, no matter how benign their espoused goals might be, will have a fair number indifferent bureaucrats and outright villains holding positions of power. bioware admittedly pulled back a bit from their early announced intentions of making dragon age "darker" than their previous titles, but clearly they wanted to explore moral ambiguity with their new franchise. consider the alternative-- if the Chantry had received an obvious "kid glove" treatment from bioware, no doubt more than a handful of people would have cried "foul." 

 

that being said, my greatest disappointment concerning the religion of dragon age is how the andraste's ashes quest was handled in da:o. a monotheistic religion with a remote God offers the rather unique opportunity to explore questions of Faith in a fantasy rpg. unfortunately, da:o gave us religious Miracles. what a waste. 

 

as for using the present topic on a message board for a crpg as an opportunity to vilify the catholic church, i believe i will have to take a pass on that option as it strikes me not only as inappropriate, but utterly ridiculous.

 

I found this:

 

Furthermore, the official belief of the Imperial Chantry is that Andraste wasn't, in fact, the Maker's Chosen, but rather "just" an extraordinarily powerful mage. This view, which is considered heretical by the Andrastian Chantry, can also be found in a book called "The Search for the True Prophet".

 

I don't think they did. She could have been a mage and her ashes could have had healing power.

[Cobra's_back]

Since BW has said they'll always be vague about the actual existence of higher powers, does it really matter how they portray organized religion? I'm not religious, but I do think Jesus himself objected to the way religion was practiced in his day. Corruption and wrong-headedness from organized religion has no necessary relationship to the value of spirituality.

 

True. One fact that can't be argued is that humankind in a group setting in general is corrupt. I thought the main message was everyone had to fight their tendencies to be corrupt. It is not just religions. 

[Cobra's_back]

"with depth and understanding" ?

How do you vision this?

 

I'll try to explain my position: I'm VERY UNCOMFORTABLE  with when there is tiptoe'ing and ooh'ing and aaah'ing around religions and peoples eyes are averted and mouths are closed. Religions shouldn't escape criticism or scrutiny just because they're religions. I'm also very uncomfortable with religions being depicted in an idealized manner, just because they're religions.

 

There are great churches that provide spiritual services which are demonstrably beneficial and positive. I'm not against religion.

 

But religions are institutions that are created by men, and led by men. (I do not believe that God is particularly involved. On the contrary, I'd like to believe the deepest pits in the flaming underworld are reserved for some religious leaders.) Religions should stand scrutiny and their "truths" should be allowed to be examined and be criticized.

 

Looking at medieval times, which is what these fantasy stories are somewhat founded on, religions were mostly an instrument of power, which carried with it it's own justification based on some conjured default "truth", which couldn't be questioned or even examined. "If you're not with us, you're not with God. If you're against us, you're against God. And need to die as painfully as possible." 

Of course religions had other functions as well. But what I've depicted were through long periods their main functionality. And I wonder if things would ever have changed, had not the Black Death changed medieval society so profoundly. The biggest irony was that most of what the religions preached then, was completely opposite to what was in the founders' texts.

 

So I don't really understand what is wrong with depicting fantasy religions as flawed. Seems both realistic and enlightened.

 

If you do it is called propaganda. Religion has both positive and negative aspect just like everything else in this world. There is no perfect human, society, government, etc. If you truly paint it as flawed and don't show any positives then it is clear you have an agenda. BioWare has done a nice job showing both sides. I see nothing wrong in what they are doing.

[Cobra's_back]

Not to put you on the spot, but as a fellow Catholic  , I wonder what you think of the parallel.

I find it super frustrating, because I've tried multiple times to play a Chantry-devout character, but I never can, because it's...er, kinda poorly constructed. Like, who would want to worship the Maker when the Chantry itself teaches that he basically screwed up on his first try with creation and then didn't really care for his second?

Also, the dwarves. The Chantry says that the Maker didn't create them...meaning that there's some other power at work, like the Stone? At least as powerful as the Maker, if it can create a race, too? I just...who'd give the Maker a second glance if he's so mediocre? Usually monotheistic religions profess an omnipotent god, right?

 

The number of people who have literally no idea what their own religion's basic teachings are is....amazing, yes. 

 

I don't see this as the Catholic Religion. I really just see this as pure fantasy. 

 

Your comment: Like, who would want to worship the Maker when the Chantry itself teaches that he basically screwed up on his first try with creation and then didn't really care for his second?

 

Could the point be not to focus on the flaws but on the fact that mistakes can be corrected and someone learns from them??? I really don't know. I don't focus much time on the Chantry mainly because it is pure fantasy.

[AlanC9]

I can see this storyline looming large in Dragon Age 3 that it practically stinks. Too many "Fantasy Worlds" (looking at you, Game of Throne) use this as a basis for the friction or stranglehold that a particular faith may have in that world. I would like to see the DA writers to actually handle the faith of Thedas with depth and understanding, not use it as a political statement of religions in general.

Can someone sort out what Game of Thrones has to do with this? Religion doesn't seem to have much power in that world unless it comes with effective magical power. Not an option in DA, Sacred Ashes excepted.

[Cobra's_back]

Can someone sort out what Game of Thrones has to do with this? Religion doesn't seem to have much power in that world unless it comes with effective magical power. Not an option in DA, Sacred Ashes excepted.

 

I found this:

 

Furthermore, the official belief of the Imperial Chantry is that Andraste wasn't, in fact, the Maker's Chosen, but rather "just" an extraordinarily powerful mage. This view, which is considered heretical by the Andrastian Chantry, can also be found in a book called "The Search for the True Prophet".

 

I don't think they did. She could have been a mage and her ashes could have had healing power.

 

The healing powers may not have anything to do with religion.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I found this:

 

Furthermore, the official belief of the Imperial Chantry is that Andraste wasn't, in fact, the Maker's Chosen, but rather "just" an extraordinarily powerful mage. This view, which is considered heretical by the Andrastian Chantry, can also be found in a book called "The Search for the True Prophet".

 

I don't think they did. She could have been a mage and her ashes could have had healing power.

 

I don't think the premise of the search for the True Prophet was the same as the theology of the Imperial Chantry. The Imperial Chantry still believes in the Maker, and that Andraste brought his message to the people of Thedas. If Andraste was just a mage, then why do they believe in the Maker at all?

[naddaya]

 

I don't think they did. She could have been a mage and her ashes could have had healing power.

 

The healing powers may not have anything to do with religion.

 

 

Dis. If you bring Oghren to the sacred ashes quest he comments that there's a crazy amount of lyrium in the temple. He believes that's the reason for the apparitions and the weird **** in the gauntlet.

[Cobra's_back]

I don't think the premise of the search for the True Prophet was the same as the theology of the Imperial Chantry. The Imperial Chantry still believes in the Maker, and that Andraste brought his message to the people of Thedas. If Andraste was just a mage, then why do they believe in the Maker at all?

 

My response was an ans to the following:

 

FlamenDialis, on 30 Apr 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

 

"that being said, my greatest disappointment concerning the religion of dragon age is how the andraste's ashes quest was handled in da:o. a monotheistic religion with a remote God offers the rather unique opportunity to explore questions of Faith in a fantasy rpg. unfortunately, da:o gave us religious Miracles. what a waste. "

 

 

I'm pointing out that BioWare is not really making this about " religious Miracles".

[Shapeshifter777]

[naddaya]

What's cliche is turning it into a "humans are bad, and religion is bad" broad sweeping statement. It's devoid of complexity or intelligent thought.

 

Not bad. Inaccurate and limited. Which is true.

[9TailsFox]

Screw Maker screw old gods.

[naddaya]

Screw Maker screw old gods.

 

I can live with that