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Please no more cheap Religion is a lie storylines, Too Cliche to Stomach


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#101
naddaya

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Religion is inaccurate and limited? I find that claim amusing. But whatev.

 

Whether its foundation is real or not (which I don't believe, but that's not the point) religion is interpreted and shared by men. Men preach it. Men write holy writings for others to follow, in different times, different social situations, different places with different needs. Tales and interpretation are changed by time, and men have no absolute knowledge. Religion only reflects that.

In Thedas, like in the real world, there are several beliefs with common traits. No one can tell which is the "correct" one. So yeah, they're bound to be inaccurate.


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#102
Boisterous Bob

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I don't see this as the Catholic Religion. I really just see this as pure fantasy. 

 

Your comment: Like, who would want to worship the Maker when the Chantry itself teaches that he basically screwed up on his first try with creation and then didn't really care for his second?

 

Could the point be not to focus on the flaws but on the fact that mistakes can be corrected and someone learns from them??? I really don't know. I don't focus much time on the Chantry mainly because it is pure fantasy.

I don't think it's a glaring "ripoff" of Catholicism, but the Andrastian Chantry is a very definite allusion to Christianity, and thus parallels are bound to raise questions about what the writers might be inferring about Christianity. (But at the same time, some inferences are also bound to be drawn that weren't intentional.)

And perhaps you're right about that interpretation. It's hard to analyze the Chantry too thoroughly when we've only heard a handful of verses in the Chant  :D

 

Whether its foundation is real or not (which I don't believe, but that's not the point) religion is interpreted and shared by men. Men preach it. Men write holy writings for others to follow, in different times, different social situations, different places with different needs. Tales and interpretation are changed by time, and men have no absolute knowledge. Religion only reflects that.

In Thedas, like in the real world, there are several beliefs with common traits. No one can tell which is the "correct" one. So yeah, they're bound to be inaccurate.

Religion--hmm, I should probably back up and limit myself to that which I'm most familiar with--Christianity, at any rate, doesn't claim to be perfect. It's an admittedly imperfect institution which aims at something which is perfect. (And, at least in the case of Catholicism and I think Orthodoxy, it also claims to be founded and actively shaped and guided by God, which gives it a unique status and nature among human institutions.) Religion is how imperfect man relates to perfect divine, and so by definition it has to be limited, because of man's own imperfections, as you say.

At the same time, that's not equivalent to saying that the "Truth" or "reality" to which religion points is therefore necessarily inaccurate. I also think that, just because you have multiple faiths which contradict each other, it doesn't mean it's logical to conclude that therefore all of them are inaccurate. Only that they can't all be true.

 

ETA: I keep rereading your post, and I'm still not positive if I'm answering it, or restating it in my own words, or merely talking past it. Heh. :P


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#103
Mockingword

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Religion is inaccurate and limited? I find that claim amusing. But whatev.

Less amusing than the claim that religion is perfectly accurate?


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#104
Cobra's_back

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Less amusing than the claim that religion is perfectly accurate?

 

Who would suggest it is perfectly accurate? 



#105
9TailsFox

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Who would suggest it is perfectly accurate? 

A lot of people who find Andraste. And perching Andraste loves you.


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#106
Cobra's_back

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A lot of people who find Andraste. And perching Andraste loves you.

 

That is different. I don't know her but maybe she did care for her people. It doesn't mean it is perfect.



#107
The Hierophant

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So far i'm glad that the writers didn't let any personal bias bleed over into their work.

On a nearly related note, i'm also glad that the writers didn't go for the "Humanity is evil, barbaric, war loving nature destroyers" vs the "Immaculate, war abstaining, nature loving, oh so advanced, can do no wrong, vegan Elves."
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#108
Mockingword

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When have elves ever abstained from war? if anything, they consistently have a reputation for unrivaled prowess in combat.

 

I don't recall them being vegans in anything I've ever read, either.



#109
naddaya

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That is different. I don't know her but maybe she did care for her people. It doesn't mean it is perfect.


No one was questioning her existence, but the accuracy of what the chant of light passes as history. Inaccurate doesn't mean entirely false. It means not exact. People have a way of twisting facts to fit their feelings and beliefs, even without realizing it, history is made by the victors and the Chantry is as biased and fallible as any other organization.

#110
Cobra's_back

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No one was questioning her existence, but the accuracy of what the chant of light passes as history. Inaccurate doesn't mean entirely false. It means not exact. People have a way of twisting facts to fit their feelings and beliefs, even without realizing it, history is made by the victors and the Chantry is as biased and fallible as any other organization.

 

It is not my belief that it was accurate or perfect. I'm sure that is why the writers give you Leliana and Alistair. They are prime examples of people that believe but don't take every word literally. 



#111
The Hierophant

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When have elves ever abstained from war? if anything, they consistently have a reputation for unrivaled prowess in combat.

Across all fantasy fiction it's not often that elves initiated war against the other races and usually only responds like so in defense from extinction. Usually regarded as a noble cause versus conflicts over resources or politics.

I don't recall them being vegans in anything I've ever read, either.

Sorry, that's from reading too much fantasy, sci fi fan fiction.

My point still stands on my annoyance on the overabundance of 'humanity teh evulz' vs 'immaculate elves' depictions and themes in stories.

#112
naddaya

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It is not my belief that it was accurate or perfect. I'm sure that is why the writers give you Leliana and Alistair. They are prime examples of people that believe but don't take every word literally.


I wasn't disagreeing with you, I just took the chance to ramble about the chantry xD
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#113
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Less amusing than the claim that religion is perfectly accurate?

 

Who here is claiming that religion is perfectly accurate?

 

Let's not lose sight of the discussion.

 

 

Across all fantasy fiction it's not often that elves initiated war against the other races and usually only responds like so in defense from extinction. Usually regarded as a noble cause versus conflicts over resources or politics.

Sorry, that's from reading too much fantasy, sci fi fan fiction.

My point still stands on my annoyance on the overabundance of 'humanity teh evulz' vs 'immaculate elves' depictions and themes in stories.

 

And it's not like DA is NOT guilty of this, as I can think of several instances off the top of my head where the game paints elves as these poor helpless victims and the humans as terrible. City Elf (thinking of the origin but just in general too, all city elves), that little girl with the magister's son in DA ][, etc.



#114
naddaya

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Who here is claiming that religion is perfectly accurate?


You said you found the claim that religion is inaccurate amusing. Why then?

#115
The Hierophant

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 And it's not like DA is NOT guilty of this, as I can think of several instances off the top of my head where the game paints elves as these poor helpless victims and the humans as terrible. City Elf (thinking of the origin but just in general too, all city elves), that little girl with the magister's son in DA ][, etc.

Tbh i wouldn't consider the city elves being depicted as second class citizens as writer bias though since there's no overarching theme of them being the good guys while humanity is the bad guys. The depictions are more muddled than people think since humanity and the elves are not lumped together in a singular stereotype.

Compare that to an environmental story written by a PETA Greenpeace extremist who'd most likely not curb their bias when depicting humans.

Plus Kelder is the son of the magistrate. I wouldn't be surprised that if his hypothetical human victims were peasants only that he'd probably be protected from punishment.

#116
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Tbh i wouldn't consider the city elves being depicted as second class citizens as writer bias though since there's no overarching theme of them being the good guys while humanity is the bad guys. The depictions are more muddled than people think since humanity and the elves are not lumped together in a singular stereotype.

Compare that to an environmental story written by a PETA Greenpeace extremist who'd most likely not curb their bias when depicting humans.

Plus Kelder is the son of the magistrate. I wouldn't be surprised that if his hypothetical human victims were peasants only that he'd probably be protected from punishment.

 

Fair enough.

 

You said you found the claim that religion is inaccurate amusing. Why then?

 

Inaccurate and limiting is a different term than simply inaccurate (every single thing is inaccurate--science is inaccurate. Inaccurate and limiting implies that there's something special about religion being inaccurate when that's not the case). It was mostly the "limiting" I was referring to actually, considering that religion was the bases for a lot of scientific innovation over the years...and the fact that a lot of scientists one hundred or more years ago were religious in some manner.


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#117
naddaya

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Inaccurate and limiting is a different term than simply inaccurate (every single thing is inaccurate--science is inaccurate. Inaccurate and limiting implies that there's something special about religion being inaccurate when that's not the case). It was mostly the "limiting" I was referring to actually, considering that religion was the bases for a lot of scientific innovation over the years...and the fact that a lot of scientists one hundred or more years ago were religious in some manner.

 

Limited. As in men are limited. Not universally knowledgeable. Scientists admit that science is inaccurate, while most religious people don't admit that their holy writings might be unreliable.

I have nothing against the Chantry belief, which is a good as any other. It's their general arrogance and self-righteousness I can't stand.


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#118
Realmzmaster

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Limited. As in men are limited. Not universally knowledgeable. Scientists admit that science is inaccurate, while most religious people don't admit that their holy writings might be unreliable.

I have nothing against the Chantry belief, which is a good as any other. It's their general arrogance and self-righteousness I can't stand.

How is having a firm belief in something arrogant and self-righteous? Give me the person who has a firm belief in something rather than the person who has no firm beliefs. The former I know where they are coming from, the later is unknown. By the opinion given  self-righteous and arrogant people exist in both science and religion.

If you talk to a Chantry person more or less you know what to expect based on their belief system. You may or may not agree with it but you know what it is. Richard Dawkins is quite firm in his belief would you consider that arrogant and self-righteous? Is the person really arrogant or self-righteous or is it that one perceives them to be because of his/her own personal bias.


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#119
naddaya

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How is having a firm belief in something arrogant and self-righteous? Give me the person who has a firm belief in something rather than the person who has no firm beliefs. The former I know where they are coming from, the later is unknown. By the opinion given  self-righteous and arrogant people exist in both science and religion.

If you talk to a Chantry person more or less you know what to expect based on their belief system. You may or may not agree with it but you know what it is. Richard Dawkins is quite firm in his belief would you consider that arrogant and self-righteous? Is the person really arrogant or self-righteous or is it that one perceives them to be because of his/her own personal bias.

 

Where did I say belief by itself makes you self-righteous?

 

"I believe in x" is different than "x is true, because holy book y says so and I will follow it blindly". Everyone is biased. Being aware of it keeps your mind open. Brother Genitivi and Wynne got that right, and then we had people like Mother Petrice, Leliana and her made-up visions (the guardian outside the gauntlet even calls her out on that) and blind followers.


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#120
SwobyJ

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Religion isn't firm belief. It is codified belief.

A follower of one may have beliefs that go against their religion, but in doing so, they are typically breaking its rules. It is the 'order' that doesn't like to budge at changing demographics, knowledge, and circumstance - aka 'chaos'.

Sure, the elite will budge. I mean, religious leaders throughout the world are funding top-end technology research. They're also often breaking their own rules, living lives that go directly against what they tell others to do (you can see this in more fundamentalist Islamic nations, for example), but the followers are typically instructed not to think about it and to live their lives in confident service of the 'code' that gives their lives order and purpose. A codified belief, but not always a firm one.

Science may have an element of this, but for the most part, it actually exists to challenge itself. For example, 'evolution' may be a 'scientific fact', but by being a *scientific* fact, that opens itself up to any good new information that may overturn it as 'fact'. Religion typically does not operate in this way. Instead of facts persuading it, it requires just a critical mass of the followers and/or leaders being dragged along through history, societal developments, or more secular laws.


Join a religion to make sense of your life and your place in the world.
Study science to employ your healthy self into advancement and understanding of the world itself.

They're not always exclusive, but at their fundamentals, yeah, they are.
Someone believing in a religion is to even a small degree, flying against pure logic.
Someone believing in science is to even a small degree, relying on reason over ascension.
Sometimes believing in something beyond you is exactly what you need in order to want to make the world a better place.
Sometimes learning of things that would be heresy in your religion, is exactly what you need in order to actually improve the world.

You can submerge yourself into religion without any exposure to science, and you'll probably be okay, but may get 'outdated' fast in this age.
You can submerge yourself into science without any exposure to religion, and you'll probably be okay, but may find your life lacks an external direction that religion may provide (though other entities really like to take the place of this now, like the State, the Corporation, the Community, etc).


TLDR; both religion and science have their place, but that place may be ever changing. Scientists are becoming more open to the concept of the beyond, at least in grander theories. The religious are becoming more open to incorporating scientific discoveries into their code. In some sense, though many may disagree with me, having at least some organized sense of the spiritual may be what humanity will always need if it wants to stay human through the centuries. We just need to do it right. Don't expect your personal religious interpretation to stand the test of millenia though. There's a reason why End Days concepts exist, and I believe (lol) that it is because we can otherwise logically deduce that enough changes happen over the centuries that your exact religion as-it-is, won't be that way in the future - disrupting the order that you want to exist under. This doesn't just happen in religion, but it tends to be a core aspect of it - especially Western/Middle-Eastern ones.

-an agnostic atheist (EDIT: With some spiritual leanings, respect for religious stories and place in historical development)
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#121
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Limited. As in men are limited. Not universally knowledgeable. Scientists admit that science is inaccurate, while most religious people don't admit that their holy writings might be unreliable.

I have nothing against the Chantry belief, which is a good as any other. It's their general arrogance and self-righteousness I can't stand.

 

Arrogance and self-righteousness? I must have missed that in my games, as neither Irving nor Elthina is either of those.

 

The reason that the religious don't accept that their writings are limited is because they believe the writings are inspired of God. They aren't saying THEY are infallible or not limited, they're saying GOD is (or gods, though I can't think of any non-monotheistic religion off the top of my head that believes that), and something He wrote would be the same.

 

They aren't self-righteous. They aren't saying they are perfect. They're saying their deity is.

 

 

 

 For example, 'evolution' may be a 'scientific fact', but by being a *scientific* fact, that opens itself up to any good new information that may overturn it as 'fact'. 

 

I have to ask--what definition of evolution are you using? Do you mean "the change in frequency of alleles over time" or do you mean "the creation of gestalt mechanisms through happenstance"?

 

Reductionism disagrees with the second definition being "scientific fact."


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#122
naddaya

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Arrogance and self-righteousness? I must have missed that in my games, as neither Irving nor Elthina is either of those.

 

The reason that the religious don't accept that their writings are limited is because they believe the writings are inspired of God. They aren't saying THEY are infallible or not limited, they're saying GOD is (or gods, though I can't think of any non-monotheistic religion off the top of my head that believes that), and something He wrote would be the same.

 

They aren't self-righteous. They aren't saying they are perfect. They're saying their deity is.

 

 

Since when Irving is Andrastian? I might have missed something, but don't remember him mentioning anything religious during the game. The fact that the tower is overseen by the Chantry doesn't mean he has to share its beliefs. Elthina seemed reasonable enough, if a tad static, but we saw very little of her. Try talking to the Sister in Ostagar as a mage. Leliana has her moments too. A lot of templars, Petrice, the people who tortured the Qunari in DA2. These are the other side of the coin. Not every Andrastian in existence is self-righteous, hell I even mentioned Genitivi and Wynne. But I played as a mage in both games, and most seemed to be.

 

I understand that they believe so, and their god might exist and be perfect and whatnot. But religion has been used as a tool and holy writings were written by men. Different men. "Inspired" or not, it's too late to say. They've been written and edited in different times, in societies with different needs. I'n not the biggest expert on Christianity here, but if I recall correctly the Bible is riddled with contradictions and allegories, and there are different versions that other men authorized or declared heretical hundreds of years after they were written. It doesn't mean it's all bullshit, but some perspective doesn't hurt.


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#123
In Exile

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Since when Irving is Andrastian? I might have missed something, but don't remember him mentioning anything religious during the game. The fact that the tower is overseen by the Chantry doesn't mean he has to share its beliefs. Elthina seemed reasonable enough, if a tad static, but we saw very little of her. Try talking to the Sister in Ostagar as a mage. Leliana has her moments too. A lot of templars, Petrice, the people who tortured the Qunari in DA2. These are the other side of the coin. Not every Andrastian in existence is self-righteous, hell I even mentioned Genitivi and Wynne. But I played as a mage in both games, and most seemed to be.

 

I understand that they believe so, and their god might exist and be perfect and whatnot. But religion has been used as a tool and holy writings were written by men. Different men. "Inspired" or not, it's too late to say. They've been written and edited in different times, in societies with different needs. I'n not the biggest expert on Christianity here, but if I recall correctly the Bible is riddled with contradictions and allegories, and there are different versions that other men authorized or declared heretical hundreds of years after they were written. It doesn't mean it's all bullshit, but some perspective doesn't hurt.

 

Irving definitely talks about the Maker in the same way that Wynne does, whether or not he believes deep down. 



#124
naddaya

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Irving definitely talks about the Maker in the same way that Wynne does, whether or not he believes deep down. 

 

Alright, I didn't remember that.



#125
Mockingword

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If we're dispensing with story lines because they're 'cliche', surely the first thing to go would be dragon slaying?


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