64 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadowLordXII]

Before you even go there, yes I've seen the quote from David Gaider regarding Loghain's relationship with Howe.

 

Rough Paraphrase (I'm too lazy to track down the thread with the quote): Howe reportedly did a lot of things without Loghain's knowledge or consent, but when/if Loghain found about about them, it was too late to back out of their alliance.

 

But to suggest that Loghain had absolutely nothing to do with the massacre of the Couslands is...a stretch. The timing of the event with Ostagar and Loghain's alliance with Howe makes this extremely fortuitous for Loghain. In fact, it's far too fortuitous for several reasons and additionally considering that Loghain was preparing for a "confrontation" with Cailan concerning his desire for an alliance with Orlais. According to Gaider, the poisoning of Eamon was done in preparation for this confrontation so that Cailan would enter the situation having "already lost."

 

Yet, if we assume that Loghain had nothing to do with the massacre, then that means that he didn't have a plan for when the only other teryn in the nation decided to back the king. Unless Loghain did have a plan and that plan was to unleash Howe.

 

1) Bryce Cousland was a loyalist to the crown

 

Though he had his own doubts about whether or not the darkspawn invasion was a blight, he still obeyed the king's orders and rebuked Howe for speaking ill of the king. His family also never bowed to the Orlesians during the rebellion and fought to restore Ferelden's freedom and rightful heir to the stolen throne. 

 

Bryce respected the king and held duty to the country as necessary for a lawful citizen. Without substantial proof to back Loghain's suspicions (Which loghain himself could never find until long after Cailan was dead), Bryce would see no reason to betray or stand against the king. Opposed by the only other teryn in the country, Loghain's attempt to curtail Cailan would be in danger.

 

2) Bryce Cousland was well-beloved and regarded by the bannorn

 

Not only is Bryce a war-hero; Not only is the head of one of the most powerful houses in Ferelden; But he was so well-loved by the bannorn that many actually preferred for him to be king rather than Cailan. This sounds like an individual who had more political clout than Eamon or Loghain combined. 

 

If Loghain was actually going confront Cailan, he would also need to have the bannorn supporting him. A prospect made far more difficult is Bryce Cousland opposed Loghain. When one Teryn argues against another Teryn, who do the lesser lords support? The one that they trust or the one who pays them and I could see Bryce beating out Loghain on both scores though he'd only need the former.

 

Eliminating Bryce and his family also means eliminating your most powerful potential opponent. It means that when Loghain confronts Cailan, the bannorn may not back their king so readily.

 

3) If Bryce survived or Fergus was known to be alive then they would've been crowned king after Cailan died

 

Let's be honest, nobody believed Howe's attempt to slander the Couslands. Nobody even trusted Howe, his takeover of Denerem was about as subtle as an elephant stomping through popcorn. The only reason that no one did anything about was either because they couldn't (Most of Ferelden at the time) or because Howe was a benefit to them (Loghain). If Fergus had turned up earlier, then significant portions of the bannorn would flock to Fergus' son and declare him king.

 

Loghain is perceived by a significant majority as a power-hungry regent and usurper; Anora is a barren powerless/actionless queen without a legitimate claim or heir to the throne; and Cailan died without legitimate or illegitimate issue. Even Alistair's claim is on thin water and can only be backed by Arl Eamon or Bann Teagan with the former being poisoned and the latter occupied with protecting the former's lands from an army of deathless warriors (Black Cauldron reference for the win!).

 

With no way of confirming if there is anyone else with royal blood, the bannorn would be logically quick to find a suitable replacement. Who better than the leader of one of the oldest and most respected noble houses in Ferelden? Many nobles preferred Bryce to be king anyway and now that the throne is empty, they can easily put up Bryce or Fergus as a legitimate claimant to the throne and they'd likely win a landsmeet.

 

Which would be another threat for Loghain.

 

Loghain was adamant for keeping his daughter as ruling queen of Ferelden. So much so, that he even rejects Maric's bastard son on the grounds that he'd be a puppet for Eamon (valid concern, but hypocritical coming from Loghain's mouth). If the other teryn decides to claim the throne, he could picture much of the country backing them. Which means that he wouldn't be fighting scattered and mostly aimless resistance from the bannorn, he would be fighting an organized and determined counter-movement.

 

Hence why the Couslands would have to die to enable Loghain's plans.

 

4) Eliminating the Couslands leaves room for a vital ally

 

The game doesn't provide enough information to determine whether or not Howe was resisted in claiming Highever. Perhaps there were holdouts of resistance that refused to bend knee; maybe he was able to efficiently take control of the region...we simply do not know.

 

What we do know is that the absence of Bryce and his family allowed Loghain to install Howe as Teryn. This in turn allows Loghain and Howe to have effective control over the North and West of all of Ferelden along with all of their resources and positions.

 

Concluding Thoughts

 

So yeah, I'm heavily certain that Loghain was somehow involved in the massacre of the Couslands for all of the above reasons. But I am willing to give him somewhat of a benefit of a doubt. Maybe Loghain only intended for Howe to capture the Couslands and Howe had his own plan that still worked, but not quite in Loghain's favor.

 

These reasons were made with the consideration for both Loghain's plan to confront Cailan about the Orlesian alliance and for Loghain's attempts to seize power after Ostagar. Either way, Loghain had far too much to gain from Howe's "coincidental" overstep.

[Br3admax]

Before you even go there, yes I've seen the quote from David Gaider regarding Loghain's relationship with Howe.

 

 

So why are we even having this discussion? Gaider's the head writer, he kind of trumps your opinions. 

 

 

 

Rough Paraphrase (I'm too lazy to track down the thread with the quote): Howe reportedly did a lot of things without Loghain's knowledge or consent, but when/if Loghain found about about them, it was too late to back out of their alliance.

 

But to suggest that Loghain had absolutely nothing to do with the massacre of the Couslands is...a stretch. The timing of the event with Ostagar and Loghain's alliance with Howe makes this extremely fortuitous for Loghain. In fact, it's far too fortuitous for several reasons and additionally considering that Loghain was preparing for a "confrontation" with Cailan concerning his desire for an alliance with Orlais. According to Gaider, the poisoning of Eamon was done in preparation for this confrontation so that Cailan would enter the situation having "already lost."

 

That has almost nothing to do with Howe. I agree it was the best time to strike, but there are plenty of equally likely situations. It's not a stretch anymore than what you are saying, especially since it directly contradicts the writer you're also using a source. 

 

 

Yet, if we assume that Loghain had nothing to do with the massacre, then that means that he didn't have a plan for when the only other teryn in the nation decided to back the king. Unless Loghain did have a plan and that plan was to unleash Howe.

 

 

The Couslands have absolutely 0 claims to the throne. The only way they would be able to take power would be staging a coup of their own. Being nobility, no matter how high, doesn't give one a claim to the throne. Otherwise, the Human Noble would be able to take power at the Landsmeet on their own.

 

1) Bryce Cousland was a loyalist to the crown

 

Though he had his own doubts about whether or not the darkspawn invasion was a blight, he still obeyed the king's orders and rebuked Howe for speaking ill of the king. His family also never bowed to the Orlesians during the rebellion and fought to restore Ferelden's freedom and rightful heir to the stolen throne. 

 

Bryce respected the king and held duty to the country as necessary for a lawful citizen. Without substantial proof to back Loghain's suspicions (Which loghain himself could never find until long after Cailan was dead), Bryce would see no reason to betray or stand against the king. Opposed by the only other teryn in the country, Loghain's attempt to curtail Cailan would be in danger.

 

 

Loghain too was and is loyal to the crown. Loghain only left Calian at the very last moment, as per the source you contradict but still use as evidence. Loghain had no overarching plan of killing Calian and assuming the throne. Loghain was as loyal to Ferelden and Merric, and even Calian, as they come. This is disputed by almost no one. 

 

2) Bryce Cousland was well-beloved and regarded by the bannorn

 

Not only is Bryce a war-hero; Not only is the head of one of the most powerful houses in Ferelden; But he was so well-loved by the bannorn that many actually preferred for him to be king rather than Cailan. This sounds like an individual who had more political clout than Eamon or Loghain combined. 

 

If Loghain was actually going confront Cailan, he would also need to have the bannorn supporting him. A prospect made far more difficult is Bryce Cousland opposed Loghain. When one Teryn argues against another Teryn, who do the lesser lords support? The one that they trust or the one who pays them and I could see Bryce beating out Loghain on both scores though he'd only need the former.

 

Eliminating Bryce and his family also means eliminating your most powerful potential opponent. It means that when Loghain confronts Cailan, the bannorn may not back their king so readily.

 

See what I said above about claims to the thrown. No matter what a few nobles may thing, in the end, they will support whomever has the most legitimate claim. Such is the nature of the Landsmeet. The only thing killing Bryce did was advance Howe. Loghain stained to gain nothing from it, and he neither lost troubles, nor expected to. 

 

 

 

3) If Bryce survived or Fergus was known to be alive then they would've been crowned king after Cailan died

 

Let's be honest, nobody believed Howe's attempt to slander the Couslands. Nobody even trusted Howe, his takeover of Denerem was about as subtle as an elephant stomping through popcorn. The only reason that no one did anything about was either because they couldn't (Most of Ferelden at the time) or because Howe was a benefit to them (Loghain). If Fergus had turned up earlier, then significant portions of the bannorn would flock to Fergus' son and declare him king.

 

Loghain is perceived by a significant majority as a power-hungry regent and usurper; Anora is a barren powerless/actionless queen without a legitimate claim or heir to the throne; and Cailan died without legitimate or illegitimate issue. Even Alistair's claim is on thin water and can only be backed by Arl Eamon or Bann Teagan with the former being poisoned and the latter occupied with protecting the former's lands from an army of deathless warriors (Black Cauldron reference for the win!).

 

With no way of confirming if there is anyone else with royal blood, the bannorn would be logically quick to find a suitable replacement. Who better than the leader of one of the oldest and most respected noble houses in Ferelden? Many nobles preferred Bryce to be king anyway and now that the throne is empty, they can easily put up Bryce or Fergus as a legitimate claimant to the throne and they'd likely win a landsmeet.

 

Which would be another threat for Loghain.

 

Loghain was adamant for keeping his daughter as ruling queen of Ferelden. So much so, that he even rejects Maric's bastard son on the grounds that he'd be a puppet for Eamon (valid concern, but hypocritical coming from Loghain's mouth). If the other teryn decides to claim the throne, he could picture much of the country backing them. Which means that he wouldn't be fighting scattered and mostly aimless resistance from the bannorn, he would be fighting an organized and determined counter-movement.

 

Hence why the Couslands would have to die to enable Loghain's plans.

 

 

This is pretty much exactly the same as the last point, but I'm just going to say it again: They have no claims to the throne. No matter what the people may think, they can not simply hand Fereldan over to anyone when a legitimate heir to Cailan is still very much alive and has been ruling the country since her wedding night. Loghain is closer to the throne than the Couslands and would likely win in any Landsmeet that he would not be suspected of foul play in. This is shown when the very capable leader and Cousland Human Noble is rejected by the bannorn unless they do favors for them. And even then, only to back a more legitimate claim, not the Noble themselves.

 

4) Eliminating the Couslands leaves room for a vital ally

 

The game doesn't provide enough information to determine whether or not Howe was resisted in claiming Highever. Perhaps there were holdouts of resistance that refused to bend knee; maybe he was able to efficiently take control of the region...we simply do not know.

 

What we do know is that the absence of Bryce and his family allowed Loghain to install Howe as Teryn. This in turn allows Loghain and Howe to have effective control over the North and West of all of Ferelden along with all of their resources and positions.

 

Again, Loghain never planned to kill Cailan. Either way, the reason Howe is able to effectively control the region is because unlike everyone else, he kept his troops, and they aren't rotting in a pit at Ostagar unlike pretty much every other noble in Ferelden. Loghain was again not involved. 

 

 

 

Concluding Thoughts

 

So yeah, I'm heavily certain that Loghain was somehow involved in the massacre of the Couslands for all of the above reasons. But I am willing to give him somewhat of a benefit of a doubt. Maybe Loghain only intended for Howe to capture the Couslands and Howe had his own plan that still worked, but not quite in Loghain's favor.

 

These reasons were made with the consideration for both Loghain's plan to confront Cailan about the Orlesian alliance and for Loghain's attempts to seize power after Ostagar. Either way, Loghain had far too much to gain from Howe's "coincidental" overstep.

Your reasons contradict what's in game. You're again implying Loghain somehow conspired with Howe, even though none of the evidence you gave helps this argument, some of  it, namely Gaider, contradicted it. Again, and hopefully for the final time, Loghain did not plain to kill Cailan. He had absolutely nothing to gain from Howe gaining power. He did however see a new ally that effectively controlled nearly as much power as he did, when he needed it the most, and took this opportunity to advance himself, to secure his position and to eliminate any threats to him. 

[ShadowLordXII]

Is this the quote?

 

"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider

 

Thank you.

 

However, I will point out that WOG neither confirms nor denies my suspicions. Particularly due to the vagueness of exactly what how much stuff How did behind Loghain's back.

[ShadowLordXII]

snip

 

I'll address this point by point, which you seem to be missing.

 

1) As I noted, Gaider neither directly confirmed or denied that Loghain was involved in the Cousland massacre. Hence my topic of discussion.

 

2) How is it a stretch to analyze how a correlated massacre coincidentally helps Loghain around the time that he's planning to confront Cailan in a heavy political ordeal and already took action to isolate a potential ally (Eamon)

 

3) Whatever Loghain was going to do to Cailan concerning the confrontation, it was huge enough to have him poison Eamon to keep him out of the way. This isn't about claims to the throne (that's later), this is about Loghain positioning himself to win a battle before it begins. He probably would've killed him, but whatever Loghain was going to do, it wasn't going to be pretty. Also, Loghain is loyal to Ferelden above even it's ruler and the game (and books) clearly shows as both a good thing and a bad thing if not kept in check. He's even been willing to betray fellow Fereldens (including Maric) for the sake of Ferelden's "Greater Good".

 

4) Anora had not real claim either (except as Cailan's widow) and she can be installed as queen. Again though, the point is that Bryce has enough respect and clout in the Landsmeet to undo the intentions of Loghain's "confrontation".

 

5) Cailan is dead and has no heir to the throne. At this point, it's a free-for-all as far as Anora and Loghain were concerned. If a living Cousland shows up alive, nothing suggests that they wouldn't have some portion of the bannorn that wants them to be king. As I said before, Anora is believed to be barren and a good portion of the Landsmeet sees Loghain as a tyrant. Even Alistair only has a chance at the throne if Eamon is awoken. My point is that with an empty throne, any noteworthy candidate with enough support could potentially sit upon that throne.

 

6) The last point honestly was written with a post-Ostagar mindset and still stands as the game clearly shows. If nothing had been done about Highever, then the Cousland's would've organized a substantive resistance to Loghain and Bryce would've called the Landsmeet himself. A landsmeet which, based on the above reasons, he'd win. Hence why taking him out and giving his title to Howe would be additionally advantageous.

 

7) Noting that Loghain is guilty of as an accomplice to kidnapping and torture of Ferelden civilians, templars and nobles; Guilty of making a slavery pact with Tevinter (regardless of his weak justifications); Used a Blood Mage to poison Eamon; and Framed the Grey Wardens for an act that they did not commit and hired Assassins to hunt down and kill them...is it really far-fetched to ask if he was involved in the Cousland massacre? The game shows that Loghain is capable of getting his hands dirty to do what he thinks is right (whether he actually is right or if he's wrong) and is above sacrificing nothing save his own daughter for Ferelden.

 

Granted, if he was involved (Again Gaider neither directly confirms nor denies if he was), then it wasn't done with any amount of the gleeful joy that Howe had.

 

 

 

He could have agreed to having them murdered but I really don't see him doing that. I see it as Howe using the opportunity. Perhaps it was meant to be a surgical strike. We know that Bryce was supposed to leave with Howe. I think if there was a plan it was to deal with bryce. I'm not even sure Fergus was part of the equation. Howe knew he went on ahead. But when you get to the landsmeet, being a surviving cousland means nothing so if that is the case, then it must be the same for fergus I would think. It seems like once you own the castle, you are the new Teryn and there are no bloodrights which as a cousland you say you want but it gets laughed off and nobody that acknowledges you as a noble when you are in Denerim seems to care much at all about it. As if it's totally okay and par for the course.. your castle is taken, the teryn killed, you have no bloodrights. At least that is how it seemed. I might be wrong but based on the game... fergus can retake it because howe is dead. That makes me think that bryce would be the specific target if there was one and it would be a tactical strike to keep him from rallying support in the bannorn.

 

As I'd said before, the likely reason that no one appears to be actively fighting against Howe is because at that point in the game (The Landsmeet), he's one of the most powerful men in Ferelden. Battered by the Civil War and the Blight in the past year, no one would think it wise to oppose Howe especially while he's also being backed by Loghain and the Queen.

 

I'd also chalk it up to mechanic limitations. The same limitations that prevent a dwarf noble warden from becoming king though the scenario is clearly there. There's six origins for one character, there's likely only so much that the developers can do make each origin interaction with the main quest unique while actually having enough resources for said main quest.

[Br3admax]

 

 

I'll address this point by point, which you seem to be missing.

 

1) As I noted, Gaider neither directly confirmed or denied that Loghain was involved in the Cousland massacre. Hence my topic of discussion.

 

Uhm, I you are talking about his relationship with Howe, which is what I spoke on. Your scenario is highly unlikely is not supported by anything in game.

 

2) How is it a stretch to analyze how a correlated massacre coincidentally helps Loghain around the time that he's planning to confront Cailan in a heavy political ordeal and already took action to isolate a potential ally (Eamon)

 

It doesn't help anybody but Howe, that's how it's a stretch. You're just using your assumption of how the Fereldan nobility actually works, when in Ferelden, titles must be earned as well as inherited. Killing each other off won't solve any problems for anyone. Origins is testament to this. Plenty of in game books speak on this this.

 

 

 

3) Whatever Loghain was going to do to Cailan concerning the confrontation, it was huge enough to have him poison Eamon to keep him out of the way. This isn't about claims to the throne (that's later), this is about Loghain positioning himself to win a battle before it begins. He probably would've killed him, but whatever Loghain was going to do, it wasn't going to be pretty. Also, Loghain is loyal to Ferelden above even it's ruler and the game (and books) clearly shows as both a good thing and a bad thing if not kept in check. He's even been willing to betray fellow Fereldens (including Maric) for the sake of Ferelden's "Greater Good".

 

Again, supported only by your opinions on how the plot should go. Such personal attacks because of what you think make sense, without backing in game and out of it by the writers means absolutely nothing. Saying, "He probably would have...." is probably some of the worse evidence you can have for this kind of thing. 

 

4) Anora had not real claim either (except as Cailan's widow) and she can be installed as queen. Again though, the point is that Bryce has enough respect and clout in the Landsmeet to undo the intentions of Loghain's "confrontation".

 

No he doesn't. This again is backed only by your opinions. Second, being queen-consort is a damn good claim when there are no other heirs to the Therin bloodline, so what? Second, as Cailan had no heirs of his own, she would their for inherent any of his titles, with the backing of her own leadership skills established for the last five years. She has more claim than anyone except Alistair. 

 

 

 

5) Cailan is dead and has no heir to the throne. At this point, it's a free-for-all as far as Anora and Loghain were concerned. If a living Cousland shows up alive, nothing suggests that they wouldn't have some portion of the bannorn that wants them to be king. As I said before, Anora is believed to be barren and a good portion of the Landsmeet sees Loghain as a tyrant. Even Alistair only has a chance at the throne if Eamon is awoken. My point is that with an empty throne, any noteworthy candidate with enough support could potentially sit upon that throne.

 

 

You really aren't getting what I'm saying about claims do you? There is no nobility in the entire world, Thedas or otherwise, that works this way. Eamon has claim by being Cailan's closest living relative, as far as anyone knows, Bryce has no claim at all in any form or fashion. Notice Loghain has claim by being Anora's father. Not by being a teryn. 

 

6) The last point honestly was written with a post-Ostagar mindset and still stands as the game clearly shows. If nothing had been done about Highever, then the Cousland's would've organized a substantive resistance to Loghain and Bryce would've called the Landsmeet himself. A landsmeet which, based on the above reasons, he'd win. Hence why taking him out and giving his title to Howe would be additionally advantageous.

 

Well even if we went by this assumption, Bryce still would not be able to become king because of the reasons I gave above. Only once all other options are exhausted, would he even be considered, unless he took the country by force. 

 

 

 

7) Noting that Loghain is guilty of as an accomplice to kidnapping and torture of Ferelden civilians, templars and nobles; Guilty of making a slavery pact with Tevinter (regardless of his weak justifications); Used a Blood Mage to poison Eamon; and Framed the Grey Wardens for an act that they did not commit and hired Assassins to hunt down and kill them...is it really far-fetched to ask if he was involved in the Cousland massacre? The game shows that Loghain is capable of getting his hands dirty to do what he thinks is right (whether he actually is right or if he's wrong) and is above sacrificing nothing save his own daughter for Ferelden.

 

The fallacy is strong is this paragraph. This is the absolute opposite of how you should support a claim. We have to look at each case separately, We aren't talking about what Loghain is capable of doing, We are talking about what you claimed he did, or at least what you believed he did. 

 

 

 

Granted, if he was involved (Again Gaider neither directly confirms nor denies if he was), then it wasn't done with any amount of the gleeful joy that Howe had.

 

 

As I'd said before, the likely reason that no one appears to be actively fighting against Howe is because at that point in the game (The Landsmeet), he's one of the most powerful men in Ferelden. Battered by the Civil War and the Blight in the past year, no one would think it wise to oppose Howe especially while he's also being backed by Loghain and the Queen.

 

I'd also chalk it up to mechanic limitations. The same limitations that prevent a dwarf noble warden from becoming king though the scenario is clearly there. There's six origins for one character, there's likely only so much that the developers can do make each origin interaction with the main quest unique while actually having enough resources for said main quest.

 

One, no one is debating Loghain's character. We are talking about this conspiracy theory that you're tossing around. Either way, a Human Noble has the ability to help lead the country, so that last point is moot. As to the middle, that has nothing to do with anything, least of all what Loghain did before Ostagar, when Howe had no one stopping him still for week's to month's time. Why? Because of the already in game stated reason of all of Ferelden's army being loss. The first thing Loghain does upon his return is petition the bans to draft more troops and "rebuild the armies lost at Ostagar." The first thing Alistar suggests is Eamon because he is the only lord in Ferelden who kept his army. These are things that are established. 

 

The reasons you make up will always loss to established in game information.    

[ShadowLordXII]

snip

 

You know what, let's just agree to disagree since you're disregarding pretty much everything that I'm bringing up.

[Kuro.Ookami]

snip

Technically, Bryce could have been king. In the Human Noble origin, they explain that when Maric was lost at sea, the Nobles turned to Bryce but he refused and said that only a Theirin should sit the throne.

Wouldn't be surprising for the Nobles to offer the throne to someone else.

[gottaloveme]

which is why the ending where Alistair marries Cousland girl is so apt. Cousland + Theirin. And yes I think that if Bryce was alive and kickin' he would have given Loghain what for over leaving Cailan to die. Strong voice with values and morals and a high sense of duty to the people under his care. Always thought a quest with one or other Cousland child as a 'Robin Hood' would be sweet.

[Xetykins]

Technically, Bryce could have been king. In the Human Noble origin, they explain that when Maric was lost at sea, the Nobles turned to Bryce but he refused and said that only a Theirin should sit the throne.
Wouldn't be surprising for the Nobles to offer the throne to someone else.

This is correct iirc. The couslands were second only next to the king. Some would even debate theyre on par with the crown.

On the WoG is redundant specially on the part where gaider said that loghain did not know about the couslands until after ostagar when toolset said otherwise (thank you tsm). Not because he chooses to retcon but no doubt because he has writen craploads so things got jumbled. He is human and not a machine after all.

[Corker]

The quote is indeed, on its own, vague.  If you look at the original post, though, it seems pretty clear that the context re: which of Howe's actions Loghain did or did not know about, the Cousland massacre is the only one called out. In context, it's not unreasonable to conclude that's what's under discussion.
 
That said, if you start with the premise that Loghain was involved in a conspiracy to eliminate the Couslands, then there's no way to falsify that.  Any lack of evidence of it is merely conspiracy cover-up; any evidence to the contrary is conspiracy lies. 
 

1) Bryce Cousland was a loyalist to the crown

Being a loyalist does not mean being a toady yes-man lickspittle. Bryce is perfectly capable of supporting the Theirin line, and of rebuking Howe for disrespect, while also respectfully disagreeing with Cailan's policies.

Would he? I don't think we have nearly enough information to say. Since he went and married his eldest son, not to a local noblewoman, but to a wealthy Antivan merchant family, I would lean toward him favoring increased trade and ties with Antiva over Orlais. OTOH, I have a vague memory of Eleanor mentioning that Bryce is "just back from Orlais," and certainly that's the "treason" Howe points to to justify his attack.
 

2) Bryce Cousland was well-beloved and regarded by the bannorn

So wouldn't it have made more sense to try to get him on Loghain's side? Again, if you believe (I do) that it's possible to be a royalist and respectfully disagree with the king. I think Bryce is certainly interested in more trade; but - especially given his personal history with the Orlesians - it might not take much to convince him that the young king (who never fought them) has the right idea (more trade) but is going about it the wrong way (with Orlais). He could support Cailan's overall policy while also supporting its redirection... perhaps toward Antiva? Good for the king, good for the country, good for Highever. What's not to like?
 

3) If Bryce survived or Fergus was known to be alive then they would've been crowned king after Cailan died

So... on the off-chance that his negotiation with Cailan failed, he'd resort to murder... and in the off-chance that he'd need to murder, he pre-emptively ordered the death of a major Ferelden house, and one of his old comrades-in-arms?

It would make so much more sense to poison Eamon in preparation for the negotiation with Cailan. If that somehow went awry, then he could begin setting into motion a more violent murdery plot. The Couslands could still be removed before the murder.

Yes, even though Ostagar. Loghain (and Howe) couldn't have been planning on a darkspawn horde conveniently drawing off Highever's troops right before this Cailan/Loghain showdown. Whatever "stop Cailan from inviting the Orlesians back" plan they are alleged to have had, it has to function without Ostagar. So if there was a murder option, it could have been executed after the failed negotiations.
 

Let's be honest, nobody believed Howe's attempt to slander the Couslands. Nobody even trusted Howe, his takeover of Denerem was about as subtle as an elephant stomping through popcorn.

Nobody (aside from the Couslands) liked Howe. At least the Couslands trusted him, and he doesn't seem to have given anyone outside of Amaranthine cause to distrust him. His daughter alienates herself from the family and his seneschal stops following his orders in the years after he sent Nathaniel to the Marches, but he seems to have kept a happy face on for visits outside his own domain, if his intro at Castle Cousland is typical.
 

4) Eliminating the Couslands leaves room for a vital ally
 
The game doesn't provide enough information to determine whether or not Howe was resisted in claiming Highever. Perhaps there were holdouts of resistance that refused to bend knee; maybe he was able to efficiently take control of the region...we simply do not know.

Actually, I think we do. There's some ambient conversation between Howe's troops in the kitchen when you go to Rescue the Queen. I don't recall the exact wording, but Highever was not a happy place, and they were glad to be away from it. They were hated, although I don't know if there was violent resistance.

This is a circular argument. We know Loghain was working with Howe because the massacre lets him give Highever to Howe, and he wants to do this because Howe is working for him.

Certainly Howe is working for Loghain after Ostagar. But I don't credit Loghain with the psychic powers he would need to foresee that, and then go out to secure a reward for Howe in the shape of Highever ahead of time.

[Wulfram]

Howe must have had reason to believe that he would get away with his actions at Highever, which means he must have had foreknowledge of Loghain's plans, whether or not Loghain had foreknowledge of his.

[theskymoves]

I can't provide a cite (I'm pressed for time ATM), but Ferelden does not have a hereditary monarchy. The King or Queen is elected by the Landsmeet. Any of the nobility can be considered for the position, though obviously there has been a very very long tradition of and preference for placing descendants of Calenhad on the throne. So no, poster way up thread that I cannae be arsed to quote, Anora does not have a more valid claim on the throne than any other member of the nobility just because she's already Queen. She has a claim, that is as valid ads that pit for by anyone else crazy enough to want the job,  and under normal  (read: no player intervention) circumstances, the Landsmeet would decide, by a vote.

 

The game is littered with allusions to this - Alistair suggesting that Arl Eamon is the best candidate to challenge Loghain and Anora for the throne, the discussion of Bryce Cousland being a considered by some to follow Maric on the throne, rather than Cailan. And then it muddies the waters by first boiling it down to Alistair vs Anora, and then by allowing the player to usurp the powers of the Landmeet, who apparently don;t take their obligations very seriously. Or maybe they were just bored by the protracted Landsmeet nonsense... (Hysterical speechifin'; hysterical accusation throwin'; lotsa votin'; big fightin; "I want to talk to Anora first." "I want to talk to Alistair." "I want to talk to Anora." ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... /snark)

 

Anyway, check either The World of Thedas or the Green Ronin RPG materials (I cannae remember which one offhand, and there might be a codex entry as well) for the detailed information on Ferelden's government, social structure, and legal system. It's actually pretty interesting stuff.

[Cobra's_back]

Good point theskymoves I remember this in-game "The game is littered with allusions to this - Alistair suggesting that Arl Eamon is the best candidate to challenge Loghain and Anora for the throne, the discussion of Bryce Cousland being a considered by some to follow Maric on the throne, rather than Cailan."

 

"The King or Queen is elected by the Landsmeet. Any of the nobility can be considered for the position, though obviously there has been a very very long tradition of and preference for placing descendants of Calenhad on the throne." I thought this as well.

[sylvanaerie]

While the game doesn't say he was involved, I have yet to find anything that refutes his involvement.  In the vacuum of evidence for one or the other, I let the Origin circumstances dictate his level of involvement.

 

For me, it adds to the drama that he knew (something) of what Howe planned.  This is my Cousland scenario.  Maybe he told Howe to just capture/arrest them for questioning and Howe's excuse when they are killed was 'they fought back too hard' or something.  And because it's more convenient for Loghain to just look the other way, he does so, and accepts their loss with the same cold calculation of "they were expendable sacrifices".  

 

I realize this is just as much a head canon as my runs that have him not know of Howe's involvement, but it adds to my enjoyment of the game to alter my perceptions of the situations.

 

Did he?  Or didn't he?  I don't know, but I can see arguments for both sides of the issue.  One of the things that adds to his complexity I think.

[Br3admax]

Technically, Bryce could have been king. In the Human Noble origin, they explain that when Maric was lost at sea, the Nobles turned to Bryce but he refused and said that only a Theirin should sit the throne.

Wouldn't be surprising for the Nobles to offer the throne to someone else.

I didn't say he couldn't be king. But what I did say is that there is a line of succession to go through. Whomever has the biggest claim, would be the one to take it. Anora already has a claim, and has shown herself to be a competent ruler for sometime now. Now sure, they could offer the crown to him a second time, completely disregarding the larger claims to the thrown whom are fitting to take the throne, unlike Cailan whom is an awful king, hence the nobility not wanting to give him the crown, but in this case it seems unlikely. Why else would the HN have no claim, when their Origins shows that they are just as competent as a ruler, at least more than Fergus. All that aside, I hardly see how that makes Loghain's hand in the what happened during the HN Origin anymore certain, which is the point of the debate here.

[Br3admax]

Howe must have had reason to believe that he would get away with his actions at Highever, which means he must have had foreknowledge of Loghain's plans, whether or not Loghain had foreknowledge of his.

Loghain did not plan on killing Cailan at Ostagar. Confrontation =/= killing. 

[Kuro.Ookami]

I didn't say he couldn't be king. But what I did say is that there is a line of succession to go through. Whomever has the biggest claim, would be the one to take it. Anora already has a claim, and has shown herself to be a competent ruler for sometime now. Now sure, they could offer the crown to him a second time, completely disregarding the larger claims to the thrown whom are fitting to take the throne, unlike Cailan whom is an awful king, hence the nobility not wanting to give him the crown, but in this case it seems unlikely. Why else would the HN have no claim, when their Origins shows that they are just as competent as a ruler, at least more than Fergus. All that aside, I hardly see how that makes Loghain's hand in the what happened during the HN Origin anymore certain, which is the point of the debate here.

Read my post again. Bryce was offered the throne even when Cailan was alive. They don't HAVE to go with the line of succession, they PREFER to because Calenhad, Moira and Maric all fought for their country and it's a way to respect them.

As for the HN, not many Nobles know him. Yes, he was able to make a big army to fight the Darkspawn but there is a difference between winning a war and ruling a Kingdom which, as far as we know, the HN has little to no experience. He's still unproven in the eyes of many Nobles. And furthermore, Bryce was offered the throne, he didn't make a claim for it. The Couslands have no basis to make a claim but it doesn't mean they can't be offered the position if the other Nobles vote for them.

[Br3admax]

Read my post again. Bryce was offered the throne even when Cailan was alive. They don't HAVE to go with the line of succession, they PREFER to because Calenhad, Moira and Maric all fought for their country and it's a way to respect them.

 

That was when there were no other rulers. I acknowledged what you said, and went on to say that the situation has changed. I can't argue that it would most certainly would not be offered to him again, but it's unlikely as I said. 

 

 

As for the HN, not many Nobles know him. Yes, he was able to make a big army to fight the Darkspawn but there is a difference between winning a war and ruling a Kingdom which, as far as we know, the HN has little to no experience. He's still unproven in the eyes of many Nobles. And furthermore, Bryce was offered the throne, he didn't make a claim for it. The Couslands have no basis to make a claim but it doesn't mean they can't be offered the position if the other Nobles vote for them.

Nope, the nobility know very well who the younger Cousland is. They know of their skill in battle, and their skill as a leader. They are far from unproven, even before the game begins, and this only in their late teens or so. Most assumed that the Human Noble would actually become teryn, not Fergus. Now, as to the second part, as I said the situation is not comparable. Loghain is not a leader, so the throne would not be offered to him. Anora is a leader. I just don't see the comparison. 

[Jeffonl1]

@starlitegirl This is an excellent summary: thanks!

[Kuro.Ookami]

That was when there were no other rulers. I acknowledged what you said, and went on to say that the situation has changed. I can't argue that it would most certainly would not be offered to him again, but it's unlikely as I said.
Nope, the nobility know very well who the younger Cousland is. They know of their skill in battle, and their skill as a leader. They are far from unproven, even before the game begins, and this only in their late teens or so. Most assumed that the Human Noble would actually become teryn, not Fergus. Now, as to the second part, as I said the situation is not comparable. Loghain is not a leader, so the throne would not be offered to him. Anora is a leader. I just don't see the comparison.

The situation is the same. The king died and they are looking for a successor. At the time Maric was lost, they offered it to Bryce as he was the most competent leader. Not because of his blood, otherwise they would have went with Eamon or Callan directly. Anora has no claim whatsoever to the throne, she is the Queen only by marriage. Had she bore Cailan's child, it would have been different but now the only one with a good claim is Alistair. All the other potential candidate are only based on their skills as a leader, not a bloodline claim.

As for the HN, we know that Nobles close to Bryce knew about his prowess but Bann Teagan don't recognize him along with many others other noble. How could they back him if they don't know him? Some like Bann Alfastanna knew him but they don't have the weight to put him on the throne, only Eamon does and he would rather put Alistair. If the HN was so well known, he wouldn't have been able to walk in Denerim without people recognizing him either.

[Xetykins]

 Bryce is likeable. Bryce is the only noble that really comes off as a honorable and good guy.

Theres quite a few good and honorable nobles imo. Theres alfstanna, brylland, sighard, Arl wulff, and specially Teagan. The way Teagan spoke up against Loghain after ostagar was really something to behold. The guy has iron balls.

[sylvanaerie]

The situation is the same. The king died and they are looking for a successor. At the time Maric was lost, they offered it to Bryce as he was the most competent leader. Not because of his blood, otherwise they would have went with Eamon or Callan directly. Anora has no claim whatsoever to the throne, she is the Queen only by marriage. Had she bore Cailan's child, it would have been different but now the only one with a good claim is Alistair. All the other potential candidate are only based on their skills as a leader, not a bloodline claim.

As for the HN, we know that Nobles close to Bryce knew about his prowess but Bann Teagan don't recognize him along with many others other noble. How could they back him if they don't know him? Some like Bann Alfastanna knew him but they don't have the weight to put him on the throne, only Eamon does and he would rather put Alistair. If the HN was so well known, he wouldn't have been able to walk in Denerim without people recognizing him either.

 

If the right line of questioning is chosen, Teagan will ask if he knows the Noble Warden, and will recognize you after you identify yourself as Bryce's youngest.  Teagan isn't that into politics, most of the time he went to Denerim it was to visit his nephew (Cailan) and enjoy hunting trips with him, leaving the political aspects of the Landsmeet to Eamon (one reason he really isn't suited for the role Eamon must play in the game).  

 

Certainly the other banns recognize you, Alfstanna, Sighard do.  That Arl Wulff doesn't is understandable since the decimation of his arling and the loss of his sons is more on his mind.  The reverend mother in Lothering will release Sten if you tell her you are Bryce Cousland's child, on your reference (though i think you also have to choose the more sizable offering of 5 gold vs 30 silvers to the chantry).