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[sylvanaerie]

Alfstanna and teagan ... don't know about wulff as you see him at his worst and you can't even say anything to him really. You are the warden. You think that might give way to an exchange, but he's just a jerk. I'll write that off as he's a jerk in grief. But bryland is a jerk for not reason when you first approach as is sighard. Click on bryland by accident and he's rude. Sighard is pretty abrupt until he realizes who you are. That cancels out both of them as jerks in my book. Alfstanna is polite and nice to you. Not even really rude about the ring. She wants to know how you got it but she handles it well. Teagan is very polite and nice. So I forgot two but the rest are jerks.

 

Sighard is worried about his missing son, and the advance of the darkspawn.  Recall, his territory is just south of Denerim and in the eventual path of the darkspawn.  Bryland has also lost parts (if not all) of his arling as well, worried about his people scattered to Redcliffe and Lothering.  We all know the eventual fate of Lothering.  Like Wulff, I'm willing to give them a break considering the weight of their concerns and they seem to actually concerned about their people, which makes them (normally) okay sorts in my book.

 

Certainly they are more sympathetic than Ceorlic whose excuse of being in Denerim and away from the duties in his bannorn is iffy at best.

[sylvanaerie]

LOL Don't get me started on the sheer wonderful that is Teagan.  His is a case study in "grace under pressure" that he's still polite and kind even despite his (admittedly more immediate and dire danger) than the others really makes him a shining, breakout character among the Bannorn.  He even takes a few moments out of his worry to actually turn on the charm and try to flirt with the lady warden in the midst of the dire circumstances.  Then has the grace to be taken aback by his forwardness.

 

God, I love that NPC.

[sylvanaerie]

Who is Ceorlic? I must have missed him.

 
Ceorlic is that old fart who always votes for Loghain at the Landsmeet.  He's speaking to Sighard in the tavern and offers up the excuse of 'his wife's health' as to why he isn't in his bannorn taking care of matters there when Sighard calls him out on it.

[sylvanaerie]

Oh I hate that guy, though what he has to say on Howe (he's the one saying nobody liked him, right?) is funny. He's such a wuss. His voice actor did a perfect job with him... equal mix of whiny and annoying.

 

But this .... the way these nobles are for the most part is why I run off with Alistair and keep him out of there. I think I might do that even with this mod as a Cousland Mage. She wants nothing to do with it. In the end, Fergus will return to highever and she and Alistair can go there. It will be nice. But she's out of it and not looking back. Yes, I think that is my next character. I wish that mod could do a marriage that is not noble. Sigh.... but running off together sort of suits them I think. They both want to get away from all of it.

 

I have to admit that's a huge part of why I have my warden run off with Grey Warden Alistair (or keep him a warden if I don't romance him).  He's too much of a sweetheart to subject to that life, that he wants no part of, and didn't choose for himself.  Anora wants it so damn bad, she can have it.  

 

I think in the particular instance of the Cousland mage run, she was going to subtly try to help improve things for mages in Ferelden, being one herself, even if she couldn't claim it.  (She pretended to be a warrior herself and since I went AW/SH, she could fake it).

[ShadowLordXII]

It feels like this is just another one of those silly debates where there is not enough evidence and WOG leaves it so it looks like Loghain was not part of it or goes vague on it.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. Loghain did enough damage and he was in league with Howe. Being in league with the man who slaughtered the Couslands leaves a taint on him that cannot be scrubbed away. Even if he did not sanction it, which I believe he didn't as I don't see that as his style, I think pairing up with him while he knows about it says enough about loghain that it doesn't really matter or not. It's a line he was willing to cross, to get in bed (sorry TSM for that image) with someone so nasty and evil.

 

But we just don't have enough to go on to say yes, loghain knew or sanctioned it. We have WOG statements which imply he didn't but even then I don't know if that's a credible source given there have been retcons and there's the whole matter of things that come out after the original game which work very hard at gaining sympathy for loghain. So there's a pattern there to make him more likable or to sort of gear you toward excusing his action or making him complex enough that you can at least understand them and not just outright hate him.

 

Loghain is going to remain a character that is unclear. People will choose to keep him alive or kill him based on whatever rationale they are working off or even the character they are running. He, alistair, and morrigan are clearly designed that way. You are for or against them. You like or dislike them.

 

His involvement or lack of involvement with the cousland slaughter is almost irrelevant by the end of the game given he's done enough other things (slavery anyone?) that cast a long shadow over him. One more thing to the pile is not going to change much. He still did what he did and people will still either justify his actions, dismiss them or use them as a reason to chop off his head. That's just the nature of the character and the mechanics of the game. If he was meant to be involved with the Cousland slaughter at some point, I suspect that was retconned because even loghain sympathizers would feel, after playing that origin, that he was a monster because nobody is cool with what happened to the Couslands. They are nice. There is nothing not nice about them. In fact, now I'm inclined to think that given how carefully loghain's crimes are handled, how they are very intentionally designed so that people who want to excuse them can justify it pretty easily, barring the slavery though we've seen that justified in the threads as well, I suspect that his involvement was scrubbed because that would be the nail in his coffin for everyone. I don't think there is one among us that would be cool with knowing he was involved even if it was only to be killing bryce rather that what it was.

 

Bryce is likeable. Bryce is the only noble that really comes off as a honorable and good guy. So if Loghain was involved, given all the later material and even WOG that seems to put loghain in a better light, I'm betting it was intentionally changed so people would have a harder decision, much like the DR, otherwise it's a choice nobody takes and the point of having it is kind of wasted which also makes the stupidity around Riordan not telling you about the death consequence when trying to make loghain a warden even more stupid. It would break the game for some because most would be miffed that riordan tries to make loghain a warden knowing only a warden with the taint can kill the archdemon yet he didn't bother to mention this when trying to save him. It's the sort of thing that everyone would cry foul at the minute they learn of the death consequence. Most of us would be thinking 'you couldn't have told me this before I lopped off his head? You didn't realize that I did not know?' As it is, it comes off like that now to a degree, but if nearly every player wanted him dead because he slaughtered the couslands (which you just cannot excuse that) then the whole situation in the landsmeet would be beyond enraging. People would cry foul. And if they lost alistair to sparing loghain to be the one to die killing the archdemon without having a chance to persuade otherwise, I think they'd be very pissed as well. So if loghain was involved in the cousland slaughter, there are many reasons to retcon it.

 

Whether or not Loghain actually was involved probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I just felt like the question still had a lot of room to debate over considering just how well Loghain benefited from the massacre. As I said before, we can't know just how involved Loghain really was, but suggested that he had absolutely nothing to do with it is a stretch.

 

At best, he probably only planned for Howe to delay Bryce so that Cailan would be alone in the upcoming confrontation over Orlais. But Howe decided to kill the Couslands and when Loghain got back from Ostagar, he turned a blind eye to Howe's butchery because he needed a vital ally. It wouldn't make Loghain innocent as he does basically reward Howe for treason and betrayal, but his hands wouldn't be quite as filthy with blood since he didn't plan for Bryce to die, just to be removed from the equation.

 

At worst...he pulled a "Red Wedding" with Loghain being to Howe what Tywin was to Walder Frey and Roose Bolton in GOT. Howe kills off the only other powerful family that could oppose Loghain with Howe taking all of the public blame while most folk remain unaware of any involvement that Loghain may have had.

 

However, due to the vagueness of WOG...we'll probably never know the answer for sure. Which is kind of fun in a sense.

[gottaloveme]

Perhaps it was a case of Howe saying I have a solution if you'll back it and Loghain saying just get it done. A big arse assumption I know but hey!

 

Presupposing Loghain's knowledge and involvement with Cailan and Eamon, he was very cunning with his dirty workers/witnesses. A blood mage apostate. The Orlesian wife of his poisoned enemy (hoped for dead enemy). A dodgy elf spy. Fugitive grey wardens. And lastly, but most especially dirty, Arl Rendon Howe. Everyone knew he was a nasty piece of work and so, again, less than creditable.

[TEWR]

But to suggest that Loghain had absolutely nothing to do with the massacre of the Couslands is...a stretch.

 

Not really.

 

The timing of the event with Ostagar and Loghain's alliance with Howe makes this extremely fortuitous for Loghain. In fact, it's far too fortuitous for several reasons and additionally considering that Loghain was preparing for a "confrontation" with Cailan concerning his desire for an alliance with Orlais. According to Gaider, the poisoning of Eamon was done in preparation for this confrontation so that Cailan would enter the situation having "already lost."

 

Bah, I reject the poisoning of Eamon being done before Ostagar. I've gone over that before.

 

As for his alliance with Howe, that happened after Ostagar. Howe took advantage of the presence of the Darkspawn in the south to usurp Highever from Bryce, no doubt from a mentality that it rightfully belonged to the Howes -- as the two families had been rivals during the Occupation and, IIRC, longer then that.

 

Howe then instilled his own men in Highever, naming himself Teyrn, before going to Denerim to answer Vaughn's call for reinforcements to deal with a problematic riot in the Alienage. Using the chaos there, he took Vaughn out of the equation, imprisoned him, and said he was one more death from the riot. He then named himself Arl of Denerim as well.

 

When Loghain came to the Landsmeet to get the Bannorn to rally under him, and they refused because they were shortsighted fools, Loghain found it necessary to seek a political aide. Seeing the amount of terrain he commanded, he picked Howe. Howe's lands that he had now stolen were crucial to maintaining the military advantage, and Loghain had to allow Howe to keep them for the moment so as to not risk antagonizing him. If he had been antagonized, a potential third front would've been waged.

 

Yet, if we assume that Loghain had nothing to do with the massacre, then that means that he didn't have a plan for when the only other teryn in the nation decided to back the king

 

Look at it from this way.

 

If Cailan had proved amenable to wisdom, there would've been no confrontation except regarding the Celene issue (if that popped up)/Orlesian reinforcements, which Loghain didn't know about. Had that popped up, I doubt that even Bryce would've supported the king. Bryce is no fool. He's a smart guy. He would've seen the issues this would represent, despite how he and his wife have traveled to Orlais -- no doubt as diplomatic agents to instill peace.

 

Peace is one thing. Handing the nation over to the Orlesians again in a bloodless coup is another matter.

 

If Cailan had proved amenable to wisdom, then they all would've been on equal footing. Remember, he was supposed to be at Ostagar himself. Barring some mishap that resulted in his death there, they'd probably be on equal ground.

 

And had Cailan died, Bryce would've seen firsthand how hopeless the situation was and, without knowing of Alistair (of his existence/if he was even alive) he probably would've backed Loghain. He's an ardent royalist, but that doesn't extend very well if no heir is in sight.

 

1) Bryce Cousland was a loyalist to the crown

 

Though he had his own doubts about whether or not the darkspawn invasion was a blight, he still obeyed the king's orders and rebuked Howe for speaking ill of the king. His family also never bowed to the Orlesians during the rebellion and fought to restore Ferelden's freedom and rightful heir to the stolen throne. 

 

Bryce respected the king and held duty to the country as necessary for a lawful citizen. Without substantial proof to back Loghain's suspicions (Which loghain himself could never find until long after Cailan was dead), Bryce would see no reason to betray or stand against the king. Opposed by the only other teryn in the country, Loghain's attempt to curtail Cailan would be in danger.

 

As Corker pointed out, being a loyalist doesn't mean being a sycophant.

 

2) Bryce Cousland was well-beloved and regarded by the bannorn

 

Not only is Bryce a war-hero; Not only is the head of one of the most powerful houses in Ferelden; But he was so well-loved by the bannorn that many actually preferred for him to be king rather than Cailan. This sounds like an individual who had more political clout than Eamon or Loghain combined. 

 

If Loghain was actually going confront Cailan, he would also need to have the bannorn supporting him. A prospect made far more difficult is Bryce Cousland opposed Loghain. When one Teryn argues against another Teryn, who do the lesser lords support? The one that they trust or the one who pays them and I could see Bryce beating out Loghain on both scores though he'd only need the former.

 

Eliminating Bryce and his family also means eliminating your most powerful potential opponent. It means that when Loghain confronts Cailan, the bannorn may not back their king so readily.

 

Loghain doesn't have much political clout to begin with.

 

Also, what Corker said again (I have a feeling I'll say that for the next few things as well)

 

Loghain was adamant for keeping his daughter as ruling queen of Ferelden. So much so, that he even rejects Maric's bastard son on the grounds that he'd be a puppet for Eamon (valid concern, but hypocritical coming from Loghain's mouth).

 

Also not really. It's not hypocritical at all. Anora backed him as Regent by not denying it, and he's not using her to further his own agendas by having her be the rubber stamp. He's the one calling the shots at the moment, because at the moment they're in a war and he's the best poised to deal with the combat aspects. The problem arises from the person calling the political shots, which is Howe. He's the one manipulating Loghain, no doubt saying that Anora's unfit to rule at this time because her mind is clouded from Cailan's death, so that Loghain won't turn to Anora for aid.

 

Think Grima Wormtongue.

 

Actually, I think we do. There's some ambient conversation between Howe's troops in the kitchen when you go to Rescue the Queen. I don't recall the exact wording, but Highever was not a happy place, and they were glad to be away from it. They were hated, although I don't know if there was violent resistance.

 

I believe there was a rumor that said as much re: violent resistance. You're right that the people there hated Howe's men.

[Xetykins]

I really just wanna know where howe got his balls for Highever and expected to get away with it. An Arl whom it seems nobody likes but the couslands murdering an entire family and grabbing titles that only the crown could grant. Unless ofc he knows that the king wouldnt be a problem and would be disposed of soon. He is too ambitious to risk the hangman's noose, dispite his obvious hatred and jealousy towards the Couslands. Even without the escape of og hn origin and the king would never know what happened, he is still the one who could grant those titles.

I think that the marriage between Howe and Loghain was made before Ostagar, and the tyrnir was the pre-nuptial agreement. The Arling in Denerim was a welcome unforseen addition.

Just my own 2 cents.

[Cobra's_back]

I really just wanna know where howe got his balls for Highever and expected to get away with it. An Arl whom it seems nobody likes but the couslands murdering an entire family and grabbing titles that only the crown could grant. Unless ofc he knows that the king wouldnt be a problem and would be disposed of soon. He is too ambitious to risk the hangman's noose, dispite his obvious hatred and jealousy towards the Couslands. Even without the escape of og hn origin and the king would never know what happened, he is still the one who could grant those titles.

I think that the marriage between Howe and Loghain was made before Ostagar, and the tyrnir was the pre-nuptial agreement. The Arling in Denerim was a welcome unforseen addition.

Just my own 2 cents.

 

I'm with you on this. It didn't make sense for him to attack without Loghain in his camp.

[Mike3207]

In the letter to Rendon Howe, the letter tells Howe by his captain that he and his men are nervous about the plan. The quote"if even one person gets wind of the plan and tells Cousland it will mean your head on a plate", unquote.

 

The only way the attack works is if it's kept a total secret, everyone is killed, and Howe presents the nobles with a fait accompli. It's not like Loghain would have stopped Cailan from shortening Howe's head if he had survived Ostagar.

[Xetykins]

It's not like Loghain would have stopped Cailan from shortening Howe's head if he had survived Ostagar.

Exactly my point. He would never have done it iF there was no solid and absolute guarantee he keeps his head attached to his shoulders. And conveniently.....the king died :-) It seems like everything was intricately planned before Ostagar massacre. Everything.

[Mike3207]

Exactly my point. He would never have done it iF there was no solid and absolute guarantee he keeps his head attached to his shoulders. And conveniently.....the king died :-) It seems like everything was intricately planned before Ostagar massacre. Everything.

Cailan was responsible for his own death. No one told him to go on the front lines, Loghain did his best to talk him out of it.

[Xetykins]

@Mike3207
When the compass points north then it's north. It's not actually out of Loghain's league you know, considering the amount horrible things he has done :-) If he was goodly good then it would be soo hard for some people to reach that conclusion. But he is not.

But as as I said its.just my 2 cents. So lets just agree to disagree. Its not something you can change anytime soon. And im certainly not trying to change yours :-)

[Mike3207]

Is it RtO where the man who gives you the key implies that Cailan expected to die on the battlefield? I know I heard it in game... recently I think. Somebody says that he either thought he might die or expected to die... I think it's even implied that it would be in a glorious battle fighting the darkspawn or ending the blight. Something like that. I am sure somebody said this but I don't remember who or where. Does anyone remember this conversation? I'm sure I wasn't dreaming it... For some reason I think it had to do with getting the key to his chest but I'm not even sure of that. It kind of struck me when I heard it but I must have not really been all that focused on the game at the time. But I know I heard something somewhere in the game that alluded to this or stated it clearly. Anyone?

It's before you get to RTO-you have a encounter with Elric Maraigne. He tells you, 'even with his bluster, Cailan knew there would be  no victory at Ostagar"

 

Or words to that effect.

[Mike3207]

I think it was referenced with even had Loghain's men not turned their backs on us, there would be no victory. He's telling you Cailan knew it was a unwinnable battle from the start, but he had to put a brave face on for the men.