551 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Big thing is that all 3 leaders of the sides of the Orlesian Civil War are not innocent and have despicable things.  Personally, I think it's going to come down to what each person's goals are if they win the war.  Here's what I think of each person so far:
 
Briala seems more focused on freeing the elves and getting them a home.  She doesn't seem to have a goal on what to do after that I think and I think that is important.  To me she has the best immediate moral ground for winning the war but her lack of planning for what would happen afterwards would probably lead to chaos.
 
Gaspard seems very patriotic  and honorable but he is more militaristic in how he deals with problems it looks like.  I also think that he if did win he'd tried to invade Fereldan again to regain Orlais' old territory
 
Celene would probably go back to her old plan of trying to get Orlais more progressive. She's ruthless and scheming in getting what she wants but is pretty much has good goals for people.  She reminds a bit like Bhelen from DA:O where he was ruthless and scheming as well but had the good of his people in mind.  I actually think she would try to free the elves from being second class citizens eventually or at least get Orlais progressive enough that they would be willing to accept such an idea.

Interesting point. Gaspard does in some ways remind me of harrowmont(honourable but old fashioned) whereas Celene does remind me of Bhelen(progressive but deeply unpleasant). Briala is the joker in the mix as someone comes across as having been the naive pawn of fellassen and used dupe of Celene. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to play out as a carbon copy of orzammar with unpleasant progressive being clear best choice.

Glad it has turned out that way as before hand I expected clear good vs evil and instead I found Celene's horribleness overwhelming the progressive vibe value whilst I crossed my fingers that the honourable Gaspard wasn't going to meet his ends despite his traditionalist vibe.

[Mistic]

He talks about them as if they were all the same and even sort of explains that as the reason the Dalish won't help them. He says they are all pompous idiots. He says none of them care about the city elves. He says they all don't care about the present. And yeah I would condemn a fictional character for generalizing an entire people as pompous idiots who only care about the past, because even if many Bioware fans have that opinion, that opinion is still wrong. Even among the Dalish the belief that they universally don't care about the present or future and are slavishly devoted to the past is simply untrue. It's the root of the whole conflict between Merrill and Marethari. The Keeper thought it was best to leave some secrets in the past because they are dangerous enough to threaten their children. Said as much in both Origins and DA 2.

 

Yes it's a gross generalization. In his defense, he put a disclaimer at the beginning, , as if to say that there may be differences (accepting "strays" seem to be one of them), but in general he shares that opinion. Also, he never says "all of them". His statements are generalizations, the same as when Orlesians call Fereldans dog-lovers. Because maybe not every Fereldan likes dogs, but no one can deny they're a very important part of their culture.

 

Still, so far DA portrayals of Dalish have provided enough room for Felassan to say such opinions. In-universe, he knows more of the Dalish than we do, so who's to say we aren't the ones trying to generalize exceptions as rules? However, he had ulterior motives during the quest, so who knows.

 

The Merrill-Marethari conflict was interesting when applied to Clan Virnhen. More isolationist than any other clan we've met so far, but heavily pro-Merrill in regards to lost lore. Who holds the "true Dalish spirit"? I suppose that we won't be able to know it for sure until we witness an Arlathvehn.

 

It wasn't just about the Civil war or the mage/templar war, if Gaspard gets the throne, he intends to go to war with Ferelden, Nevara and crush the last of the Dales too IIRC

 

Ah, but Gaspard's justification didn't have anything to do with those countries. His justification was "the best for Orlais", same as Celene's, not "the best for the world".

[Former_Fiend]

As a point, Celene fully planned on going to war with Nevarra, too. The whole reason she wanted to marry Cailen was to add Ferelden's military strength to Orlais so she could drive Nevarra back.

 

Which made me laugh when I saw it; fully justified Loghain's "Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons" tirade in Return to Ostagar.

[Ianamus]

 

Your comment: "She had absolutely no choice. Were she to flee the country assassins would be sent to kill her so that she was no longer a threat to whoever wanted to claim the throne, since she was next in line. She says this herself in the book."

 

Actually the book said her cousin would marry her off. 

 

And her numerous other rivals at the time who were not Gaspard? As mentioned earlier, lady Mantillon would have killed her that very day herself if Celene failed to impress her.

[Cobra's_back]

And her numerous other rivals at the time who were not Gaspard? As mentioned earlier, lady Mantillon would have killed her that very day herself if Celene failed to impress her.

 

He was going to marry her off to a Ferelden noble no need for anyone to kill her. She would be out of the game. If she truly believes she is going to be killed, she needed to be honest with Briala or cut Briala off. Remember it is not her place to keep this information from Briala. Celene now has a dangerous enemy. I don't know if the game will give us three choices a,b,or c. I would take the Elves. The Game has been extremely destructive. I'm sure with the nobles actively backstabbing each other the commoners just suffer.

 

In the meantime Queen Anora is working on a University that allows commoners to attend. Go Ferelden!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As a point, Celene fully planned on going to war with Nevarra, too. The whole reason she wanted to marry Cailen was to add Ferelden's military strength to Orlais so she could drive Nevarra back.

 

Which made me laugh when I saw it; fully justified Loghain's "Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons" tirade in Return to Ostagar.

Ah, Loghain. The more we learn about Orlais, the more justifiable your views are.

[LobselVith8]

They dont try to actively convert because they fear the wrath of the human nations.

 

That must explain their willingness to harbor runaways from the Chantry controlled Circles, follow a religion that's been criminalized by the Chantry, and why they have no issue with their own people leaving their society to follow their own path.

 

They look down upon the city elves the "Flat Ears" and have said in every encounter in the games how when they regain a homeland they will "Teach the flatears the way of the Elven and our past" etc etc.. Sort of sounds like they will expect them to learn ancient elven culture to me, don't think they will appreciate the flat ears maintaining the culture they developted under the humans and maintaining their Andrastism (however it spelt) Will be amusing to see how they decide to run things since the Dalish consider themselves the old Nobility of the Dales, so if they want the Flat Ears to join them I guess the Dalish expect to be the ones in charge and rule over them.

 

By "they", you actually mean "some" of them, since we've encountered a myriad of Dalish who have no issue with non-Dalish elves, and don't expect their brethren from the cities to abandon their heritage or culture. The elven Warden isn't treated as any less of a person by Elora, Athras, Cammen, Lanaya, or some others in the Dalish camp; it's not as though every Dalish is like Sarel, who is exhibiting hostility because he recently lost his wife to the werewolves. Merrill also views city elves as elves, and doesn't try to convert anyone to the elven pantheon; in fact, it's the religiously Andrastian Anders who pushes his views on her instead.

 

Also, Lanaya pointed out the Keepers are usually descended from the nobility who governed the Dales.

 

Personally my PC's would rather tell The Dalish to shove it, help the city elves obtain their own state (Would probably have to be a protectorate if it has any chance of survival) And leave the Dalish to their wandering for their 2 millenium old dead culture and artifacts in their forests.

 

So your PC would condemn all the Dalish because some of them look down on the city elves, but your PC doesn't condemn the city elves when some of them look down on the Dalish as savages, and even condemn the city elves who try to live outside the Alienage as 'flat ears'?

[Lenimph]

Actually most people didn't support her killing Briala's parents and then sleeping with her for 20 years never telling her the truth. 

 

As for Briala her original plan wasn't a bad one. What part of lobbying is wrong? Is it equal to murdering someone's parent? Now things have changed and sides will have to be taken.

I don't outright support it but it's what I would have done in her situation. Obviously it was selfish but it's pretty clear Celene never had any intention of being married off to some man, or dying.  I can respect that.

 

If she told Briala immediately after the fact she would have never seen her again regardless of the fact that she potentially gave up a lot to keep her alive in the first place, or was she better off just having Briala killed too, is that better then lying to her? Infact apparently she was ok with never seeing her again as long as she was still alive as she did tell Briala to run away. Obviously filled with remorse, she had no intention of even living with Briala after the fact, but she came back.

[LobselVith8]

I have to agree on that. Maybe "religious conversion" is too strong of a word, but every clan we have met so far stresses the importance of keeping the ancient elvhen lore and every mention of the City Elves reeks of condescension, even if it's just a bit by the friendliest characters.

 

That's the whole point of being Dalish, but it's not something the People try to imposed on every elf, in comparison to how the Chantry wants to spread the Andrastian faith to the four corners of the globe.

 

I love elvhen lore and I can't wait to play as a Dalish Inquisitor, but that attitude (how did Fenris call it? "Smug sense of superiority") won't help if an independent country for the elves is created.

 

You mean Fenris' line when he verbally attacked Merrill for trying to be friendly to him, as one in a series of dialogues where he twists every single thing she says into the worst way possible? You might want to try an example where the city elf isn't exhibiting a smug sense of superiority over the Dalish elf next time you want to criticize the Dalish. Just a thought.

[Lenimph]

Getting a real sense of deja vu here. Except people are actually being civil to the OP...Interesting. 

OP actually read the book.

[LobselVith8]

Briala isn't a Ghandi or Martin Luther King though. Shes just as much a master manipulator as Celene, she well entrenched in the game. Firstly she put the marker on Ser Michel in the first place after the warehouse incident, despite him being the loyal guardian of her lover. And then she called the marker in at a moment that destroyed everything the man held dear, his honour and duty and loyalty to his Empress. She killed Ser Michel to further he cause just as easily as Celene killed her family. And remember Celene was supposed to kill all the elves including Briala. She couldn't do that to the one she loved. Briala on the other hand didn't hesitate.

 

Briala wants to help the elves, which is why she chose to claim the Eluvians for the elves of Orlais, since she felt Celene would forsake them if it risked inciting the nobility against her. Also, Ser Michel killed innocent elves to become a chevalier, so I'm not feeling too sympathetic about her calling in that debt; unlike the innocent people he murdered in cold blood to become a chevalier, she didn't actually kill him by calling in that favor.

[Mistic]

By "they", you actually mean "some" of them, since we've encountered a myriad of Dalish who have no issue with non-Dalish elves, and don't expect their brethren from the cities to abandon their heritage or culture. The elven Warden isn't treated as any less of a person by Elora, Athras, Cammen, Lanaya, or some others in the Dalish camp; it's not as though every Dalish is like Sarel, who is exhibiting hostility because he recently lost his wife to the werewolves. Merrill also views city elves as elves, and doesn't try to convert anyone to the elven pantheon; in fact, it's the religiously Andrastian Anders who pushes his views on her instead.

 

I think the real problem is condescension more than blatant agression, since agression is easy to spot and sets apart the nasty fellows from the rest. However, as I pointed out, condescension and too much use of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy can be grating for City Elves such as Fenris. It was one of the main points of discussion between him and Merrill, apart from the whole blood magic thing.

 

But yeah, condemning all Dalish because of some idiots it would be like saying all Templars are oppressing Alrik wannabes, all mages are dangerous madmen like Quentin, the Chantry should be destroyed because of the Exalted Marches, Orlesians are all racists and rapists, every Tevinter magister is a blood mage slaver... Ok, taking the forum into account, maybe it wasn't the best example around.

[LobselVith8]

I think the real problem is condescension more than blatant agression, since agression is easy to spot and sets apart the nasty fellows from the rest. However, as I pointed out, condescension and too much use of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy can be grating for City Elves such as Fenris. It was one of the main points of discussion between him and Merrill, apart from the whole blood magic thing.

 

Merrill never said that the city elves weren't true elves, so I don't think that's a good example to make; he took offense at anything she said, simply because he didn't like her. She makes friends with elves in the Alienage, she thinks Kelder should die for murdering elven children, and she takes a role in reassuring her friend Nyssa when it's clear Huon poses a threat to her. I know you don't dispute that it's simply an issue for some Dalish, but I simply don't think Fenris' interactions with Merrill are a good case. I also think it's a problem that is exhibited from some Dalish and city elves - to look down on others who don't adhere to how they think the elves should be, which was also seen from the hostile reaction from the city elves to Bann Soris marrying a human (in that specific ending).

 

But yeah, condemning all Dalish because of some idiots it would be like saying all Templars are oppressing Alrik wannabes, all mages are dangerous madmen like Quentin, the Chantry should be destroyed because of the Exalted Marches, Orlesians are all racists and rapists, every Tevinter magister is a blood mage slaver... Ok, taking the forum into account, maybe it wasn't the best example around.

 

I think it's tied more to the Alienage elves living under human rule and adopting a religion that they blame for being the reason the Dales was invaded in the first place that explains the hostile views from some of them; similar to how some city elves take offense when their own try to live outside the Alienage and among the humans.

[Mistic]

You mean Fenris' line when he verbally attacked Merrill for trying to be friendly to him, as one in a series of dialogues where he twists every single thing she says into the worst way possible? You might want to try an example where the city elf isn't exhibiting a smug sense of superiority over the Dalish elf next time you want to criticize the Dalish. Just a thought.

 

Well, Fenris was a bit too angry at everything. He had his reasons, though. However, Merrill really deserved it when she was chastising him for not visiting the alienage, suggesting he didn't care about the other elves and thinking that just by having lived in the alienage for some years she could know better than Fenris.

 

But no, mentioning Fenris was just to have a good name for the attitude I was talking about, the attitude that transpires heavily from the Dalish quotes I posted in the same text you were quoting.

[LobselVith8]

Well, Fenris was a bit too angry at everything. He had his reasons, though. However, Merrill really deserved it when she was chastising him for not visiting the alienage, suggesting he didn't care about the other elves and thinking that just by having lived in the alienage for some years she could know better than Fenris.

 

But no, mentioning Fenris was just to have a good name for the attitude I was talking about, the attitude that transpires heavily from the Dalish quotes I posted in the same text you were quoting.

 

I don't see how Merrill deserved it when, at this point, she's put up with his crap for three years. Every olive branch she extended to him was slapped right back at her. I also think it's disingenuous for Fenris to act as though Merrill knows nothing about their plight when they have that conversation once she's spent years in the Kirkwall Alienage. He was a slave of a Tevinter Magister, not a life-long resident of the Alienage; they both come from a foreign background and look upon Alienage culture with their own unique cultural perspective.

[Cobra's_back]

I don't outright support it but it's what I would have done in her situation. Obviously it was selfish but it's pretty clear Celene never had any intention of being married off to some man, or dying.  I can respect that.

 

If she told Briala immediately after the fact she would have never seen her again regardless of the fact that she potentially gave up a lot to keep her alive in the first place, or was she better off just having Briala killed too, is that better then lying to her? Infact apparently she was ok with never seeing her again as long as she was still alive as she did tell Briala to run away. Obviously filled with remorse, she had no intention of even living with Briala after the fact, but she came back.

 

 

If she told her the truth she would have at least been respected and to some extent trusted. Now she has neither and she groomed an enemy.  

[Mistic]

I don't see how Merrill deserved it when, at this point, she's put up with his crap for three years. Every olive branch she extended to him was slapped right back at her. I also think it's disingenuous for Fenris to act as though Merrill knows nothing about their plight when they have that conversation once she's spent years in the Kirkwall Alienage. He was a slave of a Tevinter Magister, not a life-long resident of the Alienage; they both come from a foreign background and look upon Alienage culture with their own unique cultural perspective.

 

True. Still, Fenris had no obligation to befriend Merrill. It was pretty clear they were never friends. Fenris could (or not) be Hawke's friend or rival. So probably they had to put up with each other only when Hawke took them out. Also, the argument wasn't who knew Kirkwall's alienage better, but Merrill suggesting that if Fenris didn't go, it meant that he didn't care about his people and, in consequence, implying that she cared more.

 

But we are getting sidetracked here. My point is, there's a lot of condescension among the Dalish, and TME just confirmed it. Not always with malice, like with those jerks from Clan Virnehn, but it's present in one way or another in every clan we've met and in many pieces of lore (especially lore written by Keeper Gisharel). Of course, it's understandable given their culture, and it's still better than open agression, but that would be a point of friction in any possible City Elf-Dalish alliance. It has been already, in fact.

[Cobra's_back]

As a point, Celene fully planned on going to war with Nevarra, too. The whole reason she wanted to marry Cailen was to add Ferelden's military strength to Orlais so she could drive Nevarra back.

 

Which made me laugh when I saw it; fully justified Loghain's "Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons" tirade in Return to Ostagar.

 

Good thing Cailen died before Celene could marry him. Ferelden won't need to help them with Nevarra.

[Heimdall]

Interesting point. Gaspard does in some ways remind me of harrowmont(honourable but old fashioned) whereas Celene does remind me of Bhelen(progressive but deeply unpleasant).

The comparison isn't quite apt, thou it occurred to me too. Celene's progressiveness is more than just a show, she genuinely desires reform. A wise history professor once told me that reformer have the unenviable task of dealing with both those stubborn individuals that view all change as inherently dangerous and those who naively assume change is wonderful and rush it forward without considering the consequences. To be a reformer is to find a way to change society while keeping it from tearing itself apart in the process. It's not a simple, easy, or popular path, but I respect Celene for taking it. Bhelen desired power above all else. His progressiveness was little more than a smokescreen. That isn't Celene.

Harrowmont wasn't half as vicious or ruthless as Gaspard can be. Harrowmont would have served Bhelen had he let him, because he would never betray his king. Gaspard is quite willing to betray Celene if it means getting the thine for himself. Gaspard admits to seeking power. Harrowmont never sought power.

[Cobra's_back]

The comparison isn't quite apt, thou it occurred to me too. Celene's progressiveness is more than just a show, she genuinely desires reform. A wise history professor once told me that reformer have the unenviable task of dealing with both those stubborn individuals that view all change as inherently dangerous and those who naively assume change is wonderful and rush it forward without considering the consequences. To be a reformer is to find a way to change society while keeping it from tearing itself apart in the process. It's not a simple, easy, or popular path, but I respect Celene for taking it. Bhelen desired power above all else. His progressiveness was little more than a smokescreen. That isn't Celene.

Harrowmont wasn't half as vicious or ruthless as Gaspard can be. Harrowmont would have served Bhelen had he let him, because he would never betray his king. Gaspard is quite willing to betray Celene if it means getting the thine for himself. Gaspard admits to seeking power. Harrowmont never sought power.

 

She didn't achieve it. Reform does take time and one has to be careful not to upset the general pop. She didn't do this. Sending an Elf to the University isn't reform. She should have sold the idea of using Elves as city guards because they have night vision. Start ground up not up down. I wasn't surprised she failed. Getting the Elves in civil jobs would have been the way to go. 

[wright1978]

The comparison isn't quite apt, thou it occurred to me too. Celene's progressiveness is more than just a show, she genuinely desires reform. A wise history professor once told me that reformer have the unenviable task of dealing with both those stubborn individuals that view all change as inherently dangerous and those who naively assume change is wonderful and rush it forward without considering the consequences. To be a reformer is to find a way to change society while keeping it from tearing itself apart in the process. It's not a simple, easy, or popular path, but I respect Celene for taking it. Bhelen desired power above all else. His progressiveness was little more than a smokescreen. That isn't Celene.
Harrowmont wasn't half as vicious or ruthless as Gaspard can be. Harrowmont would have served Bhelen had he let him, because he would never betray his king. Gaspard is quite willing to betray Celene if it means getting the thine for himself. Gaspard admits to seeking power. Harrowmont never sought power.

I don't respect Celene overly. While I think she likes the notion of reform she actually is far too weak to make it happen. Gaspard tweaks her nose with a play and she throws it out the window to burn elves? Her weakness is the root cause of the civil war. So yeah Bhelen was more ruthless and hence why his progressiveness worked(if you believe epilogue slides)

Gaspard has of a degree of desire for the throne but largely the rebellion is rooted in the notion of him doing what is best for Orlais. Hence why he offers to marry Celene before it all kicks off militarily.

[Cobra's_back]

True. Still, Fenris had no obligation to befriend Merrill. It was pretty clear they were never friends. Fenris could (or not) be Hawke's friend or rival. So probably they had to put up with each other only when Hawke took them out. Also, the argument wasn't who knew Kirkwall's alienage better, but Merrill suggesting that if Fenris didn't go, it meant that he didn't care about his people and, in consequence, implying that she cared more.

 

But we are getting sidetracked here. My point is, there's a lot of condescension among the Dalish, and TME just confirmed it. Not always with malice, like with those jerks from Clan Virnehn, but it's present in one way or another in every clan we've met and in many pieces of lore (especially lore written by Keeper Gisharel). Of course, it's understandable given their culture, and it's still better than open agression, but that would be a point of friction in any possible City Elf-Dalish alliance. It has been already, in fact.

 

 

Nothing the dev can't fix if they are option C. 

[rubynorman]

I don't see a reason for my Inquisitor to help Bria wholeheartedly unless it's for gaining access to the Eluvians. Bria had a choice to end the Civil War right there a but she chose the Fen'Harel way, many innocent people will be killed so her Elves can be (maybe) free. I don't agree with that choice. She turned her back on humanity, so why should I care about the Elves? ( Unless my PC is an elf)I know it is not fair for the elves to be 2nd class citizens but it's still better than slavering, and there should be a more peaceful way to fight for their civil rights but she chose a bloody war.

[Heimdall]

She didn't achieve it. Reform does take time and one has to be careful not to upset the general pop. She didn't do this. Sending an Elf to the University isn't reform. She should have sold the idea of using Elves as city guards because they have night vision. Start ground up not up down. I wasn't surprised she failed. Getting the Elves in civil jobs would have been the way to go.

I never said she succeeded. I honor the attempt, though the failure was not that Celene did too little or did wrong.

Actually, it was referenced several times in the book that she's been easing taxes on elven merchants, trying to give them a fair shake in the market. She also references plans for eventual discussion with the Divine about letting elves join the priesthood and the Templars. And yes, opening the University's doors to elves is reform, a rather big one at that. She's trying to open doors and opportunities for the elves.

The city guard? Really? Cause putting weapons in elven hands and ordering Orlais to trust them with the defense of their homes would go off without a hitch... That's hardly "from the ground up". The whole point is to proceed gradually so as to avoid that kind of backlash.

[Cobra's_back]

I never said she succeeded. I honor the attempt, though the failure was not that Celene did too little or did wrong.

Actually, it was referenced several times in the book that she's been easing taxes on elven merchants, trying to give them a fair shake in the market. She also references plans for eventual discussion with the Divine about letting elves join the priesthood and the Templars. And yes, opening the University's doors to elves is reform, a rather big one at that. She's trying to open doors and opportunities for the elves.

The city guard? Really? Cause putting weapons in elven hands and ordering Orlais to trust them with the defense of their homes would go off without a hitch... That's hardly "from the ground up". The whole point is to proceed gradually so as to avoid that kind of backlash.

 

Yes really. Think about it.

 

 

 

Two sell them on the fact that they have special gifts. " Night Vision". Ask yourself this if they were so afraid of Elves with weapons how come we already seen them as trained Bard? Remember Katirel. She was hired at a high price. This is not a hard one to sell and people will start liking them. If they have trouble doing this they could get Loghain to teach them since he used "Night Elves" as a separate team of Archer. That was a joke. Loghain hates Orlais. This is not hard to sell. Most emigrants made their way by joining the police force. It builds trust.

 

 

 

Your comment: "And yes, opening the University's doors to elves is reform, a rather big one at that."

 

This would anger the commoners and nobles.