551 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Yes really. Think about it.

Two sell them on the fact that they have special gifts. " Night Vision". Ask yourself this if they were so afraid of Elves with weapons how come we already seen them as trained Bard? Remember Katirel. She was hired at a high price. This is not a hard one to sell and people will start liking them. If they have trouble doing this they could get Loghain to teach them since he used "Night Elves" as a separate team of Archer. That was a joke. Loghain hates Orlais. The point is this is not hard to sell. Most emigrants made their by joining the police force. It builds trust.

A single armed elf in a dubious profession isn't the problem, the Empress of Orlais wasn't giving Katriel her knives, the problem is that you're expecting the Nobles and Commoners of Orlais to accept armed bands of elves roaming the streets at night with imperial sanction. You don't think that's a hard sell? The Night Elves were a military unit under one man's command operating separately from the rest of the army. That's an ocean of difference from a civilian police force expected to police humans. It would put elves in a position of authority over human civilians. Do you seriously think that would go over smoothly?

This would ****** off the commoners and nobles.

And it did, but frankly less so than your suggestion would.

[Heimdall]

I don't respect Celene overly. While I think she likes the notion of reform she actually is far too weak to make it happen. Gaspard tweaks her nose with a play and she throws it out the window to burn elves? Her weakness is the root cause of the civil war. So yeah Bhelen was more ruthless and hence why his progressiveness worked(if you believe epilogue slides)
Gaspard has of a degree of desire for the throne but largely the rebellion is rooted in the notion of him doing what is best for Orlais. Hence why he offers to marry Celene before it all kicks off militarily.

Please, try to take in the complexity of the political situation before you make snap judgments.

Her "weakness" is only pragmatism. Her reforms won't last if Gaspard overthrows her and at that moment she was bleeding support. That's not to mention the blow to Orlais should it come to civil war. She lost support with the feather stunt and popular unrest concerning her elf favoring policies was only making matters worse. The play only displayed the spread popular discontent with such policies thanks to Gaspard's efforts. She wasn't "throwing it out the window" when she marched on Halamshiral, she was trying to consolidate the Crown's position, silencing Gaspard's rumor mill and showing that rebellion would not be tolerated. Far from throwing it away, Celene was trying to hold onto all she had accomplished for Orlais and the elves over the years. For that, she was willing to burn a city. Still not ruthless enough for you?

Gaspard offered to marry Celene because it would make him Emperor without the need to resort to messy things like assassinations, coups, and civil wars. Certainly he wants what is best for Orlais, and if that wasn't a new age of expansionism I might respect him for it.

[Cobra's_back]

A single armed elf in a dubious profession isn't the problem, the Empress of Orlais wasn't giving Katriel her knives, the problem is that you're expecting the Nobles and Commoners of Orlais to accept armed bands of elves roaming the streets at night with imperial sanction. You don't think that's a hard sell? The Night Elves were a military unit under one man's command operating separately from the rest of the army. That's an ocean of difference from a civilian police force expected to police humans. It would put elves in a position of authority over human civilians. Do you seriously think that would go over smoothly?

And it did, but frankly less so than your suggestion would.

 

Not by themselves. You could have them in teams of one human & one elf guard. This elf can see what the human can't at night I can't see the downside. Pairing them with a human. 

 

I don't think the Night Elves is an ocean of difference. Civilian police get trained and come in pairs when patrolling. They are not bands of Elves roaming the street. 

[Morroian]

He was going to marry her off to a Ferelden noble no need for anyone to kill her. She would be out of the game. 

 

If he became Emperor, but there were other claimants to the throne who wouldn't have married her off. Plus from what we know I highly doubt it would stop Lady Mantillon anyway. The most likely possibility was that Celene would have wound up dead.

[wright1978]

Please, try to take in the complexity of the political situation before you make snap judgments.

Her "weakness" is only pragmatism. Her reforms won't last if Gaspard overthrows her and at that moment she was bleeding support. That's not to mention the blow to Orlais should it come to civil war. She lost support with the feather stunt and popular unrest concerning her elf favoring policies was only making matters worse. The play only displayed the spread popular discontent with such policies thanks to Gaspard's efforts. She wasn't "throwing it out the window" when she marched on Halamshiral, she was trying to consolidate the Crown's position, silencing Gaspard's rumor mill and showing that rebellion would not be tolerated. Far from throwing it away, Celene was trying to hold onto all she had accomplished for Orlais and the elves over the years. For that, she was willing to burn a city. Still not ruthless enough for you?

Gaspard offered to marry Celene because it would make him Emperor without the need to resort to messy things like assassinations, coups, and civil wars. Certainly he wants what is best for Orlais, and if that wasn't a new age of expansionism I might respect him for it.

 

It certainly wasn't pragmatism. She lashed out because she was embarrassed/angry and fell into a trap even Briala her servant would have spotted a mile off. Burning the elves wasn't ruthless it was a foolish stunt as was her riding with them in ceremonial armor.

 

She's still be empress even if she married Gaspard. Her complete refusal to strengthen her position via marriage is something that Briala even queries and a major reason why Gaspard is in a position to threaten her. So what if Gaspard wants to expand, that's as worthy of respect as any other agenda.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It certainly wasn't pragmatism. She lashed out because she was embarrassed/angry and fell into a trap even Briala her servant would have spotted a mile off. Burning the elves wasn't ruthless it was a foolish stunt as was her riding with them in ceremonial armor.

 

She's still be empress even if she married Gaspard. Her complete refusal to strengthen her position via marriage is something that Briala even queries and a major reason why Gaspard is in a position to threaten her. So what if Gaspard wants to expand, that's as worthy of respect as any other agenda.

Burning people alive is always ruthless.

[Oasis_JS]

Please, try to take in the complexity of the political situation before you make snap judgments.

Her "weakness" is only pragmatism. Her reforms won't last if Gaspard overthrows her and at that moment she was bleeding support. That's not to mention the blow to Orlais should it come to civil war. She lost support with the feather stunt and popular unrest concerning her elf favoring policies was only making matters worse. The play only displayed the spread popular discontent with such policies thanks to Gaspard's efforts. She wasn't "throwing it out the window" when she marched on Halamshiral, she was trying to consolidate the Crown's position, silencing Gaspard's rumor mill and showing that rebellion would not be tolerated. Far from throwing it away, Celene was trying to hold onto all she had accomplished for Orlais and the elves over the years. For that, she was willing to burn a city. Still not ruthless enough for you?

Gaspard offered to marry Celene because it would make him Emperor without the need to resort to messy things like assassinations, coups, and civil wars. Certainly he wants what is best for Orlais, and if that wasn't a new age of expansionism I might respect him for it.

 

 

 

going off topic or into a new topic. not into the decision you two were happening..

t
he Elf part though..at the end..even thought she was accomplishing  things for the Elvens ..she was also just using them in the game still.( I toke it that way..she didnt think she was using them ) .  She saw  the whole mirror thing as a elite army..to use.. just give them some nice homes..to make them happy , ( it will all go away). That is what Briala does not want..  going off topic ^^ 

  I agree she was big case of pragmatism,  she didnt follow theories..she had set motions to follow because she see it falling that way,  heck thats why she kill off the servants and briala parents.. she was too much set on a logical way of doing things..  by killing all the servants.. its make sense in her head.. although she spare Briala because of her own loves.. i guess that could be weakness .or part of the game she would use love to bend things her way too. with out realizing how she was hurting Briala.. or is that more being selfish..

lol sorrry i dont think i make sense anymore hahah

 

[wright1978]

Burning people alive is always ruthless.

 

There was certainly a lack of compassion in her action. However despite her pretense that it was an ends justify the means action, it wasn't imo. Better words to describe her actions there would be rash, impetuous, petty, vindictive.

[Heimdall]

It certainly wasn't pragmatism. She lashed out because she was embarrassed/angry and fell into a trap even Briala her servant would have spotted a mile off. Burning the elves wasn't ruthless it was a foolish stunt as was her riding with them in ceremonial armor.
 
She's still be empress even if she married Gaspard. Her complete refusal to strengthen her position via marriage is something that Briala even queries and a major reason why Gaspard is in a position to threaten her. So what if Gaspard wants to expand, that's as worthy of respect as any other agenda.

A stunt? She was putting down a rebellion against her rule. She was silencing the rumors Gaspard was using to weaken her position. Yes, it turned out to be a trap, but it was certainly nothing if not a pragmatic course of action. The reason Gaspard knew it would work was because he knew Celene would have little choice but to crush the elven rebellion in its infancy if she wanted to stop his malicious rumors. Should she have seen it coming? Maybe, but her actions were motivated by a pragmatic concern for her empire and strengthening her position, not embarrassment.

Yes, because starting a war with Ferelden totally wouldn't open Orlais for a Nevarran invasion and the like. Its a disastrous course of action. Orlais isn't the uncontested super power it was a century ago. It has to be mindful of its neighbors. Blithely trying to turn back to clocks isn't going to help anyone.

[Heimdall]

Not by themselves. You could have them in teams of one human & one elf guard. This elf can see what the human can't at night I can't see the downside. Pairing them with a human. 
 
I don't think the Night Elves is an ocean of difference. Civilian police get trained and come in pairs when patrolling. They are not bands of Elves roaming the street.

You're still talking about the Empress arming elves and ordering the Orlesian people to trust them with their safety and security. And still you have elves in positions of authority or human civilians. They wouldn't give a damn about marginally better night vision. If you don't understand how either of those things would generate considerable backlash, I think we're done here.

Military unit, segregated from the rest of the army =/= integrated civilian police force. You're missing the point, the point is that you're asking the Orlesian people to accept two things: Elves armed by imperial authority and elves with police power over human civilians.

...And you think that would generate less backlash than allowing elves to attend university as students?

[wright1978]

A stunt? She was putting down a rebellion against her rule. She was silencing the rumors Gaspard was using to weaken her position. Yes, it turned out to be a trap, but it was certainly nothing if not a pragmatic course of action. The reason Gaspard knew it would work was because he knew Celene would have little choice but to crush the elven rebellion in its infancy if she wanted to stop his malicious rumors. Should she have seen it coming? Maybe, but her actions were motivated by a pragmatic concern for her empire and strengthening her position, not embarrassment.

Yes, because starting a war with Ferelden totally wouldn't open Orlais for a Nevarran invasion and the like. Its a disastrous course of action. Orlais isn't the uncontested super power it was a century ago. It has to be mindful of its neighbors. Blithely trying to turn back to clocks isn't going to help anyone.

 

Hardly a rebellion against her rule.It was a local dispute over police brutality that was completely mismanaged by the rulers under her control. The pragmatic solution was already being pursued by Briala. I don't see how her response would have in any way strengthened her position. I'd see her likely to be mocked even more for her overblown response.

Her actions were completely driven by her own personal embarrassment at her private life being the object of mockery imo and hence her decision to force march there immediately and personally attend.

 

Gaspard is noted for his military mind. I certainly wouldn't consider his plans necessarily disastrous.

[wright1978]

She didn't achieve it. Reform does take time and one has to be careful not to upset the general pop. She didn't do this. Sending an Elf to the University isn't reform. She should have sold the idea of using Elves as city guards because they have night vision. Start ground up not up down. I wasn't surprised she failed. Getting the Elves in civil jobs would have been the way to go. 

 

I don't particularly have an issue with the notion of the goal of getting an elf admitted to University as a symbol. However the scene in the book made me cringe and left me very much of the impression that if that had been how she'd been going about it no wonder it had been a failure and undermined her rule.

[Cobra's_back]

It certainly wasn't pragmatism. She lashed out because she was embarrassed/angry and fell into a trap even Briala her servant would have spotted a mile off. Burning the elves wasn't ruthless it was a foolish stunt as was her riding with them in ceremonial armor.

 

She's still be empress even if she married Gaspard. Her complete refusal to strengthen her position via marriage is something that Briala even queries and a major reason why Gaspard is in a position to threaten her. So what if Gaspard wants to expand, that's as worthy of respect as any other agenda.

 

The burning of the elves looked as if it was a knee jerk reaction on her part. She didn't even let her men rest. It was just too easy for Gaspard to get the upperhand on her.

[Cobra's_back]

Burning people alive is always ruthless.

 

Yes it is. In this case she was also foolish. She fell for a trap and she didn't even let her men rest after riding them hard. She was played.

[Heimdall]

The burning of the elves looked as if it was a knee jerk reaction on her part. She didn't even let her men rest. It was just too easy for Gaspard to get the upperhand on her.

Didn't let her men rest?  After what?  Burning the elves?  Of course she didn't, she wanted her army out of the city as soon as possible to avoid any more raping, pillaging, and looting than was unavoidable when an army takes a city.  She wasn't expecting Gaspard to be so bold, which was foolish on her part I'll grant.

[Heimdall]

Hardly a rebellion against her rule.It was a local dispute over police brutality that was completely mismanaged by the rulers under her control. The pragmatic solution was already being pursued by Briala. I don't see how her response would have in any way strengthened her position. I'd see her likely to be mocked even more for her overblown response.

Her actions were completely driven by her own personal embarrassment at her private life being the object of mockery imo and hence her decision to force march there immediately and personally attend.

 

Gaspard is noted for his military mind. I certainly wouldn't consider his plans necessarily disastrous.

A rebellion against imperial Orlesian authority is a rebellion against her rule.  It became a problem because the local ruler refused to deal with it and every day Celene tolerated it was a day she looked weaker.  There's nothing overblown about her response considering the wider political situation.  If you really need to boil a complex political situation down to one woman's petty embarrassment so that you can continue to pan Celene, I'd say this conversation has gone far enough.

 

He's a competant soldier, I've never seen him hailed as a military genius though.  Ferelden may be weakened by the Blight, but its not defenseless and Nevarra has been rising as a powerful rival for decades.  That Gaspard thinks he can plow through them with brute force without recourse to diplomacy doesn't leave me with a great impression of his tactical mind.

[wright1978]

A rebellion against imperial Orlesian authority is a rebellion against her rule.  It became a problem because the local ruler refused to deal with it and every day Celene tolerated it was a day she looked weaker.  There's nothing overblown about her response considering the wider political situation.  If you really need to boil a complex political situation down to one woman's petty embarrassment so that you can continue to pan Celene, I'd say this conversation has gone far enough.

 

He's a competant soldier, I've never seen him hailed as a military genius though.  Ferelden may be weakened by the Blight, but its not defenseless and Nevarra has been rising as a powerful rival for decades.  That Gaspard thinks he can plow through them with brute force without recourse to diplomacy doesn't leave me with a great impression of his tactical mind.

Yeah think i'll politely agree to completely disagree with each other's opinion at this point

[Cobra's_back]

Didn't let her men rest?  After what?  Burning the elves?  Of course she didn't, she wanted her army out of the city as soon as possible to avoid any more raping, pillaging, and looting than was unavoidable when an army takes a city.  She wasn't expecting Gaspard to be so bold, which was foolish on her part I'll grant.

 

 

1. Your comment: "They wouldn't give a damn about marginally better night vision. If you don't understand how either of those things would generate considerable backlash, I think we're done here."

 

Ans. We should be done here I don't agree with you at all. 

 

2.Your comment: "Of course she didn't, she wanted her army out of the city as soon as possible to avoid any more raping, pillaging, and looting than was unavoidable when an army takes a city. "

 

 

Ans: She shouldn't have even been there. She knew Gaspard was after her. She could have just sent her men.

 

It is silly to be concern with looting when she burned them alive. You can only die once.

 

As for the rest, she was advised by Michel to give the men a rest "check the book". She should have listened or not attend the burning. She is the reason so many of her men perished. Had they gotten rest and she was not there Gaspard may not have attacked.

 

Instead we have very tired men trying to protect an Empress who decided she need to handle a local matter an got all her men killed.

[Heimdall]

Ans: She shouldn't have even been there. She knew Gaspard was after her. She could have just sent her men.

She knew Gaspard was after the throne. She didn't think he had reached the point where he would attack her openly with an army. She wanted to strengthen her position by personally seeing ot the end of the rebellion. However, I never disputed that this was a mistake. I said it was foolish.
 

It is silly to be concern with looting when she burned them alive. You can only die once.
 
As for the rest, she was advised by Michel to give the men a rest "check the book". She should have listened or not attend the burning. She is the reason so many of her men perished. Had they gotten rest and she was not there Gaspard may not have attacked.
 
Instead we have very tired men trying to protect an Empress who decided she need to handle a local matter an got all her men killed.

Please, read the book yourself. She didn't have them all tied to stakes and burned. Celene was riding through the streets trying to keep the abuse of the defeated populace to a minimum. She did not kill all the elves in Halamshiral and don't you for a moment consider claiming she did.

Celene involved herself in a local matter because the local lord wasn't handling it himself. Gaspard remarks to him later that he was weak because he let the elven rebellion run wild, hoping it would get it out of its system and settle back into normalcy all on its own. The whole reason it became Celene's problem was because the lord of Halamshiral refused to handle it.

I don't claim Celene was right in not letting her men rest. I'm only telling you why she didn't: She didn't want to let them loose in Halamshiral any longer than she had to and she wasn't expecting an attack.

[Cobra's_back]

She knew Gaspard was after the throne. She didn't think he had reached the point where he would attack her openly with an army. She wanted to strengthen her position by personally seeing ot the end of the rebellion. However, I never disputed that this was a mistake. I said it was foolish.
 
Please, read the book yourself. She didn't have them all tied to stakes and burned. Celene was riding through the streets trying to keep the abuse of the defeated populace to a minimum. She did not kill all the elves in Halamshiral and don't you for a moment consider claiming she did.

Celene involved herself in a local matter because the local lord wasn't handling it himself. Gaspard remarks to him later that he was weak because he let the elven rebellion run wild, hoping it would get it out of its system and settle back into normalcy all on its own. The whole reason it became Celene's problem was because the lord of Halamshiral refused to handle it.

I don't claim Celene was right in not letting her men rest. I'm only telling you why she didn't: She didn't want to let them loose in Halamshiral any longer than she had to and she wasn't expecting an attack.

 

I did read it. She should have given them a rest. The reason not to is irrational. I already explained why. The men needed it. 

 

Your comment: "don't you for a moment consider claiming she did"

 

I don't understand why you need to make these comments. Let's say i would not welcome another reply from you. 

 

I say this fits well:

 

"think i'll politely agree to completely disagree at this point"

[Lenimph]

She's still be empress even if she married Gaspard. Her complete refusal to strengthen her position via marriage is something that Briala even queries and a major reason why Gaspard is in a position to threaten her. So what if Gaspard wants to expand, that's as worthy of respect as any other agenda.

Maybe she didn't want to have to surrender her independence to a man she didn't like. What a foolish notion! Seriously Gaspard did a terrible job at courting Celene if that was what he truly wanted.

[Milan92]

Having read the book makes me wonder if we meet Celene in the game in her winter palace instead of Val Royeaux. Same goes for Gaspard.

[Cobra's_back]

Maybe she didn't want to have to surrender her independence to a man she didn't like. What a foolish notion! Seriously Gaspard did a terrible job at courting Celene if that was what he truly wanted.

 

Would she have to surrender? I thought he saw her as an equal? Didn't he say they would be an unbeatable team?

 

" Maybe she didn't want to have to surrender her independence to a man she didn't like." She was interested in marrying King Cailen. Sure she would have had the upper hand but she would not have had the independence she currently has.

 

"Seriously Gaspard did a terrible job at courting Celene if that was what he truly wanted." I agree but I don't think he was offering love. 

[Wolfen09]

Celene screwed up by making it a personal affair and not marrying gapsard , gaspard screwed up by being too impatient and openly attacking her multiple times starting a civil war which in turn will give the elves an even bigger chance to cause chaos which in turn will give any outsiders looking for an opportunity to possibly invade....  Both to me are ill fit to be rulers, and i would rather have the option of a 3rd party ruling in the game instead of an orzamar type thing...

[Cobra's_back]

Celene screwed up by making it a personal affair and not marrying gapsard , gaspard screwed up by being too impatient and openly attacking her multiple times starting a civil war which in turn will give the elves an even bigger chance to cause chaos which in turn will give any outsiders looking for an opportunity to possibly invade....  Both to me are ill fit to be rulers, and i would rather have the option of a 3rd party ruling in the game instead of an orzamar type thing...

 

 

Same here.